Abuse from Christianity toward saints in a local church

[Hope]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

See comments below

Called on the carpet by who? Hardly anybody knows anything about Witness Lee or the Local Church. Are you talking about former LC members in your area - If so, why do you care what they think or say? You and your wife apparently have gone on and are serving the Lord in your area, so I don't understand how a few gossipers or busybodies could hinder you in any way.

Good Morning UntoHim,

I was referring to folks who are in Christianity and had never been in a local church. Yes, you would think you can get clear. No, my wife and I go forward but it does happen.

True, "Hardly anybody knows anything about Witness Lee or the Local Church." But some have read a few things on the web or a book and take the view, better safe than sorry. Thus ole Hope may have some problem and we had better warn off anyone seeking to have fellowship etc.

The abuse from folks in christianity today is not nearly as vicious as what I experienced from Christianity while I was in the church in Dallas for example. The abuse came from leaders or from "would be leaders."

WL would make sweeping allegations against Christianity based on some particular events or persons he may have experienced or heard of. Some in Christianity give sweeping condemnations of folks in a lc or formerly in a lc based on a few events, some real and some imagined.

Having considered my question, it is probably not a topic that would build up others. I fear that folks could make the mistake of taking the behavior of a few in Christianity and build some kind of sweeping characterization of everyone and every individual.

Hope

[aron]

Originally Posted by Hope

Having considered my question, it is probably not a topic that would build up others. I fear that folks could make the mistake of taking the behavior of a few in Christianity and build some kind of sweeping characterization of everyone and every individual.

Given the extreme polarization that's accompanied the LC-related dialogue over the years, it's hard for me to imagine any topic not at risk of eventually degenerating into sweeping characterizations and name-calling.

But given that my motive (I hope) has been not so much an attempt to convince others of the rightness of my position, but rather my feeble attempts to follow my Lord, the results, I believe, are up to Him. I have been encouraged by a few "amens" from the great beyond of Outer Cyber-istan, and that's good enough.

I myself, while a rabid participant, only lasted a short while and never attained "position", and thus was able to slip anonymously back into "christianity" with no questions asked. I am grateful that I have not experienced the rejection you speak of. It is sad that we sometimes don't realize the cleansing power of our Lord, that "forever tainted" doesn't exist in His eyes.

I was very touched that the christian fellowship was able to receive Saul/Paul, who had formerly been persecuting them to the death, on only the recommendation of Ananias and on his(Paul's) own testimony. That was good enough for them. Once their Lord forgave, so did they, immediately and without any lingering rancor. May such a Spirit still prevail upon this land!

[awareness]

Hope:
"Hardly anybody knows anything about Witness Lee or the Local Church." But some have read a few things on the web or a book and take the view, better safe than sorry. Thus ole Hope may have some problem and we had better warn off anyone seeking to have fellowship etc.

Surely this doesn't surprise you bro Hope. If I'm not mistaken you spent decades as a standing leader in the LC and was therefore part and parcel to castigating and making fun of all other Christians, and now when you want to join those Christians you wonder why they're leery of you.

But aren't all of us that left the LC a little strange to others that know something about us and our history? After all we gave our life to a bunch of fanatics that called on the name of the Lord like He's deaf and has a short attention span ; and to a bunch of obsessive-compulsive's that got in groups and shouted scripture verses back and forth at each other like playing a game of hot potato with the Bible.

Face it bro Hope. You did those things. And those that don't think you are strange are either not informed, are being dishonest, or whose judgment is suspect.

Own it brother...cuz you bought it....

I'm not wishing to be hard on your bro. I know what it is to be rejected. After many years in Ft. Lauderdale I moved to Kentucky, where I have family ties all over the place that I'm still coming to know after 5 years.

But still, even with family ties to the area, I'm spotted immediately as different. I've even had people I just met, on more than one occasion, tell me early on that, "You've different." I guess it sticks out like a sore thumb.

In this small town area, if you're not in their "old country boy in group" you are not well received and will find yourself hard up against it.

