Billy Graham - Tribute to Faithful Gift in the Body

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Boxjobox

This is a recollection that I have of the time Billy Graham came to San Diego for a crusade ... The speaking in the church ... at that time was that BG was a nice preacher, but short of the revelation of the church, so that his ministry produced Christians but did not have a container for them, which should be the LC.

This is also what I heard, but it was also taken to another level, i.e. that "Billy Graham gives birth to children, but does not raise them up, and shame on anyone who would do such a thing as that." Regardless of what WL said on the record about Billy Graham, we know how he really felt. It's really unfortunate that Drake quoted something from WL, because it's only fair that the whole story be told.

Originally Posted by Drake

Your point is understandable.....still .... ... he was an Evangelist and fulfilled that function powerfully. That was his commission from the Lord. God could use such a man because he had a big heart.

If we want to think that God could use Billy Graham because he "had a big heart," then we must also admit that many LC leaders could not be used because they did not "have a big heart."

Billy Graham was both a gift to mankind ("And He gave some evangelists ...") and a minister faithful and obedient to a vision, (To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith ... I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision."

For WL to say privately, off the record, that Billy Graham did not "see the vision of the church," is without dispute, since we know that these comments were prevalent throughout the Recovery. It was just his way of discrediting every minister besides himself.

We do know from history that Billy Graham was indeed faithful to the vision from the day he was called until his last day. He was the most fruitful evangelist in church history. He was never stained by immorality, and became a pattern for many others to serve God. He was a friend of politicians, yet stayed out of politics. By refusing to speak to segregated crowds, Billy Graham did far more for the oneness of the body of Christ than WL ever did.

[Koinonia]

I do think it was unnecessary to tie a tribute to Billy Graham back to Witness Lee. LC members feel free to mourn the loss of Billy Graham because Witness Lee had said some good things about him. However, Billy Graham may very well have been the last living Christian figure for which Witness Lee ever had a positive comment. That's rather sad.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

..However, Billy Graham may very well have been the last living Christian figure for which Witness Lee ever had a positive comment. That's rather sad.

Probably true. Now I wonder if Hank Hannegraaff would have been able to muster up enough hypocrisy to have kowtowed and sniveled enough before the One Minister with the One Ministry for the Age enough to get a complement out of Witness Lee.

Many of us may recall when the original Bible Answer Man, Dr. Walter Martin, came to Lee's home (there on Ball road near the hall) to discuss CRI's published material about the teachings and practices of the Local Church. Apparently the meeting was recorded, and Witness Lee agreed to give Martin a copy of the recording. Lee (of course) reneged on the agreement and refused to give a copy to Dr. Martin. He gave some kind of lame excuse...like Martin was rude to him or some other such nonsense. I suspect the real reason was that Lee didn't have any good answers for Dr. Martin's reasonable theological concerns about Lee's teachings, and Lee didn't want that kind of information getting out to LC members, or God forbid, the general public.
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[Evangelical]

As he was so loved and respected by the world, country leaders, the media, the Pope, it makes one wonder.

Luke 6:26 Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.

and also 2 Timothy 3:12, John 17:14.

Jesus clearly says that the world will hate his disciples, not love and respect them. I think that stands as true today as it did in the time of Christ.

I believe Graham was treated this way because his views tended towards Catholic universalism, much the same as Mother Teresa. Originally a hellfire and brimstone preacher his preaching somehow changed over the years. He did not really challenge people's pursuit of their own (false) religions as much as other preachers might. A number of times he is recorded as saying he does not really care about a person's religion if they are Buddhist or whatever.

Also his net worth of $25 million at his death which is about the same as Creflo Dollar...now his son gets paid millions to run charities. Also his involvement in politics indicates he was a religious nationalist?

Nonetheless I believe Graham was a genuine disciple but I know people who don't because of the aforementioned reasons.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Also his net worth of $25 million at his death which is about the same as Creflo Dollar. Also his involvement in politics indicates he was a religious nationalist

There he is! Thanks for sharing the heart of the LSM ministry, E.

I'm sure your distain for Graham and his ministry was shared by your guy, Witness Lee:

The Furtherance of the New Way for the Lord's Recovery

"The world-famous American evangelist, Billy Graham, began to serve the Lord in Los Angeles in 1949. He also saw that in many of his large gospel meetings more than ten thousand people would leave their names. After sending them to all the denominations, however, most of them became very cold and were never heard from again."

The Perfecting of the Saints and the Building up of the House of God
In speaking of Evangelicals - and specifically Graham, Lee says:

"do not stress the truth"

"do not emphasize the truth, the ground of the church, or the way of the church, nor do they discern these matters. They only make a united effort to preach the gospel. "

The lists could go on and on... If Witness Lee didn't say it - must be wrong.

[Evangelical]

There is nothing wrong with what Lee said, it is a factual observation. In the bible the disciples added the new converts to the church. The goal is to make disciples, not converts.

We see that Lee had great respect for Graham as do I, however this is not to say that his methods or teaching is absolutely correct.

Also the hypocrites, the worldly media and world leaders will pay respect for anyone who tickles their ear.

Lee's positive statements about him are from some time ago. In recent years I think Lee's view "He does not try to please people." to not be absolutely correct. I would say he tried to please people by not offending them and in doing so may have provided false comfort to Presidents, the Queen, the Pope, Roman Catholics etc.

[Koinonia]

Evangelical, the fruit of Billy Graham's ministry is millions of new believers around the world to the joy and glory of God. The fruit of Witness Lee's ministry is a few thousand churches with standing orders for books from his own company and a "one publication" policy that precludes every other source of spiritual help. Lee raised up a following after himself. Graham fulfilled his commission and left the rest to the Lord and to other believers. Lee was full of criticism. Graham practiced not to criticize others.

[Boxjobox]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This is also what I heard, but it was also taken to another level, i.e. that "Billy Graham gives birth to children, but does not raise them up, and shame on anyone who would do such a thing as that." Regardless of what WL said on the record about Billy Graham, we know how he really felt. It's really unfortunate that Drake quoted something from WL, because it's only fair that the whole story be told.

Thanks Ohio for the confirmation- I too remember something about it kind of like being Lot's children. I couldn't recall if it was something said by an elder locally, or in a message, but it was tied to Billy Graham leading people to Christ but not taking care of them. I specifically recall that the crusade did hook people up with area assemblies, and it's amazing how many good Christians attribute their salvation to him. One would think if he was regarded as a evangelists, and came to San Diego, that the LC would encourage the saints to go support the crusade the evangelist, and assist those who came to believe.
Another sign of the "fruit" of WL's ministry.