First Post kumbaya

[Drake]

Ohio>”For example, we both know that LSM did not exact a tax on all LCers based on our 1040. Neither was tithing a legalistic practice.

BUT ... we both know that agents at LSM pressured every LC elder and worker to buy books, send their members to the "Feasts," send their young people to the FTTA, etc. Leaders who were not so "compliant," were occasionally made public spectacles. That doesn't have to happen very often to make a lasting impression. After an event like that, occasional reminders suffice, and LSM can return to their regularly scheduled program about the "liberty of the Spirit" which supposedly only we enjoyed.”

Ohio,

I rarely respond to your posts because of their oft vitriolic character. However, your post below was a reasoned response so I’ll give it go.

First, if you and others would respond to absurd statements like the alleged tithing of 10% income to LSM then I wouldn’t feel compelled to do it. Since, fellow posters rarely step up to challenge those absurdities, then I do. That may give the impression that I avoid a central argument in preference for a selected argument and thereby i get accused of “dishonesty”. Fact is, honesty cannot be had in a conversation while absurd allegations are used as part of someone’s argument. Absurdities distract from what could be a reasonable conversation with differences because they impose upon others the assumption that the absurdity is valid. So, as long as a poster insists on absurdities I am content to expose the absurdity, not because I am dishonest, but because no reasonable conversation can be had while the absurdity stands.

Now, to your point quoted above. I feel zero pressure to buy books... they are mostly available online. Perhaps decades ago before the internet provided fluid access to the ministry or before the books were available through Amazon then there was an interest in making sure the local churches had access to all up to date speaking and were on the same page. I understand that because the ministry is not a free for all. For me, it is not a question of liberty of the Spirit as we all can read whatever we want as individuals. It is, as with any ministry, your purpose, your mission, and your calling.

Allow me this example. I like C.S. Lewis. I read a lot of him. I like the parallels in the Chronicles of Narnia in much the same way as I like those in Bunyan’s Pilgrims Progress and Holy War. No one tells me what I can and cannot read personally. I have all the freedom in the world, restricted only by the Spirit, to follow my conscience in what I ingest. However, the freedoms I enjoy as an individual do not transfer to the meetings of the church, else there would be complete and utter chaos. There would be disorder and punching the air. I do not impose my individual liberty in the Spirit onto the rest of the brothers and sisters in the meetings of the church. I do not have the liberty before the Lord to occupy others time by reading the Voyage of the Dawn Treader in the meetings. Why? Simply, because that is not how the Lord is building up the Body of Christ in that setting. You will say, that is an extreme example because no one is advocating reading Narnia in the meetings. Okay, but that is not any different than reading G.H. Lang in the meetings..... a point of contention in the history of the local churches that is counter to the vision, mission, and special calling of those in the local churches. Those localities that are contentious about that can do their own thing and have for that and other reasons.

Therefore, Brother Ohio, everything you describe are perfectly consistent with those following a mission, not seeking mammon. Be it the ministry that builds up the Body of Christ, FTT, encouragement to attend conferences, feasts, trainings, all those to my reckoning are part of the reason why LSM even exists. If not for that then they are just another Christian publisher.

Thanks for the conversation.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Ohio,

I rarely respond to your posts because of their oft vitriolic character. However, your post below was a reasoned response so I’ll give it go.

Thanks for responding Drake. I'll try to respond in a manner suitable for you.

Now, while I am open to critique, on this point I have to share my point of view. You regularly dismiss my comments as an "old broken record," but your grievance above should not go unanswered. Vitriol is defined as words "filled with bitter criticism or malice, caustic, scathing." I harbor malice towards no one, especially you, whom I may not even know. I admit to criticism, but not bitterness; rather I prefer to restrict myself to sarcasm. It is often an effective means of communication, even used in the Bible. Sorry if it sounds like "vitriol," but I don't mean to sound that way, though I do intend to be candid and pointed.

You didn't like it when I did not respond to exaggerated claims like "LSM exacts 10%" of members money. I think Kumbaya said that. Perhaps she heard that from her Dad. I don't know. Neither do I know every detail of every LC. I was Treasurer in a LC for 10 years, and I do know that we were instructed to send money to LSM/DCP every month. Whether we could pay the Mortgage or not, DCP needed their money. The money was used for their legal expenses, yet I Cor. 6 explicitly tells us NOT TO SUE. So this was a conflict for our LC, and I assume other LC's also.

So is Kumbaya's comment really false? Did it really demand my correction?

