What is the boundary of the Local Church?

[ZNPaaneah]

LSM accolytes will preach that the ground of the church is the determining factor, regardless of the condition. Church could be dead, sinful, the Lord does not hear their prayers, etc. As long as they have the "ground" they are the unique church.

If you look at this doctrine the point is that you have to own the land you build on. This is crucial, it is righteousness. We see this with Abraham buying a place to bury his dead and we see this with David buying the site for the Temple.

When Jesus said He was going to the cross this was His purchase of the church. When Satan tempted Him saying you don't need to do this it was the typical temptation in the world. Trying to get something for nothing. Many wealthy people have built fortunes on the abuse of others. But what is interesting is that the Lord also said that we need to follow Him to the cross. The principle in the church is you get what you paid for. Peter, Paul and John are all apostles, in part because of the price they paid.

Slapping a name on a building is not equivalent to paying the price.

Crucifying the sins with the passions and lusts, letting your worldly ambitions and all the profit you envisioned die, dealing with your flesh, your ego, and forgiveness. These are aspects of being crucified with Christ. That is how you know you are standing on "the ground of the church".

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Crucifying the sins with the passions and lusts, letting your worldly ambitions and all the profit you envisioned die, dealing with your flesh, your ego, and forgiveness. These are aspects of being crucified with Christ. That is how you know you are standing on "the ground of the church".

ZNP, I think you're spot-on with this and the previous post.

The gospel is: A) Jesus; and B) following Jesus. It is NOT: A) the ground; B) the church; C) God's economy; D) whatever.

Much of what we do in scripture is akin to a 4-year-old watching Dad drive off to work. We have a bit of tangential information and can somewhat relate. God is, after all, our Father. But we know so little! Our subjective imagination runs wild.

But we have the prophetic word made clear (2 Pet 1:19). It is Jesus. Peter was there, and he testified. This is not some "Low gospel". It is our goal, our aim, our hope, our joy and our strength. It is Jesus.

Now, do we live it, or get distracted by vain speculations and reasonings?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by aron

ZNP, I think you're spot-on with this and the previous post.

The gospel is: A) Jesus; and B) following Jesus. It is NOT: A) the ground; B) the church; C) God's economy; D) whatever.

Much of what we do in scripture is akin to a 4-year-old watching Dad drive off to work. We have a bit of tangential information and can somewhat relate. God is, after all, our Father. But we know so little! Our subjective imagination runs wild.

But we have the prophetic word made clear (2 Pet 1:19). It is Jesus. Peter was there, and he testified. This is not some "Low gospel". It is our goal, our aim, our hope, our joy and our strength. It is Jesus.

Now, do we live it, or get distracted by vain speculations and reasonings?

This is not just a cautionary tale concerning LSM and the Local Church. It applies to all of Christianity.

When you are bringing in a Balaam, a prophet for hire, to spin the word of God to someone's advantage, you are not "becoming as a little child". When you are setting up your throne in Vatican city or anywhere else, you aren't becoming as a little child. When you parade around in your fancy garments that are stained with decades of sins that have not been dealt with you are not becoming as a little child.

[ZNPaaneah]

17 And if he refuse to hear them, tell it unto the church: and if he refuse to hear the church also, let him be unto thee as the Gentile and the publican. 18 Verily I say unto you, What things soever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and what things soever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Binding and loosing is a matter of authority. The "boundary" of a local church is also a matter of authority. The context of "binding and loosing" is in reference to a sinning brother that you are dealing with. This "local church" has the final authority to "bind or loose" this brother. I do not imply that this verse should be limited to this one application, but rather point out this is the context in which the Lord said this. Based on that context this is referring to the authority of the local assembly.

The only way this could be fulfilled is if the Christians are one. If you have multiple assemblies all independent and this brother simply moves to another one he may not be "truly bound". So it is reasonable to infer from this that the word of this assembly will have weight with all Christians in the city. However, they would also have to have weight with Christians in other cities, otherwise the brother who is "bound" in Anaheim simply moves to San Francisco. Therefore the decision of this church, to bind on Earth and have it bound in heaven would have to apply to the entire earth, not just a single locality. This decision would have to be fully aligned with the Bible. Paul referred to this kind of binding of a brother in 1Cor.

