Abuse from Christianity toward saints in a local church

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Hope

I strongly suspect that 99% of WL's over the top harsh words toward Christianity was due to wrongs suffered by him and others with whom he was associated. He did suffer some absolutely terrible things in China at the hands of the Japanese because of certain clergymen. But he was wrong to then go after others who were loyal to the Christianity system.

I long had been tolerant of WL's harsh criticism towards what he believed to be religious systems. I should confess that in my earlier days, I was completely on board with the condemnation towards Catholicism following the Revelations trainings -- "Yeah, that's right, let 'em have it." I did consider WL to be like John the Baptist or one of the prophets.

Looking back, however, WL did have a greater responsibility as a leader with the most influential ministry to the LC's. He set the tone for all other ministers. His attitudes were replicated in them. The whole system eventually was diseased with judgmental attitudes producing Laodicean prides and prejudices, which ironically he later blamed on the LC's themselves, calling us all "Moo-Cows" and the like.

Still, however, I really did not become aware of the real situation until the recent quarantine was on the horizon, and I began to study our history back in the 80's. WL may have been too harsh towards all "outsiders," but it was nothing compared to the way he treated "insiders."

Hence, all the mechanisms for "self-destruction" were in place -- appointing certain Blendeds, appraising the ministry above scripture, creating a closed society, condemning both outsiders and any "concerned" insiders -- and thus duplicating the course of history of the "other" exclusives.

The tragedy is that so many precious saints in nearly al the LC's suffered solely due to their association with WL. Connections with his ministry brought pain and shame upon so many others. What a shame if this whole dynamic was driven for decades by his own bitter reaction to Japanese aggressions in China, partly due to certain "Benedict Arnold's" among the Chinese clergy.

[Hope]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The tragedy is that so many precious saints in nearly al the LC's suffered solely due to their association with WL. Connections with his ministry brought pain and shame upon so many others. What a shame if this whole dynamic was driven for decades by his own bitter reaction to Japanese aggressions in China, partly due to certain "Benedict Arnold's" among the Chinese clergy.

Ohio,

I put into bold print a part of your post. I agree with it in some ways. Most did not suffer for deeds they did though some were foolish and brought on their problems through their own actions.

My impression of the motivation of most who attacked saints in local churches was religious zeal, pride and competition and fears due to the Sun Moon type of crowd lurking around and fear of orientals etc. I almost never heard anyone say they were upset with WL or the local churches because he had declared Christianity poor etc. I have mainly assumed that his poor poor Christianity talk effected those in the local churches very much in line with your statement from your post, "The whole system eventually was diseased with judgmental attitudes producing Laodicean prides and prejudices, which ironically he later blamed on the LC's themselves, calling us all "Moo-Cows" and the like."

I cannot say that I never heard an attack from Christianity that referenced a negative quote about Christianity given by WL. I just cannot recall one. Maybe you have. But at this point my experience does not confirm that outsiders paid much attention to his teaching about religion, Christianity etc.

Hope

[aron]

Originally Posted by Hope

Ohio,

I almost never heard anyone say they were upset with WL or the local churches because he had declared Christianity poor etc. I have mainly assumed that his poor poor Christianity talk effected those in the local churches

I cannot say that I never heard an attack from Christianity that referenced a negative quote about Christianity given by WL. I just cannot recall one. Maybe you have. But at this point my experience does not confirm that outsiders paid much attention to his teaching about religion, Christianity etc.

Hope

You miss the point. Maybe the "opposing" christians never heard this kind of talk directed at them, and thus were not responding in kind. But God heard it, and it offended Him greatly, and He allowed the recompense to come. "Judge not, that ye be not judged". God heard the judgment coming out of the LC's, and He allowed it to be reciprocated.

[Hope]

Originally Posted by aron

You miss the point. Maybe the "opposing" christians never heard this kind of talk directed at them, and thus were not responding in kind. But God heard it, and it offended Him greatly, and He allowed the recompense to come. "Judge not, that ye be not judged". God heard the judgment coming out of the LC's, and He allowed it to be reciprocated.

Aron,

Did God judge the LSM, WL and the local churches? I do believe so. Was it because of WL saying "Poor Poor Christianity?" I doubt it. Much of Christianity is pretty much of a waste land. Consider the Catholic Church. Consider liberal Methodism and many of the ultra narrow fundamental denominations. Today divorce, pornographic addiction etc. is so sadly as prevailing among Evangelical Christians as in society as a whole. We have seen one TV big time religious personality after another go down in scandal.

