Can I be candid?

[Guest M]

So I invited KwB to this forum. We grew up together, and were at the training together. I'm so glad she joined.

In the very short time I've been here, maybe what, 48 hours? I've seen several comments, both to me and to others, that have made it painfully clear this forum is mostly Christian friendly only. I have had a demand that I explain if I "accepted Jesus" as lord and savior, after very clearly stating that I am not even Christian and of a different religion.

That is not a question you ask someone who is following another religion. It would be absurd to have someone introduce themselves as Muslim, Jewish, or Hindu, and immediately ask them that question. That's why I haven't bothered answering it. That, and it came off as rude. Granted, it is not always easy to read tone, but still, the fact it was asked at all had the flavor of gearing up for an evangelical blitzkrieg. I will not be giving that satisfaction today. Interrogation is not in my planner and I'm busy.

I have also already had the comment that I follow a religion that has deities "we" now "know" are figments of the imagination. Also rude, condescending, and therefore not receiving a response. Maybe it was meant to be funny, but it's kind of like asking a person with dark skin, "where are you REALLY from?" As if to say, "I don't consider you to be an American."

Needless to say, I'm starting to get a little ticked off. I think it's the fact that I came here seeking refuge in the common experience of experiencing trauma from the LC. I had hoped that would be enough to give us common ground. Unfortunately, instead, I am being reminded of one of the worst things about the large majority of evangelical Christians: their terrible social etiquette.

I don't think I should have to tell even a virtual roomful of adults that it is disrespectful to talk to people of other religions as if yours is the only right one, and theirs is wrong or not as genuine, as both I and now my fellow ex "sister" have now experienced. When you do this, you are retraumatizing someone who has the same trauma as you, but adding further trauma to people who are further outside the fold as it were.

One reason this really pushes my buttons is I remember BEING this way. I remember how I couldn't make friends, how I couldn't connect on a genuine, human level that would have made me feel less alone, because I did not believe I could learn anything from anyone who was not just a Christian, but an LC Christian! I know you know what I'm talking about. How can you make a connection with people if all you see is someone who you need to save?

The fallacy is a lot more dangerous than that, too; I like others here could not seek out professional help in therapy because I did not believe it could help me with spiritual issues. I'm lucky I'm still alive. As you know, others have not been as lucky. That kind of arrogance, which is often found along evangelicals, but WORSE in LC culture, ensures isolation. It is very effective. So effective that some of you are still doing it.

Look, if this forum is only for Christians, I am fine respecting that. But I would appreciate some open, explicit clarity on that, as I have not been able to find a thorough description anywhere, nor have I been able to find a list of rules, if there is one. I am happy to play by the rules. My religion does not have an evangelism mandate. I'd be happy to answer genuine RESPECTFUL questions about it, but I don't need to talk about it, and honestly, I don't really want to open up conversations that are going to end up being dominated by one scriptual text. I have also noticed the little Alternative Views section (the name implies that everyone else otherwise has the *same* views), and was intending to go there if expressing myself there would be more appropriate...and more respectfully received. Once again, I'd appreciate clarity. I would like to stick around, but if this really is just LC-Lite, then I really don't belong here. And I don't like to see my sister, who has also JUST found a connection and a hopeful opportunity for healing, have to immediately deal with proselytizing and invalidating of her religious path. You want to pray for us heathens, go for it. Knock yourself out! I never turn down positive energy. But what exactly is the point of actually telling someone directly that they will eventually renounce their path (they won't) and you know what's best for them? Thinking it is one thing...but saying it to people is just rude and AWKWARD! Has anyone here learned anything since leaving the LC?! I'm admittedly incredulous. Have you all really never been in interfaith settings? Gotten to know people who are different from you? I can't help but wonder, what have you been doing??

Incidentally, I am not surprised if ex sisters aren't sticking around, if this is the normal climate. Although I know it is usually not intentional, the aggressive, domineering way men are socialized to interact and push a point is often a turn off to women who are looking for space to not have to take care of others, couch everything they say in the most diplomatic terms possible, and pretend to not actually be sure of what they are saying when they are. That is what WE are socialized to do.

