What is the boundary of the Local Church?

[JJ]

Thanks ZNP for leading us on this discussion on the Title. Very relevant and helpful for things I’ve been struggling to understand about “the practical expression of the church” (to borrow a term from Witness Lee).

One thing that is clear is that taking city as boundary has proven to be toxic in practice among the open brethren (Needed Truth branch) and TLR.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by JJ

Thanks ZNP for leading us on this discussion on the Title. Very relevant and helpful for things I’ve been struggling to understand about “the practical expression of the church” (to borrow a term from Witness Lee).

One thing that is clear is that taking city as boundary has proven to be toxic in practice among the open brethren (Needed Truth branch) and TLR.

Yes, and when we look at Revelation 2-3 as a continuation / case study of what the Lord spoke you see the development of the toxicity.

Smyrna -- Two groups, the liars call themselves the "chosen of God", "Jews", the so called elite christians. The name of their meeting hall is a very big issue. The synagogue of Satan indicates they violated the Lord's word concerning "minding the things of men". This also confirms the word in Matt 4 that Satan would return. Satan is the "prince of this world" and this church is "his synagogue".

this becomes more toxic in Pergamum

Pergamum -- No longer just synagogue of Satan, now it is a kingdom with the throne of Satan.

12 And to the angel of the church in Pergamum write:

These things saith he that hath the sharp two-edged sword: 13 I know where thou dwellest, even where Satan’s throne is; and thou holdest fast my name, and didst not deny my faith, even in the days [j]of Antipas my witness, my faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwelleth. 14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there some that hold the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit fornication. 15 So hast thou also some that hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans in like manner.

A kingdom has a boundary. So now they don't just have a great name for their meeting hall, they now have delineated a boundary for their kingdom. We see this progression in the doctrine of the ground of the church. The name of the church (the church with no name) is key, better than all other names. Then they define the church as having authority up to the boundary of the city. This is their kingdom. This kingdom has "the prince of this world" on the throne, so it is a worldly boundary to this kingdom. We are also reminded of Matt 18 where the Lord warned about "stumbling one of these little ones". He clarifies this and brings in Balaam as the example. According to Jewish history Balaam taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, teach them to commit fornication, and as a result destroy their testimony. Friendship with the world is a type of fornication. Marrying the church to the world is a fornication. Why would Balaam do this? A strong, vibrant, prevailing testimony by Israel threatened Balak's kingdom. We saw this with Witness Lee, the "rebellions" were designed to clean house of any that might rival him while at the same time bringing others in line (teaching them to commit fornication). As we have discussed on this forum many were stumbled by WL, PL, TL, and the puppet elders. Just as Ed Marks said, he signed the apology to PL because "it made WL happy". This is how they teach them to commit fornication and how they stumble the little ones.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by JJ

One thing that is clear is that taking city as boundary has proven to be toxic in practice among the open brethren (Needed Truth branch) and TLR.

We discussed that cities like Toronto, Canada have multiple LC assemblies all claiming to be the "unique" testimony of that city.

If we include "Needed Truth" and all of the other Exclusive Brethren splinter sects in Toronto, one wonders how our Lord can actually decide which of the dozen or more assemblies in that city He is supposed to recognize, and bless with His presence at their Table??

Why should our Lord recognize Nee or Lee to be your MOTA, when He has the likes of Darby, Kelly, Raven, Taylor, etc. to choose from?? Should He decide based on longevity (Darby) or perhaps having the most books (Lee)??

So many questions!!

Drake, please help, can you throw us a lifeline here?

[Drake]

-1

Ohio>”Drake, please help, can you throw us a lifeline here?”

Sure. Do you want to use “Ask the Audience”, 50-50, or “Phone-a-Friend”?

[ZNPaaneah]

The boundary, as we have seen from Typology is the "burnished brass" signifying the cross of Christ. The boundary as we have seen in Matt 16 is the cross of Christ.

If you ignore this we have the following progression

1. Ephesus -- great at judging others, not great at forgiving.

2. Smyrna -- Separated into two groups -- those that appear poor (yet are rich) and are suffering tribulation. The other group are the liars, those that say they are the chosen generation, the elite of God, they have a meeting hall with a great name. They make "the name of their meeting hall" the boundary instead of the cross.