I have shared the gospel with many over the years. The most common excuse is "what about the Christians or the Churches." I see the salt that society needs lacking in most Christians. This is not a put down of "Christianity" but is a heartfelt mourning for a return, a revival a renewal or whatever phrase you would use. Me too!! I do not excuse my luke warmness. As it says in Romans and I apply this to myself, Rom 13:11-14, 11 And this do, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. 12 The night is almost gone, and the day is at hand. Let us therefore lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us behave properly as in the day, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual promiscuity and sensuality, not in strife and jealousy. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts. NASB

Am I sitting at home alone? No. Do I reach out to other believers? Yes. Do I work with other believers? Yes. Do I give of my money to other believers and other workers for the Kingdom of God? Yes.

Do I say all is well in the Body of Christ? No.

Here are a few verses on the other side of judge not.

John 7:24, 24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Phil 1:8-10, 9 And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment, 10 so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ;
NASB


Hope

1 Thess 5:20-22, 21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; 22 abstain from every form of evil. NASB

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Hope

Did God judge the LSM, WL and the local churches? I do believe so. Was it because of WL saying "Poor Poor Christianity?" I doubt it. Much of Christianity is pretty much of a waste land.

Hope,
Yes. I too believe God judged the LC and Yes, it is equally true much of Christianity was a waste land but Lee's problem is the sin of PRIDE...being better than everyone else because he thought he had it all figured out. He puffed up the saints with his vision and his brand of doing things. His brand was not necessarily wrong. It was refreshing to go to meetings that did not resemble the same ole' church routine. Our Praise/Worship singing was living. We were living...at least in the meetings. Who knows how many true saints were truly living outside the walls of the meeting halls !? The messages were also refreshing. To me everything was NEW. I went from being a Catholic to being an LCr. I didn't know anything else.

I believe God removed the lampstand because:
1) the Lee and the LC became more important than GOD Himself.

2) they prided themselves in snubbing and looking down at 'poor-poor Christianity' instead of giving them a drink of Fresh water and giving them Manna from heaven and a morsel of the Bread of Life.

3) The messages became stale food after a few years. They turned into recycled messages..broken records...no newness of LIFE in Christ Jesus..and still are !!! UNBELIEVABLE !!!
What many of us did instead was TELL them what was WRONG with their way of doing things !!!

That is my personal opinion why the LC died.
GOD HAVE MERCY on them !! AND GOD HAVE MERCY ON US that we don't become like them now that we Have seen the LIGHT !!

1 Thess 5:20-22, 21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;abstain from every form of evil. NASB

P.S. I fixed your quote Hope...HOPE you didn't mind

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Hope

I cannot say that I never heard an attack from Christianity that referenced a negative quote about Christianity given by WL. I just cannot recall one. Maybe you have. But at this point my experience does not confirm that outsiders paid much attention to his teaching about religion, Christianity etc.

I seem to remember a quote on Jim Moran's site, for example, where he quoted WL saying "Satanic Judaism, Christless Protestantism, and Babylonian Catholicism," from the Life-Study of Revelation. Does anyone else remember this, or other such quotes. Since the Moran Site is now owned and shut down by LSM, I can't confirm.

For WL to condemn Judaism as Satanic (based on Rev 2.9), all of Christianity as Christless (based on Rev. 3.20), and all of Catholicism as the Great Harlot (based on Rev. 19.2) was known outside of the Recovery. Many people knew how WL interpreted these verses and how WL implied that he and only he and the LC's were the testimony of the Lord, pleasing to the Master.

Probably the hallmark verses for me in this discussion was contained in II Tim 1.7-8, "God has not given us a spirit of cowardice, but of power ... to not be ashamed of the testimony of the Lord, nor of me His prisoner." This verse provided endless motivation for me and the other "faithful" to stick it out with WL to the end, bearing all manner of shame and criticism from without.

Had it not been the events surrounding PL and JI in the late 80's, which I only learned years afterwards, I probably would still be clinging to that old stronghold.

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I seem to remember a quote on Jim Moran's site, for example, where he quoted WL saying "Satanic Judaism, Christless Protestantism, and Babylonian Catholicism," from the Life-Study of Revelation. Does anyone else remember this, or other such quotes. Since the Moran Site is now owned and shut down by LSM, I can't confirm.

