First Post kumbaya

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

Kumbaya>“Please correct me if I’m wrong, but to be a local church, you have to 1) pay money to LSM 2) buy material from LSM and no other publisher (for yourselves and the masses) 3) distribute LSM materials partially for free in order to “hook people”.”

For me, no. None of the above.

Yet, you were/are an elder’s son and do not know the answers to these questions? I find that.... interesting... yet odd.

Drake

Drake has far more experience than I do with the local churches...

Is there a particular locality that does not pay the LSM (and only LSM) for materials that are then distributed to the congregation?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Drake has far more experience than I do with the local churches...

Is there a particular locality that does not pay the LSM (and only LSM) for materials that are then distributed to the congregation?

Several. Often times xerox copies are made of material.

Think about it LofT. If it were a money-making model they wouldn’t allow copies to be made and they wouldn’t publish the books online for free.

It’s just common sense,

Drake

Originally Posted by Drake

Several. Often times xerox copies are made of material.

Think about it LofT. If it were a money-making model they wouldn’t allow copies to be made and they wouldn’t publish the books online for free.

It’s just common sense,

Drake

But making churches buy only from LSM and LSM only is controlling money. So it’s about both.
It’s not so much about money...all about CONTROL.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

Several. Often times xerox copies are made of material.

Think about it LofT. If it were a money-making model they wouldn’t allow copies to be made and they wouldn’t publish the books online for free.

It’s just common sense,

Drake

Yes I have seen Xerox copies made. I’m not claiming it to be a money making scheme... I don’t think many people are on this website posting to warn people about a money making scheme.

Humor me and provide just one locality name of the “several”

[Drake]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Yes I have seen Xerox copies made. I’m not claiming it to be a money making scheme... I don’t think many people are on this website posting to warn people about a money making scheme.

Humor me and provide just one locality name of the “several”

It’s irrelevant because it is widespread, observed firsthand in both places I lived and places I visited.

But, whats your point?

Drake

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

It’s irrelevant because it is widespread, observed firsthand in both places I lived and places I visited.

But, whats your point?

Drake

Take a deep breath.

I don’t know that I have a point. I asked a pretty straightforward question, so I guess I have a question...not a point.

If it is widespread, as you say, it should be a very simple answer.

I wasn’t in the recovery for 4 decades - clearly you have a couple, many dozens of examples. Could you provide one?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Take a deep breath.

I don’t know that I have a point. I asked a pretty straightforward question, so I guess I have a question...not a point.

If it is widespread, as you say, it should be a very simple answer.

I wasn’t in the recovery for 4 decades - clearly you have a couple, many dozens of examples. Could you provide one?

LofT,

You are missing my point entirely. No one is forced to buy LSM material. Those who for whatever reason do not want to buy HWFMR for instance, often use a xerox copy. Most prefer to have an actual bound copy and many are on subscription because they CHOOSE to get new material automatically. In EVERY place I lived there were circumstances where xerox copies were made. My foray into this topic was addressing the three questions asked about being forced to pay LSM, or buy from LSM, or give stuff for free to hook people into eventually paying or buying from LSM.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

LofT,

You are missing my point entirely. No one is forced to buy LSM material. Those who for whatever reason do not want to buy HWFMR for instance, often use a xerox copy. Most prefer to have an actual bound copy and many are on subscription because they CHOOSE to get new material automatically. In EVERY place I lived there were circumstances where xerox copies were made. My foray into this topic was addressing the three questions asked about being forced to pay LSM, or buy from LSM, or give stuff for free to hook people into eventually paying or buying from LSM.

Drake

This reminds me of W. Lee's statement, "I never controlled anybody, I can't even control a mosquito."

But when many LC's in the GLA stopped buying HWFMR, and TC had his own messages printed, then LSM quarantined GLA leaders, and sent their operatives to the area to stir up trouble with dissidents, and file lawsuits against LC's for meeting halls and bank assets. On many occasions, visitors would report back to the Blendeds that we did not use their materials in our meetings.

They even sued LC's for their *name*. Imagine that! The church with no name getting sued for their name.

Why don't you be honest with the forum members?

[Indiana]

This is an excerpt from a book that took two years to complete Jan 2005 - Jan 2007 - an LC brother, still in good standing, edited this book called Deviating from the Path in the Lord's Recovery. Our brother, Ron Kangas, has given his tacit approval to the veracity of this book. There have been no public criticisms of it by LSM.

When I read the post by Kumbaya I thought how sincere, how honest, and he invited correction. This also was my heart-attitude, felt deeply enough to produce the book that tells the other side of the disingenuous story given by LSM to the church.



Bill Mallon

"In 1985, after the training, I felt to type out the notes I took. I sent them to several brothers to share with them the fellowship of the Spirit, one of which was located in London. (Barbara and I during the winter of early '85 were graciously hosted by one couple in the London area, so I sent them my notes as a gesture of my appreciation.) Philip Lee claimed he consulted with WL and that I should never have done it. He reprimanded me, implying it was in rivalry with their printing department, and said these notes should never be sent before the book was published. He demanded that I retrieve all notes sent, and that I come to Anaheim and apologize to him. I went to Anaheim and apologized, stating that it was totally unintentional. He fell asleep in front of me, and I had to wait for him to wake up.


