Can I be candid?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

for Lee and LSM to elevate her [Madame Guyon] operation in the body

Meanwhile a 21st-century sister can't give a 20-minute talk on the Sunday morning meeting in the Church in Duluth. Because she's a woman, is why. Eve was deceived before Adam. Paul said so.

Yet Mme Guyon was de facto 17th-century MOTA, and 20th-century Nee was trained by several uppity women who thought they had some kind of spirituality. Forsooth. . .

What is MOTA? Where did the recovery say this about Madam Guyon? That explains a lot, as I heard her ideas were ascetic. Which to me, is a central problem in the recovery (some strong asceticism).
Also I want to ask about ME Barber, or whatever her name was, who mentored Watchman Nee. What do we know about her? I was told by someone in the church she was sent home as a missionary because of allegations of sexual sin by her fellow missionaries. (Of course they were saying they were false allegations.) Once she denied the allegations, she was sent back to be a missionary. And ultimately all her students left her because she was so harsh, except Nee. I wonder how long Nee was with her and what ages he was? I wonder if she was sexually inappropriate and that's why she drove most everyone away. Perhaps such a betrayal by a spiritual mentor is what partly caused Nee to act out sexually against women in the church, inspite of the fact he seemed genuinely spiritual. Do you think he was genuinely spiritual? It's all hard for me to understand, how he and Lee could be such crooks who so wronged, used, and deceived the church and yet spent so much time talking about, studying the Bible and talking about their relationships with God. It seems it must have been real for them, just mixed with some deep messed up stuff about them, and a very poor conscience. Though that confuses me too, WL seemed almost OCD about being so careful not to sin or to keep everything organized etc., and to confess everything.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

What is MOTA?

Minister of the Age, title given to Witness Lee.

Where did the recovery say this about Madam Guyon?

Look here: LSM article

That explains a lot, as I heard her ideas were ascetic. Which to me, is a central problem in the recovery (some strong asceticism).
Also I want to ask about ME Barber, or whatever her name was, who mentored Watchman Nee. What do we know about her? I was told by someone in the church she was sent home as a missionary because of allegations of sexual sin by her fellow missionaries. (Of course they were saying they were false allegations.) Once she denied the allegations, she was sent back to be a missionary. And ultimately all her students left her because she was so harsh, except Nee. I wonder how long Nee was with her and what ages he was? I wonder if she was sexually inappropriate and that's why she drove most everyone away. Perhaps such a betrayal by a spiritual mentor is what partly caused Nee to act out sexually against women in the church, inspite of the fact he seemed genuinely spiritual. Do you think he was genuinely spiritual? It's all hard for me to understand, how he and Lee could be such crooks who so wronged, used, and deceived the church and yet spent so much time talking about, studying the Bible and talking about their relationships with God. It seems it must have been real for them, just mixed with some deep messed up stuff about them, and a very poor conscience. Though that confuses me too, WL seemed almost OCD about being so careful not to sin or to keep everything organized etc., and to confess everything.

Margaret Barber, missionary from England. Little is known about her. James Reetzke of Chicago has a booklet about her, but none of his writings are objective or unbiased.

What the allegations against Barber as missionary actually were has been largely unknown, but the missionary board was always blamed. It was said that Nee lasted the longest under her, and he was in his early 20's. Most of the early hagiography about Barber and Nee comes from Lee, and is suspect.

Apparently what Barber "recovered" was a pattern of "perfecting" brothers by harsh rebukes and public humiliations.

WL seemed almost OCD about being so careful not to sin or to keep everything organized etc., and to confess everything.

WL had a history of failed businesses which cost the church dearly.

His sons were prodigals who hurt many. Witness covered up their sins.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Margaret Barber, missionary from England. Little is known about her. James Reetzke of Chicago has a booklet about her, but none of his writings are objective or unbiased.

What the allegations against Barber as missionary actually were has been largely unknown, but the missionary board was always blamed. It was said that Nee lasted the longest under her, and he was in his early 20's. Most of the early hagiography about Barber and Nee comes from Lee, and is suspect.