3. Pergamum -- Grown worse, their synagogue is now a kingdom with a throne for Satan. They employ "Balaam" a false prophet, who puts stumbling blocks in front of the saints. His purpose is to eliminate any who might rival Balack's kingdom, and for those who will be puppets he teaches them to commit fornication. The faithful are being persecuted and put to death. They make the worldly boundary of Satan's kingdom their boundary instead of the cross.

4. Thyatira -- here "the Prophet" is an adulterous woman, a heathen, who appears chaste, but is notoriously evil. She proclaims that "she is a prophet". Maybe she even sets herself up as the Prophet of the Age.

18 And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write:

These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like a flame of fire, and his feet are like unto burnished brass: 19 I know thy works, and thy love and faith and ministry and patience, and that thy last works are more than the first. 20 But I have this against thee, that thou sufferest the woman Jezebel, who calleth herself a prophetess; and she teacheth and seduceth my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time that she should repent; and she willeth not to repent of her fornication. 22 Behold, I cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of her works. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he that searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto each one of you according to your works.

In every church you see these two groups. In Smyrna they are told to be faithful unto death. In Pergamum they are commended because they did not deny the faith. But in Thyatira he has something against them, that they tolerate this woman. Why would you tolerate Jezebel telling you she is the "Prophet of the age"? This is a very clear denial of Jesus who is our "Prophet of the Age".

[ZNPaaneah]

3And to the angel of the church in Sardis write:
These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars: I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and thou art dead. 2Be thou watchful, and establish the things that remain, which were ready to die: for I have found no works of thine perfected before my God.

There is a beautiful symmetry here. The synagogue of Satan in Smyrna has become an empty husk, it still has the name that it lives, but it is obviously and plainly dead. This is why Jesus rebuked Peter -- Get behind me Satan. This is where this "minding the things of men" leads. Nothing but the pretense of having a name that you live, when everyone can see you are dead. The things that are not dead yet are ready to die. No works are perfected, for all of their boasting and pomp they haven't accomplished anything.

3Remember therefore how thou hast received and didst hear; and keep it, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.


Remember Matt 16, remember the Lord's word that you have to follow Him to the cross. Remember His word about gaining the world and losing your soul.

4But thou hast a few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments: and they shall walk with me in white; for they are worthy. 5He that overcometh shall thus be arrayed in white garments; and I will in no wise blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. 6He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.

The vast majority of those who have travelled this road. Leaving their first love with unforgiveness. Being swayed by the synagogue of Satan, those that claim to be the chosen of God, but are simply liars. Building your little kingdom with Satan's throne right in the center and all of your persecution of the faithful witnesses. All of these ones have defiled their garments. I guess that is "old news". All those stains that they have never wanted to deal with all these years.

And we even have a window into their most heinous sins. "I will in no wise blot his name out of the book of life". I didn't know this was an option. I didn't know that once your name is in the book of life it could be blotted out. But then, in the LRC, I saw as time and time again different ones were "blotted out". They were "poisoned". You could not "confess their names". So it shouldn't be a surprise, we were told in the gospels that "as you have done it will be done to you".

That is the way this seed grows:

Unforgiveness -- special name for the chosen ones -- grows into a worldly kingdom with worldly boundaries -- self proclaimed prophets

until the life is sucked dry and all you can see is either they are dead or ready to die. Their garments are all stained with stains that are decades old, no one wants to deal with that, it is old news. What are those stains? All those brothers and sisters they stumbled, the ones they blotted out. The lawsuits, excommunications, etc.

[ZNPaaneah]

14And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God: 15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16So because thou art lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spew thee out of my mouth. 17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and have gotten riches, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art the wretched one and miserable and poor and blind and naked: 18I counsel thee to buy of me gold refined by fire, that thou mayest become rich; and white garments, that thou mayest clothe thyself, and that the shame of thy nakedness be not made manifest; and eyesalve to anoint thine eyes, that thou mayest see. 19As many as I love, I reprove and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

So there is a very interesting connection between Laodicea and Ephesus.

2I know thy works, and thy toil and patience, and that thou canst not bear evil men, and didst try them that call themselves apostles, and they are not, and didst find them false; 3and thou hast patience and didst bear for my name’s sake, and hast not grown weary.

Imagine you were in Laodicea. You could see they claimed to be rich but were poor, blind, naked, etc. Now you get to Ephesus -- the Lord commends you because you can't bear evil men, He commends you because of your patience and that you found those in Laodicea to be false. He commends you that you have not grown weary. It is a never ending cycle.