And it gets exhausting, especially when you are in need of expressing deep hurts and baggage like everyone else. When this happens enough, women often end up seeking women-only spaces. That is one very likely factor, just if you were wondering. If you're really hurting for the double X chromosomes around here and that's a problem for you, I'm just saying, now might be a good time to practice not making the same mistake. That's all I'm saying.

So if we need to leave, I trust someone here will have the huevos to simply say so, so no one is wasting anyone else's time. If, however, we are welcome, then may I please respectfully ask everyone to remember how to BEHAVE?! And not be WEIRD?!

You can see why I would never have made it as a "sister" in the LC. You know what it's like to have the personality of a bear and constantly try to stuff it into the form of a rabbit?!

Fyi, I am Black too...and Afro-Latina. There is definitely a white-washed stepford wives complex in the LC. There is also idealising and orientalizing of Asian cultural beauty standards. It actually creeped me out so much as I got older, and would visit other sisters' houses...all the same, all quiet, all decorated in pastels and domestic...it was CREEPY. I was like, how am I ever going to be like that?! That is so not me!!! It scared me. I felt certain that one day I was going to have to somehow look, act, and live the same...that that's what it meant to follow the Lord completely. Even though that was ludicrous and impossible. I am so sorry, KwB, that you suffered so much of that. I experienced some as well but not quite as overtly. I tried so hard to deny my strong nature. It made me severely depressed, if you remember...depression sometimes being anger turned inward onto oneself. And I'm horrified by and sorry that you experience assault. I did not know that. I am weeping for you.

You are BEAUTIFUL. I trust you know that now. But I always thought so. And brilliant. So who needs them.

You know, the irony is that they don't have enough respect for the presence of women until it's too late. I remember that time they realized older sisters were dying, and they started to panic, and for like the first time, they actually started TALKING to us and suggesting we have a role as prayer warriors. They treat you real bad until they quickly realize they are running out of the pool of potential marriage partners. The vindictive side of me sometimes takes pleasure in imagining what their response would be if that finally started to happen. I wonder what that rapid culture change would end up looking like, how much weirdness they'd be willing to give up.

People really don't respect the power of collective mobilized female interests. The last time it went nutzo, there was a The Beatles. (Also, though, there were hair bands...)

Originally Posted by KindnessNotBlindness

Aron, thank you for the response. l am not a man hater and interestingly enough I had no problem with brothers leading. I had problems with the corruption, elitism, and entitlement the brothers embodied while taking the lead. Along with them trying to counsel others and they had no light or discernment. Very, very troubling!

[aron]

Originally Posted by KindnessNotBlindness

I do not read the Bible anymore because I promise you it's a comical read to me. Peace to you!

Originally Posted by Mysteria

I'd appreciate clarity. I would like to stick around, but if this really is just LC-Lite, then I really don't belong here.

I've been looking for other voices to find this forum for a long time. Hope you stick around.

#1 If there is a God, then He/She/It/Them probably is kooler with people who "don't believe", at least overtly/consciously, than with people who ram-rod their concepts down every one else's throats. That's my two cents, as an "evangelical Christian". Card-carrying, to boot.

Being nice is not theology, it is behavior, repeated behavior.

#2 It is good to hear from those who don't see things the way that you do. I really appreciate other perspectives. Even though I still call myself an evangelical Christian, my idea of the "gospel" has drastically changed over the past 5 years (I've been out of the LC for about 15 years). So how do I know it won't continue to evolve? Why be dogmatic? Jesus taught, do unto others . . . so if I want others to listen to me, I have to listen to others. Basic stuff here.

#3 We really need your voices to "speak truth to power" here, because the Christian view imho has been very very warped by temporal, earthly power, for centuries. It is worth noting that Jesus was offered temporal earthly power repeatedly, and repeatedly refused it.