What is incongruous to me, whether Barber was 'saintly' or 'harsh' or some combination thereof, is why are people running the LSM/lc, who won't allow women to minister, then extolling these women as pillars of the recovered church?

That goes for JPL, MG, DY, RL as well. They give these women their own web pages, trafficking on their supposed spiritual credentials, then they won't allow any woman to have any functional role?

And are people that: a) brain-dead; b) bewitched; and/or c) afraid to point out the obvious?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

What is incongruous to me, whether Barber was 'saintly' or 'harsh' or some combination thereof, is why are people running the LSM/lc, who won't allow women to minister, then extolling these women as pillars of the recovered church?

That goes for JPL, MG, DY, RL as well. They give these women their own web pages, trafficking on their supposed spiritual credentials, then they won't allow any woman to have any functional role?

And are people that: a) brain-dead; b) bewitched; and/or c) afraid to point out the obvious?

The positive history of influential women in the recovery give the rest of them hope.

The constant ministry of condemnation causes women inside the program to believe that they are the problem and not the system they are in.

Hence ... distorted congruity! LC style.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by aron

What is incongruous to me, whether Barber was 'saintly' or 'harsh' or some combination thereof, is why are people running the LSM/lc, who won't allow women to minister, then extolling these women as pillars of the recovered church?

That goes for JPL, MG, DY, RL as well. They give these women their own web pages, trafficking on their supposed spiritual credentials, then they won't allow any woman to have any functional role?

And are people that: a) brain-dead; b) bewitched; and/or c) afraid to point out the obvious?

I don't get too worked out about this because it is common among Christians, and not peculiar to the LRC.

I think the fundamental problem is taking certain verses out of context. For example Paul said he does not suffer a woman to teach, and in another place says the elder sisters need to teach the younger women. Therefore you have to realize the word about not teaching is in a very specific context. The chapter talks about kings and dealing with the local government. It is literally the chapter in the NT addressed to the churches "PR department". In this chapter only those given the authority to address the government officials are to do so. This is very common today. Just because you are a cook at McDonald's doesn't give you the authority to speak on behalf of McDonald's to the press. Every large corporation understands this and practices this. Employees are informed not to speak to the press unless it is their job to do so.

I am a teacher in the NYC Department of Ed. I do not speak to the press about the DOE. The chancellor could say that she "does not suffer me to speak or teach the press". That is true. It would also be completely absurd to generalize that and say I am not to teach.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I don't get too worked out about this because it is common among Christians, and not peculiar to the LRC.

I think the fundamental problem is taking certain verses out of context. For example Paul said he does not suffer a woman to teach, and in another place says the elder sisters need to teach the younger women. Therefore you have to realize the word about not teaching is in a very specific context. The chapter talks about kings and dealing with the local government. It is literally the chapter in the NT addressed to the churches "PR department". In this chapter only those given the authority to address the government officials are to do so. This is very common today. Just because you are a cook at McDonald's doesn't give you the authority to speak on behalf of McDonald's to the press. Every large corporation understands this and practices this. Employees are informed not to speak to the press unless it is their job to do so.

I am a teacher in the NYC Department of Ed. I do not speak to the press about the DOE. The chancellor could say that she "does not suffer me to speak or teach the press". That is true. It would also be completely absurd to generalize that and say I am not to teach.

Be that as it may, the fact remains that "recovery women" in 1927 were suffered to teach, and in 2017 they're not. Put differently, recovery women in 1927 eventually got LSM/lc-fueled internet panegyrics extolling their spirituality and women of 2017 do not, nor will they ever.

Something happened in the intervening 90 years to bring about the sea change.

Originally Posted by Ohio

The positive history of influential women in the recovery give the rest of them hope.

The constant ministry of condemnation causes women inside the program to believe that they are the problem and not the system they are in.

Hence ... distorted congruity! LC style.