Dear brother Drake, to be honest with you, when you dismiss the claims that ex-members have suffered, you do yourself a disservice. It would be far better for your cause to make admissions concerning the serious failures of the past, rather than deny them.

In these last days the Lord is shining a spotlight on all segments of society, including His own.

[Drake]

Ohio>”So is Kumbaya's comment really false? Did it really demand my correction?

Dear brother Drake, to be honest with you, when you dismiss the claims that ex-members have suffered, you do yourself a disservice. It would be far better for your cause to make admissions concerning the serious failures of the past, rather than deny them. ”

Brother Ohio,

Thanks for your response.

To your first point above I don’t think correction is demanded... but perspective would have been helpful. Not for my sake, but for hers. She opened this thread asking questions of clarification. Why not share your view.. that tithing in your experience was not a legalistic thing. Perhaps that alone would have given her the understanding that what she thought was tithing was something different. Or your experience as Treasurer could have provided an understanding that local church members do not tithe directly to LSM 10% of their income for life. Lacking such perspectives from someone she trusts she now emphatically declares, just a few short posts later from her original inquiry, that local church members do indeed tithe 10% of their income to LSM for life. Now, let’s assume her dad told her that and that is how that idea got to percolating... then, she could easily have said just that and avoided making the general allegation that since her dad said it then it must be true everywhere because I have four decades of experience that refutes that .... and you do too. In fact, had she said her father told her that and that is why she believed it none of us could find fault in the simple innocence of a daughter that takes as gospel what her father told her even if she might have misunderstood what he meant. Yet, I usually engage, predictably, when someone makes an assertion that goes well beyond their means to know and when I have information to the contrary.

I’ll tell you something along this line of thought that touched me recently in this forum. It had been my observation that this forum will embrace most every person’s rhetoric as long as they oppose Witness Lee. Maybe not embrace the teaching itself but allow the unchristian narrative to run unchecked. I’ve mentioned this before. I saw it happening again, and then Nell posted a note on “a line in the sand.” Her thought was that disagree as you might about many things, but there are things we will never compromise or cross the line in matters of our Christian faith, etc. Something like that. Anyway, I was deeply touched by her message and though we probably disagree on many things I was 200% all in with Nell on that. Where do we draw the line even if and when we disagree?

So Brother Ohio, if the question had gone to why did the local churches give to DCP then that would have been a different conversation. Certainly, different than everyone tithing to LSM 10% of their income for life.

Thanks
Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Now, to your point quoted above. I feel zero pressure to buy books... they are mostly available online... Allow me this example. I like C.S. Lewis. I read a lot of him. I like the parallels in the Chronicles of Narnia in much the same way as I like those in Bunyan’s Pilgrims Progress and Holy War. No one tells me what I can and cannot read personally. I have all the freedom in the world, restricted only by the Spirit, to follow my conscience in what I ingest.

However, the freedoms I enjoy as an individual do not transfer to the meetings of the church, else there would be complete and utter chaos. There would be disorder and punching the air. I do not impose my individual liberty in the Spirit onto the rest of the brothers and sisters in the meetings of the church. I do not have the liberty before the Lord to occupy others time by reading the Voyage of the Dawn Treader in the meetings. Why? Simply, because that is not how the Lord is building up the Body of Christ in that setting. You will say, that is an extreme example because no one is advocating reading Narnia in the meetings. Okay, but that is not any different than reading G.H. Lang in the meetings..... a point of contention in the history of the local churches that is counter to the vision, mission, and special calling of those in the local churches. Those localities that are contentious about that can do their own thing and have for that and other reasons.

Brother Drake, I agree with your liberty to read as you prefer. I'm being totally honest. I'm glad you have outside interests. Since I have long had difficulty reading with my eyes, I have always envied those who could read to their heart's content.

But I disagree with your conclusions. No one has ever advocated opening the meetings to every members' reading list. But your own mission statement (Nee's TNCCL) places church elders in ministry oversight. They alone in prayer and fellowship must decide what to minister according to their church's needs. If the elders decide that parts of Lang's book can benefit their church during a time of crisis, then they must reserve the liberty, and even the necessity, to minister according to that. No outsiders, let alone a publisher, should interfere with their God-ordained responsibility!

Regarding the "vision, mission, and special calling of those in the local churches," can this ever contradict scripture? Can this "vision" be used to coverup unrighteousness and slander internal whistleblowers? And for those initially caught by the teachings in Nee's book TNCCL, should not their concerns of deviation from established practice also be heard?