So then, the authority from this locality is not because the elder was appointed by brother so and so, or by "the apostle". The authority is because they are "in the name of Jesus". Their authority is because they are one with the Lord Jesus. They are branches attached to the vine.

[ZNPaaneah]

When we complain about the quarantines in the Local church we are looking at this wrong. The question is not whether or not it is Biblical for you to quarantine, nor is the question whether or not WL should or shouldn't have done this. The question is was this person bound in Earth and Heaven?

The reality is virtually no one cares what WL and his cronies do.

Imagine Titus visiting a Christian assembly and someone tells them "he has been quarantined". Why? He was publishing Christian material.

It is absurd.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

When we complain about the quarantines in the Local church we are looking at this wrong. The question is not whether or not it is Biblical for you to quarantine, nor is the question whether or not WL should or shouldn't have done this. The question is was this person bound in Earth and Heaven?

The reality is virtually no one cares what WL and his cronies do.

Imagine Titus visiting a Christian assembly and someone tells them "he has been quarantined". Why? He was publishing Christian material.

It is absurd.

Don't forget he wanted clean sheets in Thailand!

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

17 And if he refuse to hear them, tell it unto the church: and if he refuse to hear the church also, let him be unto thee as the Gentile and the publican. 18 Verily I say unto you, What things soever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and what things soever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

This is a test. Anyone can claim they are the "one true church" or that they "do church right" or that everyone else is somehow wrong. But, if you are a laughing stock and no one listens to you, who cares what you say?

The Blendeds quarantine of Titus Chu is an excellent example. No Christian outside of this very tiny camp of LSM adherents would pay any attention to that.

This forum is another example. If a person concerned about the LRC were to first check out this forum and then decide to steer clear of them, that would indicate that they have been bound by these words. If they ignore these words, then they haven't.

The error that LRC makes is to think that correlation = causation. It doesn't. They see a correlation between the reference to the church and to the city. Hence they infer a causal link between the two. For example, if you graphed the consumption of ice cream on one axis and the air temperature on the other you would see a direct correlation. People consume more ice cream when it is hot. If you then conclude that the way to make the air temperature go up is to consume more ice cream, that would be to infer a causal link between the consumption of ice cream and air temperature.

Every true church is one with all believers in a city. They flip this around and infer that declaring I am one with all believers will make me a true church. The problem is that if you aren't a true church you will soon be caught in the lie.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

17 And if he refuse to hear them, tell it unto the church: and if he refuse to hear the church also, let him be unto thee as the Gentile and the publican. 18 Verily I say unto you, What things soever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and what things soever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

This is a very high standard and requirement. If you are going to "quarantine" or "discipline" or "excommunicate" a brother it must be done officially, publicly, and to this standard. Our example in this matter is the Apostle Paul in 1Corinthians.

Very often people are afraid to "convict" based on innuendo, allegations, speculation, because that would bring liability to the church. If that is the case then you don't excommunicate. The standard is that what you bind on Earth is bound in heaven. If you can't meet that standard then you have no business binding.

When you "tell it to the church" the church is not deciding based on the fact that this is a "spiritual brother" making these claims, or "the apostle", etc. They should base it on verifiable facts. If the claims cannot be verified then you should not excommunicate. The standard of the kingdom should not be lower than the standard of the secular courts.

The excommunication of the "sister's rebellion" did not meet this standard. I observed other excommunications in Houston that also did not meet this standard. One brother, R, was excommunicated because he talked to another brother who was "quarantined" even though no one in the church was told why he was quarantined. Likewise, no one was officially told why R was quarantined (I learned of this because I was his roommate and was questioned by the elders). In both cases the church was informed not to talk to these brothers without any further explanation other than the elders were "disciplining them". That is not the standard in Matt 18. If an adult is convicted in a court it is always a matter of public record.