"These matters of control and many other stories like them were reported to Brother Lee, but he had no ear to hear and no heart to know. Brother Lee said, “We only knew to help and to do everything to expedite the Lord’s recovery in so many countries and to help the churches. That is all we knew.” - Yet, that was not all he knew. Such dupery as this prevails in The Fermentation of the Present Rebellion from seemingly godly men in their case to quarantine fellow co-workers in the Lord’s recovery. (email, Dec 2006)

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Drake

LofT,

You are missing my point entirely. No one is forced to buy LSM material. Those who for whatever reason do not want to buy HWFMR for instance, often use a xerox copy. Most prefer to have an actual bound copy and many are on subscription because they CHOOSE to get new material automatically. In EVERY place I lived there were circumstances where xerox copies were made. My foray into this topic was addressing the three questions asked about being forced to pay LSM, or buy from LSM, or give stuff for free to hook people into eventually paying or buying from LSM.

Drake

I don't see Xerox copies on the bookshelves.

That's what I was referring to. The churches have to keep those bookshelves stocked with LSM material and LSM material only.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Drake

LofT,

You are missing my point entirely. No one is forced to buy LSM material. Those who for whatever reason do not want to buy HWFMR for instance, often use a xerox copy. Most prefer to have an actual bound copy and many are on subscription because they CHOOSE to get new material automatically. In EVERY place I lived there were circumstances where xerox copies were made. My foray into this topic was addressing the three questions asked about being forced to pay LSM, or buy from LSM, or give stuff for free to hook people into eventually paying or buying from LSM.

Drake

Right, I get your point Drake.


I asked "Is there a particular locality that does not pay the LSM (and only LSM) for materials that are then distributed to the congregation?"

You said:
Several. Often times xerox copies are made of material.

I then agreed that I have also seen xerox copies.

You said several do not pay the LSM (and only the LSM) for materials that are then distributed to the congregation. You later indicated that this was so widespread that my question was irrelevant.

Please humor me, which locality could you use as an example.

Please don't respond saying that no one is "forced" to buy... that comment is irrelevant to this particular discussion.

Originally Posted by Drake

LofT,

You are missing my point entirely. No one is forced to buy LSM material. Those who for whatever reason do not want to buy HWFMR for instance, often use a xerox copy. Most prefer to have an actual bound copy and many are on subscription because they CHOOSE to get new material automatically. In EVERY place I lived there were circumstances where xerox copies were made. My foray into this topic was addressing the three questions asked about being forced to pay LSM, or buy from LSM, or give stuff for free to hook people into eventually paying or buying from LSM.

Drake

Mr Drake,

Are you saying we have an option to make a Xerox copy of HWFMR? If so, I will check with my brothers and borrow from one of them and make photocopy. I will share your understanding to all the saints in my locality also. Thanks.

[kumbaya]

Drake, its unspoken pressure to the saints to buy this stuff (with LSM being the only thing the churches sell.)

I wasn't saying the churches force the saints to buy the material. I'm saying LSM forces the local churches to buy it, whether is sells to the saints of not. That's just what someone told me and I honestly hope I'm wrong and they had wrong information!

It's like when you sell a product with a multi-level marketing company. You (as a distributor) are still required to purchase (granted at a discount) material or products to maintain your distributorship, just like the churches have to buy the LSM products to keep their "Lampstand" in the church. Please correct me if I'm wrong!

That's just what it looks like to me and based off what I've been told. Everyone seems to be making money at every level and even if they're not making much, they still require them to show the video training, etc....and although its voluntary- the unspoken pressure is there and all that money the saints pay to attend goes to LSM, right?

Oh the dangers of a business making decisions for churches. It actually happens all the time and its a type of spiritual abuse

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Several. Often times xerox copies are made of material.

Think about it LofT. If it were a money-making model they wouldn’t allow copies to be made and they wouldn’t publish the books online for free.

It’s just common sense,

Drake

They also waive the Training Donation for some trainees, but that doesn't negate the fact that they are the only ministry that charges for messages. Didn't the Apostle Paul mention something about "peddling" the word of God?

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Ohio

They also waive the Training Donation for some trainees, but that doesn't negate the fact that they are the only ministry that charges for messages. Didn't the Apostle Paul mention something about "peddling" the word of God?

Wow, very very sad. Never thought of it like that.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Drake

Several. Often times xerox copies are made of material.

Think about it LofT. If it were a money-making model they wouldn’t allow copies to be made and they wouldn’t publish the books online for free.

It’s just common sense,

Drake

I'm just taking a shot in the dark on this.

Not all the books are free, right?

Also, I was shown an example of a life study that was changed from the original publication to what was online.

I've also seen (in the Genesis life study) where WL says that most sisters have mental problems and think they should see a psychiatrist. But they just need the Lord.