Yes, Moran was very much bothered by such comments.

I do recall it.

More famously, so was Walter Martin.
http://www.contendingforthefaith.com...estantism.html

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I seem to remember a quote on Jim Moran's site, for example, where he quoted WL saying "Satanic Judaism, Christless Protestantism, and Babylonian Catholicism," from the Life-Study of Revelation. Does anyone else remember this, or other such quotes.

Yes. I do. I was at that Revelation training. I was only 21 yrs young and it affected me deeply. In my head, people in Judaism, Prostantism and Catholicism had KOODIES. I remember going to my parents funeral. It was a Catholic funeral even though they got saved. I stayed sitting down through the entire mass in 'protest' to the religious system.

I did not even want to be around my relatives because they were 'Catholics'.

THAT is how that kind of TEACHING AFFECTED ME !!
What LEE failed to do is teach and explain to the saints not to be 'holier than thou' around other Christians...Catholics or protestants..or heathens even !!

Good heavens! JESUS rebuked the KNOW IT ALL RELIGIOUS PEOPLE. Catholics and Protestants NEVER mistreated ME. Who was I all of a sudden to snub my nose and look down at them ??!!

Had it not been the events surrounding PL and JI in the late 80's, which I only learned years afterwards, I probably would still be clinging to that old stronghold.

Well ya see there ! God used PL and JI to push people out of dead religion.

A few years ago some friends of mine were kicked out of a neighborhood church. They were moving up in 'leadership' when they spoke up. Thus they were first told to 'go on sabbatical' & step down and 'shut up'. Hmmm...seems like I've seen that happen elsewhere !

Well a few weeks ago, we were talking about the fact if THEY had never been kicked out and would have continued to 'move up the ladder', they would not have grown closer to the LORD. Their eyes would not have opened up.

See how God uses evil for good? Isn't He WONDERFUL ? Praise You Lord JESUS. You always know how to turn darkness into light, our mourning into dancing.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Hope

I almost never heard anyone say they were upset with WL or the local churches because he had declared Christianity poor etc.

Hope,
Those who came out of DEAD denominations or non-denominations believed Christianity was dead if they were truly hungry for the LIVING WORD OF GOD! I came out of DEAD Catholicism. And others probably came out of other dead denominations.

BUT THOSE who 'touched' the church and were already LIVING STONES...LIVING SAINTS, probably did not stick around very long. And within the confines of the LC never openly criticized the ministry. But over the years, we have heard stories of people having gone to LC meetings and did not like them. And I have also met some people who went to a few meetings and LOVED them but never went back. I am currently corresponding with a Brother who went to a few meetings in OKC back in 1976. He LOVES Watchman Nee's works and has a gazillion of them. He also has a number of Witness Lee books and loves them too! Go figure..But he only went to a few meetings, even took hospitality. I just started corresponding with him so still asking questions. I 'met' him through another message board.

Look, I know lots of Christians who 'church hop'. It's no big deal to them. When asked why they aren't seen 'at church' anymore, they simply say "We're going somewhere else". The other party says: Oh, we're sorry you left us but we hope you get fed there.
End of story. YA think WE LCrs would EVER SAY ANYTHING LIKE THAT to saints we knew left

[awareness]

I can't believe that DCP is defending Lee's outlandish statement that:

“Judaism is satanic, Catholicism is demonic, and Protestantism is Christless,”

But okay, let me slip into that mentality for a moment :

“Judaism is satanic, Catholicism is demonic, and Protestantism is Christless, and Lee's church of the recovery is man worship.”

And the fact that they feel they have to defend Lee is proof that they are man (flesh) worshipers.

[Paul Cox]

Hope,

As a young person entering the "church-life" in Texas, in the seventies, these words still ring in my ear: "In the recovery we_________(have life, are living, have the vision, have light) but in Christianity_________." The voice that rings loudest in my ear is that of Benson Philips. Next is yours.

Reading your post about Christianity being a vast waste land sent shivers up my spine and leads me to believe that you still don't get it when it comes to talking about "Christianity." I say that with all due respect.

I agree with CMW. The problem with the Local Church is not that they didn't have logical justification for criticizing Christianity. Who can't see their faults? The problem is that rather than being able to see the beam in their own eyes, they looked at themselves by comparison and found themselves quite good. That's pride, and yes, they have been judged for that pride which covers a broad spectrum of subjects and historic actions on the part of Witness Lee, the Local Church, and that heinous DCP.