I get this reaction even before I'm able to speak of the different thoughts and opinions that I hold, that is undeniably different.

Then, it gets worse if I tell someone that I was once in a group that some label as a Christian cult. I learned that the hard way. Now it's too late. The word is out. Now I have to live with that, and live with the realization that some, that I even have family ties too, will no longer have anything to do with me ; that they think I have more than a few screws loose. I'm talking Christians here ; more often than not, very conservative Christians.

Why do I have to own this bro Hope? Because I bought it. That's why. My years in the LC have branded me. It's my Scarlet Letter. And yours too bro Hope. Wear it with humility and after awhile, if you're nice, they will receive you like Paul was received.

But don't expect a free pass. Not after spending years in what many think is a loony bin.

[manna-man]

Act 9:11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,

Mat 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Imagine, The Lord sent him down a road called Straight!


Brother Harold,

I'm reminded of Paul of Tarsus. He was branded for being a killer of the brethren yet God used Him. Don't ask me why but God uses the biggest screw ups to get His message out. So I guess that would include you, me or even the the elders of all the localities if we chose to obey.

Praise The Lord we have a God of second chances!

Don Jr.

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

even with family ties to the area, I'm spotted immediately as different. I've even had people I just met, on more than one occasion, tell me early on that, "You've different." I guess it sticks out like a sore thumb...

I get this reaction even before I'm able to speak of the different thoughts and opinions that I hold, that is undeniably different.

Then, it gets worse ...

Well, it could be even worse still. You could be the same as everyone else. That would be the real tragedy!

Instead, you got led on the glittering paths of light, and somehow those paths got turned into fogs of darkness. Through the "rabbit hole" indeed! The trouble is, we know we've been through the rabbit hole, but sometimes we can't tell if we are "in" or "out"...

I love to hear the stories of christians, of their walk with the Lord. Because they are all different, but they all tell the same story. God is merciful, God is good. Etc.

I love Psalm 25:10 " All the paths of the LORD are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies." All our paths are in some ways unique, but all the pathways of the Lord can be full of mercy and truth.

So a good ole boy from Kentucky who fell through a rabbit hole can be on one of the paths of mercy & truth. Amazing.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

I'm not wishing to be hard on your bro. I know what it is to be rejected. After many years in Ft. Lauderdale I moved to Kentucky, where I have family ties all over the place that I'm still coming to know after 5 years.

But still, even with family ties to the area, I'm spotted immediately as different. I've even had people I just met, on more than one occasion, tell me early on that, "You've different." I guess it sticks out like a sore thumb.

I got that reaction all the time from family and my old friends back in the 'hood after I got saved. That just opened the door wide open for me to share the gospel with all my old friends.

It was much later on, after my dear cousin, whom I grew up with, the self-appointed, soap-box standing, "defender of the faith" apologetic, and self-righteous, all-condemning Pharisee, informed my entire family of my "cult" involvement, that caused us so much pain and hardship. That slammed the door shut to the gospel. So many were robbed of the opportunity to hear the life-changing joy of my salvation.

Originally Posted by awareness

In this small town area, if you're not in their "old country boy in group" you are not well received and will find yourself hard up against it.

I get this reaction even before I'm able to speak of the different thoughts and opinions that I hold, that is undeniably different.

awareness, you could simply go away to college, and then return home, and get that same reaction from the "good old country boys."

[Hope]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I got that reaction all the time from family and my old friends back in the 'hood after I got saved. That just opened the door wide open for me to share the gospel with all my old friends.

It was much later on, after my dear cousin, whom I grew up with, the self-appointed, soap-box standing, "defender of the faith" apologetic, and self-righteous, all-condemning Pharisee, informed my entire family of my "cult" involvement, that caused us so much pain and hardship. That slammed the door shut to the gospel. So many were robbed of the opportunity to hear the life-changing joy of my salvation."