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Drake

Ohio>”For example, we both know that LSM did not exact a tax on all LCers based on our 1040. Neither was tithing a legalistic practice.

BUT ... we both know that agents at LSM pressured every LC elder and worker to buy books, send their members to the "Feasts," send their young people to the FTTA, etc. Leaders who were not so "compliant," were occasionally made public spectacles. That doesn't have to happen very often to make a lasting impression. After an event like that, occasional reminders suffice, and LSM can return to their regularly scheduled program about the "liberty of the Spirit" which supposedly only we enjoyed.”

Ohio,

I rarely respond to your posts because of their oft vitriolic character. However, your post below was a reasoned response so I’ll give it go.

First, if you and others would respond to absurd statements like the alleged tithing of 10% income to LSM then I wouldn’t feel compelled to do it. Since, fellow posters rarely step up to challenge those absurdities, then I do. That may give the impression that I avoid a central argument in preference for a selected argument and thereby i get accused of “dishonesty”. Fact is, honesty cannot be had in a conversation while absurd allegations are used as part of someone’s argument. Absurdities distract from what could be a reasonable conversation with differences because they impose upon others the assumption that the absurdity is valid. So, as long as a poster insists on absurdities I am content to expose the absurdity, not because I am dishonest, but because no reasonable conversation can be had while the absurdity stands.

Now, to your point quoted above. I feel zero pressure to buy books... they are mostly available online. Perhaps decades ago before the internet provided fluid access to the ministry or before the books were available through Amazon then there was an interest in making sure the local churches had access to all up to date speaking and were on the same page. I understand that because the ministry is not a free for all. For me, it is not a question of liberty of the Spirit as we all can read whatever we want as individuals. It is, as with any ministry, your purpose, your mission, and your calling.

Allow me this example. I like C.S. Lewis. I read a lot of him. I like the parallels in the Chronicles of Narnia in much the same way as I like those in Bunyan’s Pilgrims Progress and Holy War. No one tells me what I can and cannot read personally. I have all the freedom in the world, restricted only by the Spirit, to follow my conscience in what I ingest. However, the freedoms I enjoy as an individual do not transfer to the meetings of the church, else there would be complete and utter chaos. There would be disorder and punching the air. I do not impose my individual liberty in the Spirit onto the rest of the brothers and sisters in the meetings of the church. I do not have the liberty before the Lord to occupy others time by reading the Voyage of the Dawn Treader in the meetings. Why? Simply, because that is not how the Lord is building up the Body of Christ in that setting. You will say, that is an extreme example because no one is advocating reading Narnia in the meetings. Okay, but that is not any different than reading G.H. Lang in the meetings..... a point of contention in the history of the local churches that is counter to the vision, mission, and special calling of those in the local churches. Those localities that are contentious about that can do their own thing and have for that and other reasons.

Therefore, Brother Ohio, everything you describe are perfectly consistent with those following a mission, not seeking mammon. Be it the ministry that builds up the Body of Christ, FTT, encouragement to attend conferences, feasts, trainings, all those to my reckoning are part of the reason why LSM even exists. If not for that then they are just another Christian publisher.

Thanks for the conversation.

Drake

You really jumped on my mis-speaking.

Fair enough.

I admit, I was ASSUMING that the saints tithe 10%. I said that bc I really do think the saints (as a whole) in the LC are pure hearted. Maybe they have a child-like quality due to unspoken pressure of reducing critical thinking and maybe the LC attracts only certain personalities now that have a tendency to not question the direction they're given but either way, I truly believe there are genuine and faithful believers in the LC.

My problem is with LSM and the blending brothers. Those are the wolves, the saints (in my opinion) innocent sheep. Nothing wrong with being called that. The Lord is our SHEPHARD. There's a reason for the parable of the wolf in sheep's clothing. Because it happens.

So, I retract my statement that the saints give 10% of their income their whole lives.

I was assuming, given my high opinion of their genuineness and sincere Christian lifestyle, that they would follow this practice without question.

Maybe they do, maybe they don't. But I know the hearts of many people in the LC and it is genuinely generous.

So, my problem is the exploitation from LSM with dealing with people who I believe are generous in their tithing.

But you're right, I don't KNOW that the saints tithe 10%. I only assumed.

Whatever tithes are given though, LSM does receive part of it from my understanding based on things I've read/heard.

If you have proof otherwise, please let me know.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Drake

Ohio>”For example, we both know that LSM did not exact a tax on all LCers based on our 1040. Neither was tithing a legalistic practice.