"The crowd wanted to make Him king, but Jesus refused it"

and

"He continually withdrew"

and

"Who made me ruler over you?" (to the one who wanted Jesus to tell someone else to do something).

and

"Whoever wants to be great, be the last in stature"

etc.

So alternative views give us a chance to live what we talk. To treat "others" as if they was "us". Cuz they is "us".

You are not alone, at all. Just typically silent in these kinds of venues. In my "old locality" we had about 50 "young people" there 25 years ago. At least 30 every week, with another 20 or so in and out regularly. The last time I checked there were two still there. The rest were gone. How "local" is that? They were either "in the world" or "serving the ministry". Maybe a few had moved away and were meeting elsewhere. But the vast majority were gone.

Lastly, where I work we have Muslims, Christians, overt homosexuals, and the great indifferent masses. And we all get along. We all are part of the same team. Like I said, "they" is really "us". It's pretty basic. And I think that it approaches the Christian view. You know, love one another; not just the 'lovable' or 'lovely' ones.

So anyway, welcome home.

[Guest M]

Thank you, aron. I don't know if everyone here shares your openness. But good on you being evangelical and still so thoughtful and open.

I certainly intend to stick around, but that depends on whether or not I'm allowed to. Once again, if I could find the rules anywhere, that would be helpful. I'm sure not everyone appreciates me referencing "huevos." LOL I can talk good...I promise!

Originally Posted by aron

I've been looking for other voices to find this forum for a long time. Hope you stick around.

#1 If there is a God, then He/She/It/Them probably is kooler with people who "don't believe", at least overtly/consciously, than with people who ram-rod their concepts down every one else's throats. That's my two cents, as an "evangelical Christian". Card-carrying, to boot.

Being nice is not theology, it is behavior, repeated behavior.

#2 It is good to hear from those who don't see things the way that you do. I really appreciate other perspectives. Even though I still call myself an evangelical Christian, my idea of the "gospel" has drastically changed over the past 5 years (I've been out of the LC for about 15 years). So how do I know it won't continue to evolve? Why be dogmatic? Jesus taught, do unto others . . . so if I want others to listen to me, I have to listen to others. Basic stuff here.

#3 We really need your voices to "speak truth to power" here, because the Christian view imho has been very very warped by temporal, earthly power, for centuries. It is worth noting that Jesus was offered temporal earthly power repeatedly, and repeatedly refused it.

"The crowd wanted to make Him king, but Jesus refused it"

and

"He continually withdrew"

and

"Who made me ruler over you?" (to the one who wanted Jesus to tell someone else to do something).

and

"Whoever wants to be great, be the last in stature"

etc.

So alternative views give us a chance to live what we talk. To treat "others" as if they was "us". Cuz they is "us".

[OnHisPath]

Originally Posted by Mysteria

Thank you, aron. I don't know if everyone here shares your openness. But good on you being evangelical and still so thoughtful and open.

I certainly intend to stick around, but that depends on whether or not I'm allowed to. Once again, if I could find the rules anywhere, that would be helpful. I'm sure not everyone appreciates me referencing "huevos." LOL I can talk good...I promise!

Hi Mysteria,

I'm so proud to say that I appreciated your "huevos" reference. I read it and thought, "I wonder if she meant to say...ohhhhhhh, I see what she did there!" Glad to have your voice and perspective here. Reminds me to be a participant rather than just a lurker.

[Guest M]

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Well I've resolved to do what I suggested everyone here do and see if I can BEHAVE myself. :P

Originally Posted by OnHisPath

Hi Mysteria,

I'm so proud to say that I appreciated your "huevos" reference. I read it and thought, "I wonder if she meant to say...ohhhhhhh, I see what she did there!" Glad to have your voice and perspective here. Reminds me to be a participant rather than just a lurker.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Mysteria

I have also already had the comment that I follow a religion that has deities "we" now "know" are figments of the imagination. Also rude, condescending, and therefore not receiving a response.

Mysteria, I'm so sorry that you've been so traumatized by the local church that you've become too sensitive to discuss your paganism.