When we came to the Local Church we had "left religion", we were not going to go back anymore, etc. We discovered that they were false. But then the cycle began all over again. The meeting hall of Satan with the better name. The kingdom of Satan with the worldly boundary, the self proclaimed prophet, the false prophet teaching the saints to commit fornication, stumbling the little brothers, etc. Where was the error? How do you get off of this merry go round?

The church in Philadelphia is the exit. Everyone in this church has exited the merry go round, which is why the Lord says "they will not need to go out anymore".

The door out is mentioned in every church. In Ephesus it is "their first love". When we came to Jesus we confessed our sins and he forgave us. You can't simply find that certain brothers and sisters are false, you have to continue all the way to forgiveness. If you don't deal with the sin until you get to forgiveness, then you simply stay on the merry go round.

In Smyrna the exit is the cross of Christ. Remember, taking up your cross and following the Lord includes forgiving your brother 70 times 7 times.

In Pergamum the exit is holding fast the Lord's name and not denying the faith. When you make a boundary line of a worldly city the foundation of the church you have denied the faith in the Lord's blood. No longer are you holding to the Lord's name but rather to Balaam's name.

In Thyatira "suffering Jezebel" is where the Lord draws the line. When you allow this adulterous, evil woman to call herself a prophetess, even "the prophet of the Age" you are on the wrong side of the line the Lord draws.

In Sardis the stained garments are the boundary. The church walks in white, not because we are sinless, but because we deal with our sins. If you refuse to deal with your sins it is evidence that you are on the wrong side of the boundary the Lord has drawn.

In Laodicea we see the "door". This is the boundary. The Lord is on one side and everyone in Laodicea is on the other. Jesus is the Lamp, He is the light. Laodicea is the fulfillment of the warning to Ephesus about losing their lamp stand.

[ZNPaaneah]

In Matthew 16 -- we see that the boundary of the church is the cross of Christ.

In Matthew 18 -- we see that the cross of Christ is very much about dealing with sins and forgiveness.

In Revelation 2-3 -- we see that if you leave your first love (don't follow Him to the cross, deal with sins and forgive) then you are in danger of losing your lamp stand. And this process of losing your lamp stand follows a predictable pattern:

Pretending to be a church without the cross makes you a liar and the synagogue of Satan. We see this in the doctrine of the ground of the church where they replace the cross of Christ with the best name for the meeting hall. What is the cause of all the division in Christianity? It is that they don't have the very best name for their meeting hall, the "no name name".

In order to maintain this false kingdom you will need a false prophet like Balaam. You will then begin to see that the believers are stumbled (rebellions, cleaning house, puppet elders). Those who are faithful will be blotted out of the church, those who see and fear can be installed as puppets. We saw all of this in our experience of the LRC. This ruthless behavior proclaims the boundary to their little kingdom as equal to a worldly boundary, and the Prince of the World sits on the throne in this church. We saw this with the "doctrine of dirt" in the LRC.

Now that the toxicity level has increased you have a good environment for self proclaimed prophets like Jezebel who are all about using their position as a pretense to rob and steal others vineyards. For example what WL did with the church in NY which was not raised up by him. We had a very good example of this in WL, both of being proclaimed as the "prophet" and of seizing other vineyards that didn't belong to him and accusing those that object of rebellion.

The church will now have thirty years or more of un dealt with sins. Their garments are stained with the sins and abuses of the last 30-50 years. As a result the church is dead. However, to counter this they will come up with innumerable names that they are "living". The pure word of God is replaced with the pure spin put on the "living ministry" by the false prophets. We saw this with Ed Marks when he said that "he didn't want to deal with this [sin of apology letter to PL] today" about 30 years after the fact.

And finally, the Lord leaves the building. He is outside knocking for those who are still genuine believers to come out of this festering pit and join Him.

At this point, when you come out you have the risk of entering Ephesus all over again. This church is "patient" having endured the deadness and corruption of Sardis, or Thyatira, or Laodicea. In Ephesus they are taught to use the word to explore the errors of the "church" they were in and condemn them as "false". But the error is taking the road of self righteous judgement without forgiveness. Hence the merry go round begins all over again.

The other option is that at any time you can leave the merry go round and become part of Philadelphia. Simply take up the cross and follow the Lord. The path is described in detail in Matthew 16-18.