BUT ... we both know that agents at LSM pressured every LC elder and worker to buy books, send their members to the "Feasts," send their young people to the FTTA, etc. Leaders who were not so "compliant," were occasionally made public spectacles. That doesn't have to happen very often to make a lasting impression. After an event like that, occasional reminders suffice, and LSM can return to their regularly scheduled program about the "liberty of the Spirit" which supposedly only we enjoyed.”

Ohio,

I rarely respond to your posts because of their oft vitriolic character. However, your post below was a reasoned response so I’ll give it go.

First, if you and others would respond to absurd statements like the alleged tithing of 10% income to LSM then I wouldn’t feel compelled to do it. Since, fellow posters rarely step up to challenge those absurdities, then I do. That may give the impression that I avoid a central argument in preference for a selected argument and thereby i get accused of “dishonesty”. Fact is, honesty cannot be had in a conversation while absurd allegations are used as part of someone’s argument. Absurdities distract from what could be a reasonable conversation with differences because they impose upon others the assumption that the absurdity is valid. So, as long as a poster insists on absurdities I am content to expose the absurdity, not because I am dishonest, but because no reasonable conversation can be had while the absurdity stands.

Now, to your point quoted above. I feel zero pressure to buy books... they are mostly available online. Perhaps decades ago before the internet provided fluid access to the ministry or before the books were available through Amazon then there was an interest in making sure the local churches had access to all up to date speaking and were on the same page. I understand that because the ministry is not a free for all. For me, it is not a question of liberty of the Spirit as we all can read whatever we want as individuals. It is, as with any ministry, your purpose, your mission, and your calling.

Allow me this example. I like C.S. Lewis. I read a lot of him. I like the parallels in the Chronicles of Narnia in much the same way as I like those in Bunyan’s Pilgrims Progress and Holy War. No one tells me what I can and cannot read personally. I have all the freedom in the world, restricted only by the Spirit, to follow my conscience in what I ingest. However, the freedoms I enjoy as an individual do not transfer to the meetings of the church, else there would be complete and utter chaos. There would be disorder and punching the air. I do not impose my individual liberty in the Spirit onto the rest of the brothers and sisters in the meetings of the church. I do not have the liberty before the Lord to occupy others time by reading the Voyage of the Dawn Treader in the meetings. Why? Simply, because that is not how the Lord is building up the Body of Christ in that setting. You will say, that is an extreme example because no one is advocating reading Narnia in the meetings. Okay, but that is not any different than reading G.H. Lang in the meetings..... a point of contention in the history of the local churches that is counter to the vision, mission, and special calling of those in the local churches. Those localities that are contentious about that can do their own thing and have for that and other reasons.

Therefore, Brother Ohio, everything you describe are perfectly consistent with those following a mission, not seeking mammon. Be it the ministry that builds up the Body of Christ, FTT, encouragement to attend conferences, feasts, trainings, all those to my reckoning are part of the reason why LSM even exists. If not for that then they are just another Christian publisher.

Thanks for the conversation.

Drake

Fair enough.

But can you recognize the abuse that LSM has dolled out in the past and spiritual/emotional dangers of having a business so closely tied to a group of believers?

How much money would it really cost the church to use an outside publisher vs. owning a publishing company? Would the cost be worth it to avoid all the pain its caused to some of the saints?

It would definitely keep things in check....

So why haven't they done this? Is it because of money, control, possibly both?? Why haven't they used an outside publisher, in your opinion? Also, do you think that LSM has appropriately handled/corrected the issues it's had in the past with abuse and money mismanagement? I'm assuming LSM believes it has (or tells the saints this), bc its common knowledge at this point the illegal activity with daystar and loans between LSM and churches, etc.

I'm just curious as to what steps of accountability they've taken to ensure that this kind of illegal and spiritually abusive behavior won't happen again.

Any insight on that and can you recognize that it's a very critical concern?

Originally Posted by Drake

First, if you and others would respond to absurd statements like the alleged tithing of 10% income to LSM then I wouldn’t feel compelled to do it.

. Actually the amount of tithing is 10% and 5 % This was the recommended amount for good, mature, spiritual, saints.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

. Actually the amount of tithing is 10% and 5 % This was the recommended amount for good, mature, spiritual, saints.

During the great full-timer recruiting campaign of 1985, W. Lee instructed all the saints to give 10% tithe to the church and 5% tithe for new workers.