Ohio,

Your reference is what I had in mind. When I was playing baseball at Baylor University, Don Looper, and with a slight assist from ole Hope, led several of the players to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Several nominal Christians were revived and gave their life anew to the Lord. Then boom!!! We were labeled and slandered. Some of my new brothers in Christ wanted to know why we were being slandered. I had no idea how to respond without putting down someone else. Many tender in the faith were brought into confusion. One player told me that Don and I were a very positive influence on the entire team so why were we being criticized. Another player, not a believer, who had graduated and came back for graduate studies came up to me and asked why I had gone into the twi-light zone. There was not going to be much of a chance for me to share Christ with him. Do the slanderers bear some responsibility if he does not come to Christ because of the gosip he heard?

For every account a former member can share about some type of abuse or shaming they suffered in the lc, I can probably give at least three that saints in the church in Dallas suffered from some member of the Sabboth patrole, or religious watchdog, or busybody.

But I believe I should let it go. I have sought the Lord for a heart of forgiveness toward those in Christianity and as well as those in the LSM who have dished out abuse, shaming, slander etc. It is important to guard your heart. I strongly suspect that 99% of WL's over the top harsh words toward Christianity was due to wrongs suffered by him and others with whom he was associated. He did suffer some absolutely terrible things in China at the hands of the Japanese because of certain clergymen. But he was wrong to then go after others who were loyal to the Christianity system. Here in the USA, he did endure shameful put downs by proud religious leaders but then I believe there was some bitterness in his heart that the Lord needed to take away.

Of course it is not easy for us to know the hearts and motives of others. But from my own experience with some abusers from Christianity and from the LSM, I can understand how it is that we can overreact and become embittered.

Hope

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Hope

But I believe I should let it go. I have sought the Lord for a heart of forgiveness toward those in Christianity and as well as those in the LSM who have dished out abuse, shaming, slander etc. It is important to guard your heart.

Of course it is not easy for us to know the hearts and motives of others. But from my own experience with some abusers from Christianity and from the LSM, I can understand how it is that we can overreact and become embittered.

By the natural man there is the propensity to react defensively. What I am learning slowly is sometimes it's best not to say anything at that specific moment. If something needs to be said, it cannot be reactionary or hastily.
If someone wanted to call me negative, rebellious, etc, there's nothing I can say.
It is out of my will how fellow believers receive me. What's within my will is how I can receive my fellow believers according to Romans 15:7.

Terry

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Hope

I strongly suspect that 99% of WL's over the top harsh words toward Christianity was due to wrongs suffered by him and others with whom he was associated. He did suffer some absolutely terrible things in China at the hands of the Japanese because of certain clergymen. But he was wrong to then go after others who were loyal to the Christianity system.

I long had been tolerant of WL's harsh criticism towards what he believed to be religious systems. I should confess that in my earlier days, I was completely on board with the condemnation towards Catholicism following the Revelations trainings -- "Yeah, that's right, let 'em have it." I did consider WL to be like John the Baptist or one of the prophets.

Looking back, however, WL did have a greater responsibility as a leader with the most influential ministry to the LC's. He set the tone for all other ministers. His attitudes were replicated in them. The whole system eventually was diseased with judgmental attitudes producing Laodicean prides and prejudices, which ironically he later blamed on the LC's themselves, calling us all "Moo-Cows" and the like.

Still, however, I really did not become aware of the real situation until the recent quarantine was on the horizon, and I began to study our history back in the 80's. WL may have been too harsh towards all "outsiders," but it was nothing compared to the way he treated "insiders."

Hence, all the mechanisms for "self-destruction" were in place -- appointing certain Blendeds, appraising the ministry above scripture, creating a closed society, condemning both outsiders and any "concerned" insiders -- and thus duplicating the course of history of the "other" exclusives.

The tragedy is that so many precious saints in nearly al the LC's suffered solely due to their association with WL. Connections with his ministry brought pain and shame upon so many others. What a shame if this whole dynamic was driven for decades by his own bitter reaction to Japanese aggressions in China, partly due to certain "Benedict Arnold's" among the Chinese clergy.