Roger

[Hope]

Originally Posted by Roger

Hope,

As a young person entering the "church-life" in Texas, in the seventies, these words still ring in my ear: "In the recovery we_________(have life, are living, have the vision, have light) but in Christianity_________." The voice that rings loudest in my ear is that of Benson Philips. Next is yours.

Reading your post about Christianity being a vast waste land sent shivers up my spine and leads me to believe that you still don't get it when it comes to talking about "Christianity." I say that with all due respect.

I agree with CMW. The problem with the Local Church is not that they didn't have logical justification for criticizing Christianity. Who can't see their faults? The problem is that rather than being able to see the beam in their own eyes, they looked at themselves by comparison and found themselves quite good. That's pride, and yes, they have been judged for that pride which covers a broad spectrum of subjects and historic actions on the part of Witness Lee, the Local Church, and that heinous DCP.

Roger

Hello there Brother Roger,

All this time I thought you were a West Coast brother.

Your reference about "in the recovery ...but in Christianity ... Does not sound like something I would have said. I can never recall referring to the Local Churches as "the recovery." I would hear that from saints from the Far East and many times I stated that to say that meant they were a denomination. I often warned the young people in Dallas, in particular the leaders among the young people, that unless the Lord had mercy that we would become another denomination. (And it happened!)

Now did I call a spade a spade? I was probably more frank than Benson. I was never sympathetic to any religious system that kept men from Christ. Thankful Jane gave a report about my critique of my visit to Rome and said she still laughs about it.

I do not apologize for the errors of the local churches nor do I cover over their good points. I trust that is and was my attitude toward any group of Christians.

But ...

Just last night I was spending time with one of the new believers from Nepal. A convert from Hinduism. We were sharing on the power of the Cross, the Word of the Cross and Christ Crucified from 1 Cor. chapter 1. He asked us about the crosses that Catholics wore and images he had observed. This was confusing to him. In his spirit or conscience he did not feel at peace. What should I have told him? I spoke very frankly regarding what it was to believe in Jesus. I spoke very frankly regarding images. I never sugar coat the images of Catholics nor that system of error.

I did not state that we had the truth or attempt to set our little fellowship up as something special.

Let us have more fellowship over this matter. It is not an easy subject. Just as the leaders and followers in the LSM never want to admit a mistake or short coming so it seems some only want to paper over mistakes made by christianity.

I am at work and must go. But I really would like to say more and be sure I am being clear.


Hope

[aron]

Originally Posted by Hope

I did not state that we had the truth or attempt to set our little fellowship up as something special.

I apologize if I mis-read or mischaracterized your statements or experiences. I am certainly qualified to talk about my feeling about sitting in a meeting listening to the speakers discuss how poor other christians were.

But how much that overlaps your own experiences and responses I'm probably not qualified to say, especially from such a distance. I apologize if I overstepped my bounds.

[Paul Cox]

Originally Posted by Hope

Hello there Brother Roger,

All this time I thought you were a West Coast brother.

Your reference about "in the recovery ...but in Christianity ... Does not sound like something I would have said. I can never recall referring to the Local Churches as "the recovery." I would hear that from saints from the Far East and many times I stated that to say that meant they were a denomination. I often warned the young people in Dallas, in particular the leaders among the young people, that unless the Lord had mercy that we would become another denomination. (And it happened!)

Now did I call a spade a spade? I was probably more frank than Benson. I was never sympathetic to any religious system that kept men from Christ. Thankful Jane gave a report about my critique of my visit to Rome and said she still laughs about it.

I do not apologize for the errors of the local churches nor do I cover over their good points. I trust that is and was my attitude toward any group of Christians.

But ...

Just last night I was spending time with one of the new believers from Nepal. A convert from Hinduism. We were sharing on the power of the Cross, the Word of the Cross and Christ Crucified from 1 Cor. chapter 1. He asked us about the crosses that Catholics wore and images he had observed. This was confusing to him. In his spirit or conscience he did not feel at peace. What should I have told him? I spoke very frankly regarding what it was to believe in Jesus. I spoke very frankly regarding images. I never sugar coat the images of Catholics nor that system of error.

I did not state that we had the truth or attempt to set our little fellowship up as something special.

Let us have more fellowship over this matter. It is not an easy subject. Just as the leaders and followers in the LSM never want to admit a mistake or short coming so it seems some only want to paper over mistakes made by christianity.