The juxtaposition of the positive history against the negative present of condemnation and repression could hardly be more striking. All these women from the past getting their web pages and even published biographies extolling their spiritual virtues, while current members are supposed to disappear in the faceless proletariat. Whatever you do, don't be noticed; don't stand out. Don't have an individual or unique voice or a face - if you get noted in the LSM/lc today it's because you're near to the burning - to a "sister's rebellion" or some such. Better to hide in the proletariat - be a ''small potato".

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I don't get too worked out about this because it is common among Christians, and not peculiar to the LRC.

I think the fundamental problem is taking certain verses out of context. For example Paul said he does not suffer a woman to teach, and in another place says the elder sisters need to teach the younger women. Therefore you have to realize the word about not teaching is in a very specific context. The chapter talks about kings and dealing with the local government. It is literally the chapter in the NT addressed to the churches "PR department". In this chapter only those given the authority to address the government officials are to do so. This is very common today. Just because you are a cook at McDonald's doesn't give you the authority to speak on behalf of McDonald's to the press. Every large corporation understands this and practices this. Employees are informed not to speak to the press unless it is their job to do so.

I am a teacher in the NYC Department of Ed. I do not speak to the press about the DOE. The chancellor could say that she "does not suffer me to speak or teach the press". That is true. It would also be completely absurd to generalize that and say I am not to teach.

Great point about understanding the context of scriptures.

Reminds me about how Hebrews 10.25-26 is misinterpreted to imply that missing meetings will send you to hell. I grew up in the RCC with that dreaded guillotine swinging over my head..

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Also I want to ask about ME Barber, or whatever her name was, who mentored Watchman Nee. What do we know about her? I

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_E._Barber (but I think this info came from the LSM)

http://mebarber.ccws.org/letters/index.html ( I think this also came from LSM)

I could not find anything else.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_E._Barber (but I think this info came from the LSM)

http://mebarber.ccws.org/letters/index.html ( I think this also came from LSM)

I could not find anything else.

Between Darby and Nee, there was the need of another MOTA.

None of Darby's successors would do, so they looked elsewhere.

Since Barber had forsaken the denominations (well maybe not, but the Anglicans apparently dumped her), she became instantly qualified, having "perfected" Nee.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

What is MOTA? Where did the recovery say this about Madam Guyon? That explains a lot, as I heard her ideas were ascetic. Which to me, is a central problem in the recovery (some strong asceticism).
Also I want to ask about ME Barber, or whatever her name was, who mentored Watchman Nee. What do we know about her? I was told by someone in the church she was sent home as a missionary because of allegations of sexual sin by her fellow missionaries. (Of course they were saying they were false allegations.) Once she denied the allegations, she was sent back to be a missionary. And ultimately all her students left her because she was so harsh, except Nee. I wonder how long Nee was with her and what ages he was? I wonder if she was sexually inappropriate and that's why she drove most everyone away. Perhaps such a betrayal by a spiritual mentor is what partly caused Nee to act out sexually against women in the church, inspite of the fact he seemed genuinely spiritual. Do you think he was genuinely spiritual? It's all hard for me to understand, how he and Lee could be such crooks who so wronged, used, and deceived the church and yet spent so much time talking about, studying the Bible and talking about their relationships with God. It seems it must have been real for them, just mixed with some deep messed up stuff about them, and a very poor conscience. Though that confuses me too, WL seemed almost OCD about being so careful not to sin or to keep everything organized etc., and to confess everything.

Unregistered I just have to tell you I really enjoyed your brief paragraph. It was concise and yet loaded.

Hey, it's quite possible that Nee picked up his sexual loosey-goosey side from Barber. Then it was exposed by his confession to over 2500 in Shanghai, where Lee's sons had to pickup on it, and so carried on that side of Nee's legacy.

And Lee, who was completely use to covering up for Nees' sins (rape and brothels), found it business as usual to cover up for his son's sins.

Thanks, whoever you are, for your contribution. Hope to hear more from you ... and hope you join us.

Oh, and welcome.