[Hope]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The tragedy is that so many precious saints in nearly al the LC's suffered solely due to their association with WL. Connections with his ministry brought pain and shame upon so many others. What a shame if this whole dynamic was driven for decades by his own bitter reaction to Japanese aggressions in China, partly due to certain "Benedict Arnold's" among the Chinese clergy.

Ohio,

I put into bold print a part of your post. I agree with it in some ways. Most did not suffer for deeds they did though some were foolish and brought on their problems through their own actions.

My impression of the motivation of most who attacked saints in local churches was religious zeal, pride and competition and fears due to the Sun Moon type of crowd lurking around and fear of orientals etc. I almost never heard anyone say they were upset with WL or the local churches because he had declared Christianity poor etc. I have mainly assumed that his poor poor Christianity talk effected those in the local churches very much in line with your statement from your post, "The whole system eventually was diseased with judgmental attitudes producing Laodicean prides and prejudices, which ironically he later blamed on the LC's themselves, calling us all "Moo-Cows" and the like."

I cannot say that I never heard an attack from Christianity that referenced a negative quote about Christianity given by WL. I just cannot recall one. Maybe you have. But at this point my experience does not confirm that outsiders paid much attention to his teaching about religion, Christianity etc.

Hope

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

... all the mechanisms for "self-destruction" were in place -- appointing certain Blendeds, appraising the ministry above scripture, creating a closed society, condemning both outsiders and any "concerned" insiders -- and thus duplicating the course of history of the "other" exclusives.

... What a shame if this whole dynamic was driven for decades by his own bitter reaction to Japanese aggressions in China, partly due to certain "Benedict Arnold's" among the Chinese clergy.

Very astute, and well put. Of course there is always the peril of oversimplifying matters to "one final cause", over and above all the rest. Yet this one cause is worth being held up and examined, carefully, if for no other reason that Lee insisted that the old man had been thoroughly expunged from his being, that "sola scriptura" alone was his guide, and so forth. Had he been honest and admitted that he was a fallen man like the rest, God could have covered him. But he insisted he was pure from these taints, and thus they remained hidden until the flowers and fruits came forth for all to see, and dragged down who knows how many souls in their wake.

This is similar to the oriental "shaming" discussion I've seen elsewhere on the web; it is a practice of the natural man, ingrained in culture, which Lee insisted was over, finished, through, kaput, and therefore it remained submerged and operating quietly for all those years upon everyone who believed his insistence that we were somehow "pure".

The lesson for me is: if you say that you see, your blindness remains. Only if you admit you are blind, and naked, then God can heal and cover you. Lord, have mercy on us all.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Why do I have to own this bro Hope? Because I bought it. That's why. My years in the LC have branded me. It's my Scarlet Letter. And yours too bro Hope. Wear it with humility and after awhile, if you're nice, they will receive you like Paul was received.

But don't expect a free pass. Not after spending years in what many think is a loony bin.

Sometimes I think this forum is a "loony bin."

[awareness]

Ohio:
Sometimes I think this forum is a "loony bin."

LOL Ohio. Me too.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

It is sad that we sometimes don't realize the cleansing power of our Lord, that "forever tainted" doesn't exist in His eyes.

I was very touched that the christian fellowship was able to receive Saul/Paul, who had formerly been persecuting them to the death, on only the recommendation of Ananias and on his(Paul's) own testimony. That was good enough for them. Once their Lord forgave, so did they, immediately and without any lingering rancor. May such a Spirit still prevail upon this land!

I'm not so sure that the saints were so quick to forgive "immediately and without any lingering rancor." Acts 9.26 says, "Saul came to Jerusalem, and he tried to join himself to the disciples, but all were afraid of him, and did not believe he was a disciple."

It was then Barnabas (full of the Holy Spirit and faith) who was instrumental in connecting Saul to the body of Christ. It took the church a long time (3 years in Arabia?) to accept his salvation from the Lord, and then Barnabas went to Tarsus to retrieve Saul, bringing him to Antioch, where they assembled a whole year.

But, yes!, how wonderful is "the cleansing power of our Lord."