I am at work and must go. But I really would like to say more and be sure I am being clear.


Hope

My wife and I went to the West Coast when Witness Lee gave the call for young people to go there for "training." We were there for two years.

I certainly would never state or imply that we shouldn't speak the truth when pointing out error. I still do that today. But I've found that my attitude in doing so has changed dramatically (for the better, I think).

Before, I held the common Living Stream attitude that "they" are in a poor and degraded situation, and I (as a representative of THE truth) was there to rescue them. It's that superior attitude that springs from pride.

By the Lord's mercy, the further I get away from LSM I have more of a fear and trembling towards those who are in some form of degradation, fearing that they not get the impression that I am proud, and there to save them.

My background is Catholic and I find myself talking to people from that denomination all the time. I sense a certain liberty in not being shackled with the burden of having to turn them from error to Witness Lee's body of truth. Inwardly I sense more of a true compassion and tender loving care for them, realizing that it’s only by the grace of God that I am not still there. At the same time, I am open to the Lord speaking to me through them. That was not my experience when I was in "God's Best."

Roger

[aron]

Originally Posted by Roger

Reading your post about Christianity being a vast waste land sent shivers up my spine and leads me to believe that you [Hope] still don't get it when it comes to talking about "Christianity." I say that with all due respect.

I agree with CMW. The problem with the Local Church is not that they didn't have logical justification for criticizing Christianity. Who can't see their faults? The problem is that rather than being able to see the beam in their own eyes, they looked at themselves by comparison and found themselves quite good.

I agree. Paul rebuked Peter, and then reproved the "bewitched" Galatians. Paul also censored the Corinthians severely. John excoriated the assemblies in Asia. But neither Paul nor John decided they'd had enough with the degraded "christianity" they found themselves part of, and then went and started their own, supposedly "pure" organizations, based on some scriptural ground or another. Surely they could have spun off some new improved sect, and many sheep would have followed. But they wisely abstained.

The cracks about Judaism and Protestantism and Catholicism are based on scripture, and as such are accurate exegeses to a degree. But they come from an abomination ten times worse than the intended targets. The splinter and beam analogy holds well here.

Remember the two men praying, and the first one says, "God, thank You I'm not like that sinner over there"? He actually was technically correct. The other man was, in fact, a sinner. But the first man thought that his condemnation of a fellow sinner could somehow stand before God. He left with nothing.

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by aron

The cracks about Judaism and Protestantism and Catholicism are based on scripture, and as such are accurate exegeses to a degree. But they come from an abomination ten times worse than the intended targets.

Based on scripture.
Accurate exegeses.


Ten times worse.


hmmmm

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

... all the mechanisms for "self-destruction" were in place -- appointing certain Blendeds, appraising the ministry above scripture, creating a closed society, condemning both outsiders and any "concerned" insiders -- and thus duplicating the course of history of the "other" exclusives.

... What a shame if this whole dynamic was driven for decades by his own bitter reaction to Japanese aggressions in China, partly due to certain "Benedict Arnold's" among the Chinese clergy.

Very astute, and well put. Of course there is always the peril of oversimplifying matters to "one final cause", over and above all the rest. Yet this one cause is worth being held up and examined, carefully, if for no other reason that Lee insisted that the old man had been thoroughly expunged from his being, that "sola scriptura" alone was his guide, and so forth. Had he been honest and admitted that he was a fallen man like the rest, God could have covered him. But he insisted he was pure from these taints, and thus they remained hidden until the flowers and fruits came forth for all to see, and dragged down who knows how many souls in their wake.

This is similar to the oriental "shaming" discussion I've seen elsewhere on the web; it is a practice of the natural man, ingrained in culture, which Lee insisted was over, finished, through, kaput, and therefore it remained submerged and operating quietly for all those years upon everyone who believed his insistence that we were somehow "pure".

The lesson for me is: if you say that you see, your blindness remains. Only if you admit you are blind, and naked, then God can heal and cover you. Lord, have mercy on us all.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

The lesson for me is: if you say that you see, your blindness remains. Only if you admit you are blind, and naked, then God can heal and cover you. Lord, have mercy on us all.

Aron, this comment reminds me of all those times we talked about whether we "see the vision." The catch phrase "THE VISION" in the view of LC'ers is defined by whether they will stick around or not, no matter how bad it gets.