Everyone, I'm the one that asked her on her blog, about believing in gods that we now know to be figments of the imagination. Here's what I posted on her blog :

So what is it about Paganism that you like? Surely it couldn’t be believing in gods we now know as figments of the imagination. It must be something else.

So Mysteria, you consider that question to be rude and condescending, why? Can't we discuss it openly, without offense being taken? Maybe I've read too much mythology, and about too many of the gods from those ancient days. Or maybe you don't know anything about such matters, and that's why you become offended.

But okay, just come out here and express yourself -- I love it -- and we won't respond, cuz we might be rude and condescending if we do. How are we ever going to know what offends you?

Maybe right now you're too raw to be on a forum, or have a blog. Maybe you need more time to heal.

That said, I'm sorry if I offended you on your blog. That was not my intention at all. I'll just butt out. I hope for your speedy recovery. And that was intentionally condescending. Feel free to be rude to me. I've healed from my local church trauma, I can take it.

[Guest M]

You can be as condescending as you like. I can also take it. I just don't put up with it. It kinda doesn't seem like you can, though...

I *am* a little raw, true, particularly after the things coming up from joining here and what it brings back. As to not being "ready," it's been years since I was in the LC. I've done plenty of processing. I would not say I'm easily offended, and I'm certainly knowledgeable about the topic. Also, I love discussing it when people are interested.

What I'm struggling to understand is why you would be surprised that question would be offensive? I realize that most of the time when people say things like what I listed, they have no idea they are being offensive. But I feel like for thinking people, it should not be too much of a stretch to consider their words when talking to someone of a different background. Sure we can discuss it openly. But I have to say, I don't quite understand exactly why you would not think that telling a person their religion involves fake deities might not be offensive, and even deliberate?

Granted, it is not often people run into neo pagans unless you're in certain circles, so your question reflects i think the cultural assumption that other mythologies are widely accepted to be fairy tales. But that doesn't translate to me why you might ask the question you did in a way that implies surely it CAN'T be that? Maybe you meant it to be lighthearted, but I would like to think you can understand how that might not be the best thing to say to someone of an unfamiliar religion?

Context wise, your timing may just have been unfortunate, considering there were several things, not all here, that added up to my agitation. ALL of that was not directed at you, and I'm sorry if you received it that way. But I think just as it is useful for someone like me to be able to not be easily offended, it is useful for someone like you to be willing to accept criticism for appearing to not take someone else's beliefs as seriously as your own, whether you meant to or not.

I can empathize with being misunderstood. I would readily apologize if that's the case, and you can help me understand that that's what happened. That being said, reacting the way you are, passive-aggressively insulting me and suggesting I'm not knowledgeable (which I am) or can't talk about my religion (which I do regularly) is not the most graceful way to handle it. And if you think that's going to work in making me feel bad, or drive me away, erm...you haven't been paying attention. The "you're too sensitive" reaction is a familiar tactic to remove personal responsibility, and I'm not in the habit of indulging it.

Why don't we start over? What exactly is the question you meant to ask me? Your original question comes off as rhetorical, not like you really expected an answer. I was actually very surprised by it. Maybe your actual inquiry was lost in translation? Keeping in mind the challenges of communicating through text...

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Mysteria

You can be as condescending as you like. I can also take it. I just don't put up with it. It kinda doesn't seem like you can, though...

I *am* a little raw, true, particularly after the things coming up from joining here and what it brings back. As to not being "ready," it's been years since I was in the LC. I've done plenty of processing. I would not say I'm easily offended, and I'm certainly knowledgeable about the topic. Also, I love discussing it when people are interested.

What I'm struggling to understand is why you would be surprised that question would be offensive? I realize that most of the time when people say things like what I listed, they have no idea they are being offensive. But I feel like for thinking people, it should not be too much of a stretch to consider their words when talking to someone of a different background. Sure we can discuss it openly. But I have to say, I don't quite understand exactly why you would not think that telling a person their religion involves fake deities might not be offensive, and even deliberate?

