Whistleblower

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Nell

Who told you that? This forum is not "a" church. It is THE church. The universal church.

The word just says "tell it to the church" with no distinction on who it is that represents the church in this matter. In fact, this forum is precisely the members of the Lord's church who need this information. We are witnesses to the whole matter. We care more for those abused than those believers who have no knowledge of Lee and his sordid sinful behavior.

Nell

Nell,

This forum is not the universal church. It is not a local church. Nothing about this forum even remotely matches the biblical definition of either. You are using that as an excuse to justify your berating and slander of believers in the Lords Recovery. It is in that way no different than the thousands of secular forums where similar unrestrained dialogue takes place.

Drake

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

Nell,

This forum is not the universal church. It is not a local church. Nothing about this forum even remotely matches the biblical definition of either. You are using that as an excuse to justify your berating and slander of believers in the Lords Recovery. It is in that way no different than the thousands of secular forums where similar unrestrained dialogue takes place.

Drake

What then is the "biblically approved" way to "tell it to the church"? A telephone? A letter? A newspaper?

If Paul "told it to the church" via published letters that were available for all to read how is that any different from a letter published on a public forum on the internet?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

What then is the "biblically approved" way to "tell it to the church"? A telephone? A letter? A newspaper?

If Paul "told it to the church" via published letters that were available for all to read how is that any different from a letter published on a public forum on the internet?

ZNP,

The equivalent NT venue would be the public square as was found in most of the cities of that day. The Lords charge to go to your sinning brother and if he does not listen tell it to the church etc. was not to go to a pubic square day after day and berate and slander brothers and sisters.

Drake

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

ZNP,

The equivalent NT venue would be the public square as was found in most of the cities of that day. The Lords charge to go to your sinning brother and if he does not listen tell it to the church etc. was not to go to a pubic square day after day and berate and slander brothers and sisters.

Drake

But isn't that what was meant when the Lord said their sins would be shouted from the rooftop?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

But isn't that what was meant when the Lord said their sins would be shouted from the rooftop?

ZNP,

That is borrowing scripture and flipping it on its head to justify an unrighteous practice.

If you think otherwise, please explain in context how Luke 12 v2-3 is the Lord charging His believers to shout each other’s sins from the rooftops.

I think you know better and I think your spirit knows better.

Drake

[Drake]

-1

ZNP,

There is no scriptural justification for your using this forum as a platform to work your issues or offenses with other Christians. It’s just not in the Bible so I wouldn’t be so confident about your hope of vindication at the judgement seat of Christ.

Let’s keave it there but If you wish to continue this dialogue let’s take it to the other thread where you discussed that NY meeting before. I would have posted this over there but I don’t know where it’s at .

Thanks
Drake

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

ZNP,

That is borrowing scripture and flipping it on its head to justify an unrighteous practice.

If you think otherwise, please explain in context how Luke 12 v2-3 is the Lord charging His believers to shout each other’s sins from the rooftops.

I think you know better and I think your spirit knows better.

Drake

I have not said that Luke 12 is a charge to believers to shout from the rooftop. However it is a warning and a promise to believers that if they do sin they had to deal with it properly because everything hidden will be known. There is nothing in Luke 12 that suggests this will only take place at the judgement seat.

Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. 2 But there is nothing covered up, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. 3 Wherefore whatsoever ye have said in the darkness shall be heard in the light; and what ye have spoken in the ear in the inner chambers shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Drake

ZNP,

The equivalent NT venue would be the public square as was found in most of the cities of that day. The Lords charge to go to your sinning brother and if he does not listen tell it to the church etc. was not to go to a pubic square day after day and berate and slander brothers and sisters.

Drake

So far, Drake, the only one berating brothers and sisters ... is you. You continue to berate we forum members as slanderers, members of the Body of Christ...the universal church...for sounding the alarm.

Regardless, the protection is on the side of the innocents who are or were victims of the predators, both then and now. You seem to have lost sight of that. Paul charged the Corinthians (below) to deliver the sinning brother to the devil for the salvation of his soul. We are charged to treat them as heathen and publican, that is, preach the gospel to them.

As bad as their sin is, the Lord in his Word still makes a way for the vilest offender to have a path back to Him...for the salvation of his soul. These vile offenders are possibly our brothers, too. By covering Philip Lee's sin, his own father abandoned him in his state. That is a horrible tragedy as well to leave these men in their sin. Benson and Ray didn't love BenM enough to try to rescue him. They exiled him and left him in his sinful state...and look what happened. Do you really want to be seen as one who would protect these men rather than the women they abuse?

There is plenty of tragedy in this horrible situation, but my heart remains to blow the whistle and stop the downward spiral of sinning men who prey on women IN THE CHURCH, not cover it up.

Nell

[Drake]

-1

Nell,

Your thread will not help ongoing victims because if a crime is being committed as you allege then cops need to be called in to stop it.

Why aren’t you doing that?