WHUUUUUUUUUUT?

I don't know I can find the screenshot of that but I've got it, wonder if its online still. If they needed to "clean up" certain things in their publications to make them more "PC"- that seems like a great way to do it!

Like I said, shot in the dark. I just always overthink things. They do exert control so I'm looking for an alterior motive as to why...

My point is though, LSM is making money on trainings and all kinds of materials. Anyone who sets up a business for themselves gives out little freebies, sometimes a lot of them. Sometimes a ton of them. So what? If you do, you might get 10% of their income the rest of that person's life? Seems like an investment.

Catch my drift?

Look, I know everyone in the LC isn't like this. So, stop using this model and people won't accuse you of doing it! it's not complicated to me. There are bad business practices, bad church practices, and certainly bad practices when it comes to mixing church and business.

The whole combination has caused SO MUCH PAIN....

How much would be different if the LC just hired a third party publisher from the beginning??????

[Drake]

Kumbaya>”So what if you do if you'll get 10% of their income the rest of that person's life? Seems like an investment.”

LSM does not get 10% of a person’s life.

Is that what you meant? If not, what did you mean?

Drake

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Drake

Kumbaya>”So what if you do if you'll get 10% of their income the rest of that person's life? Seems like an investment.”

LSM does not get 10% of a person’s life.

Is that what you meant? If not, what did you mean?

Drake

tithing. 10%, LSM would get a cut of that plus all the training fees/expenses. It's a lifelong expense for that saint.

Now, I'm not claiming to know how much tithes go to LSM vs the LC- the lines are SO BLURRY, aren't they?

But, we know tithes have been used in the past to give out as a loan for WL's Daystar manufacturer. Yes, he paid it back to the church in Boston but he admitted borrowing 100K from the church in Boston to fund the "working brothers" or whatever they were called, who owned Phosphorous- the manufacturer for Daystar.

Yes, he repaid the church in Boston and made all these motorhomes with that money which he sold to Daystar, another company he owned that the saints invested money into.

So, he made the money by selling the motorhomes to Phosphorous, but when Daystar couldn't see them, who lost money then?

Did WL lose any? Or just the saints that invested?

Great work, minister of the age! It would be different if there were an open apology and not no much shame placed on others who disagreed.

Sorry, I'm not trying to be cynical.

Its just evil to me.

I am beyond saddened every day my family raised me like this and are still involved. I really am trying to heal and move on.

I've been reading a LITTLE on church history...I really like A.Z. Tozer. Wow....

It makes me wonder...

How much of WL's writings is actually WL? Not saying its not his words, but he wasn't the only person besides Watchmen Nee who focused on the experience of Christ.

I wish I had learned about that growing up!

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Drake

Kumbaya>”So what if you do if you'll get 10% of their income the rest of that person's life? Seems like an investment.”

LSM does not get 10% of a person’s life.

Is that what you meant? If not, what did you mean?

Drake

I said, 10% of a persons INCOME.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by kumbaya

I said, 10% of a persons INCOME.

LSM does not get 10% of a person’s income.

Drake

[Drake]

Kumbaya>”If you don't agree with any of this (with all due respect)...why are you on here?”

Kumbaya, it is simple. I am here because I care.

Drake

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Drake

LSM does not get 10% of a person’s income.

Drake

they get a portion of their tithes, yes- they do!!!!!!!!

I'm assuming the saints tithe 10%, some more- some less.

[kumbaya]

Originally Posted by Drake

Kumbaya>”So what if you do if you'll get 10% of their income the rest of that person's life? Seems like an investment.”

LSM does not get 10% of a person’s life.

Is that what you meant? If not, what did you mean?

Drake

If you don't agree with any of this (with all due respect)...why are you on here? I'm personally just trying to heal and move forward and I do want to make sure I have correct info but it seems like from the beginning you're halting that by questioning my legitimacy right off the bat. It was rude but I let it go.

I'm trying to heal and get answers and having a debate with you isn't what I'm going to do anymore. You don't have to feel this way but I just want to get some healing and you're being confrontational about every single post on here.

I get adding some balance and providing accurate facts but you don't have any to provide. Or examples. So, I'd be happy to see that but being confrontational just for the sake of it isn't cool.

If you can back up what you say, show some proof. We're all just saying our experiences and we all seem to have the similar ones. if yours was different, awesome, but you could acknowledge that you are, in fact, in the minority and the chances of us making this up is slim.

If I was going to be a part of a forum where I was the minority I'd probably have some proof or something that would validate my arguments.

I just appreciate a logical and respectful debate but you're not exactly doing that when you refute whats being said here....its just throwing off the conversation and making it difficult to communicate with the people we want to communicate with.

Maybe you had an AWESOME experience in the Recovery and nothing bad ever happened to you. Its possible and I think thats awesome!!

But at least acknowledge that many of us have been hurt and are hurting. And your stance of just being confrontational on everyones posts are just needless.

If you have proof, show it. If not, let us do our thing without throwing us off topic.

Please.