Drake

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Drake

Nell, Your thread will not help ongoing victims because if a crime is being committed as you allege then cops need to be called in to stop it. Why aren’t you doing that?

Who told you that? How can you possibly know what help this discussion has been to victims? Are you in contact with them? Have you talked with them and they told you this topic doesn't help them? The decision on what to do next is theirs and theirs alone. Not yours. Your opinion on what they should do is irrelevant. I think they should do whatever they feel is the right thing for them. I would never violate their will again by doing something apart from them. Additionally, I cannot reasonably report a crime I did not witness. In fact, I'm reporting a crime to those who will one day rule in the next age in righteousness.

It is the abused women who have the option to report any crimes against them should they choose to do so. I cannot even imagine the horror they went through, and the consequences they live with possibly to this day.

You apparently you think this is about YOU and your opinion about what should be done. Your opinion seems to be more for sake of your argument rather than concern for these abused women, those who abuse women, the church, Body of Christ, and our God who is Holy and Righteous.

Nell

[Evangelical]

I think Nell has raised some very important points about abuse in a church (any church or denomination). I can certainly agree with the point made about not every brother in the local churches being a brother and not every sister being a sister. We have to be on our guard and if we suspect any wrong doing should do something about it. I have only experienced abuse of men by men and not men to women although I'm sure the same sorts of men are capable of either.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Nell

Who told you that? How can you possibly know what help this discussion has been to victims? Are you in contact with them? Have you talked with them and they told you this topic doesn't help them? The decision on what to do next is theirs and theirs alone. Not yours. Your opinion on what they should do is irrelevant. I think they should do whatever they feel is the right thing for them. I would never violate their will again by doing something apart from them. Additionally, I cannot reasonably report a crime I did not witness. In fact, I'm reporting a crime to those who will one day rule in the next age in righteousness.

It is the abused women who have the option to report any crimes against them should they choose to do so. I cannot even imagine the horror they went through, and the consequences they live with possibly to this day.

You apparently you think this is about YOU and your opinion about what should be done. Your opinion seems to be more for sake of your argument rather than concern for these abused women, those who abuse women, the church, Body of Christ, and our God who is Holy and Righteous.

Nell

Nell,

Victims of sexual abuse do not often have the wherewithal, courage, or they have been made to feel shameful to report it for themselves. So if you know of a crime happening you should facilitate its reporting through the proper channels on their behalf else it just continues. You do not have to witness a crime to report it.

The problem I have with your accusation is that it is communicated through the wrong channel to have any effect and you broad brush everyone in the group. That will not help the victims of crime and it is slanderous and libelous to the vast majority believers in the Lords Recovery who pursue the Lord in a holy and upright manner of living. Your attempts to cast the Lords Recovery as practicing rampant sexual abuse is a gross mischaracterizing to serve the interests of people in this forum, not actual victims.

Nell, I’ve made several attempts to find common ground and assumed you really wanted to help victims of sexual abuse. But your rancorous responses reveal a different agenda else you would have gladly received the support of someone you consider a forum adversary. Or perhaps there really is no crime to report. You are possibly not making a distinction between a crime and immorality and just lumping them into one big “unrighteousness” bucket.

Lastly, you do not have a corner on the market for this topic. You are not an informed expert and your approach indicates a lack of understanding how to handle such situations. I know, because in a workplace setting I have been trained to recognize this and have been involved in steps to resolve a few situations. No, this is not about me, rather it is about taking tangible steps to intervene on behalf of actual victims vs. a kind of tabloid reporting.

Drake

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Drake

Nell,

This forum is not the universal church. It is not a local church. Nothing about this forum even remotely matches the biblical definition of either. You are using that as an excuse to justify your berating and slander of believers in the Lords Recovery. It is in that way no different than the thousands of secular forums where similar unrestrained dialogue takes place.

Drake

The church is comprised of Christian believers. All Christian believers. You have an opinion about what you think the church is, the organization of believers, but you are not the ultimate authority on who is and who isn't the church. Attempts to tell the Lord Jesus who his church ISN'T is pretty Leeish. Lee had his own personal opinion which he spun into a ministry. If you want to argue about the church...there are plenty of threads on that topic.

Nell

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Nell

The church is comprised of Christian believers. All Christian believers. You have an opinion about what you think the church is, the organization of believers, but you are not the ultimate authority on who is and who isn't the church. Attempts to tell the Lord Jesus who his church ISN'T is pretty Leeish. Lee had his own personal opinion which he spun into a ministry. If you want to argue about the church...there are plenty of threads on that topic.

Nell

Well, neither do you. Who appointed you as the ultimate authority on what is the church and what is not? Under your definition Facebook is also the church.

Now what?

Better to base your belief on the biblical definition of a local church or the church universal. A public forum where Christians slander and berate other believers is not a church by biblical arrangement nor in the Spirit of Christ. Christ will present a bride to Himself that spotless and without blemish through His cleansing and washing and anyone with even a little discernment knows that the railing accusations you promote here day after day strongly resemble the tactics of the evil one.

Drake