Okay, I understand now. The pagan gods are real to you. Which ones? All of them? I guess I've been spoiled. I'm a big fan of mythology, and have read many books on it, many by Joseph Campbell, the MOTA of a different sort, the Mythologist of the Age ; books like "A Hero with a Thousand Faces," and "Masks of God" - 4 books : Primitive Mythology, Oriental Mythology, Occidental Mythology, and Creative Mythology. They cover the whole gambit of gods, all the way back to the first and only universal religion on planet earth (that we know about): Animism.

So my question about your paganism, and gods that are figments was no big deal to me. There are thousands of them. All the mega-myths of old, that provided cohesion to early civilizations, are now considered false constructs, or figments if you will. But even tho they were false they were still functional. Beliefs don't have to be real to produce positive results. Early civilization builders believed that the purpose of humans were to serve the gods, and that their leader was God's representative on earth. So they served the leader. We have the Pyramids because of those beliefs. They were false beliefs, but still worked to build civilizations.

I was honestly hoping you would tell me what you like about paganism. But okay. I screwed up, and called your gods phony. You don't know me yet, but I've said that out here about the depiction of God in the Old Testament ... and in the book of Revelation. I think those are phony depictions of God ... and have taken heat for saying it, as expected.

I don't have any problems discussing these kinds of things. And I know it upsets believers. But that's where I have arrived after years of coming out of the local church. Just as you have arrived at paganism, and your friend Kindness, that has arrived at atheism (to no gods whatsoever).

I guess we all have different paths. I think I've pointed that out with exLCer friends that I have.

Maybe we just got off on the wrong foot. My bad. Sorry. Let's try again.

[Guest M]

I screwed up too. It just took a moment for me to return from hulk form.

Awareness, I am sorry that I misread your question and assumed it was hostile.

And I apologize to EVERYONE here for similarly assuming the worst. I am embarrassed.

The truth is, several people have mentioned that this forum is mostly Christian, and I felt initially so discouraged and bummed out by that I was reading everything through that lens.

Also, I have to admit I have had the luxury of being around people of like mind for several years now. Yikes! I have to remember that fringe groups are exactly that. They aren't necessarily the norm. I have not been around a group of Christians for a while now.

Apologies to countmeworthy too because I did not read your responses very carefully, and I was feeling very protective of my friend. Because of that I missed the beautiful story you were telling me of your healing! That is an awesome story. I love stuff like that.

I *am* able to admit when I'm wrong even though I don't like doing it. :P I sometimes have to have the tantrum first. I'm sorry, Awareness. I just didn't want to lose what I thought I'd just found.

I spent so much of my life apologizing for what OTHER people do, at the expense of myself, that when I realized that's what I was doing, I began to condition myself to do the opposite. And let's face it...I assume everyone has noticed I have some slight anger issues...LOL

Okay, to briefly touch on your question, as I'm about to leave and I want to give more thought to it, I don't believe the gods are "real" in the sense that I once believed in Jesus. I (and this is common, actually) accept them as facets and manifestations of the divine, AND at the same time hold space for them as being merely archetypes. I'm of a similar opinion that something doesn't have to be objectively real to be useful, and since none of us can prove anything anyway, except that what one believes does in some respect shape the world around them and their experience of it, I've made it a conscious choice because it makes me happy.

I'm so happy and excited people here actually want to know about mine and other beliefs...and I'm also humbled, because I wasn't expecting that.

Please ya'll forgive me for being awkward. I got a little spooked, that's all. I do very much want to get to know all of you.

Originally Posted by awareness

Okay, I understand now. The pagan gods are real to you. Which ones? All of them? I guess I've been spoiled. I'm a big fan of mythology, and have read many books on it, many by Joseph Campbell, the MOTA of a different sort, the Mythologist of the Age ; books like "A Hero with a Thousand Faces," and "Masks of God" - 4 books : Primitive Mythology, Oriental Mythology, Occidental Mythology, and Creative Mythology. They cover the whole gambit of gods, all the way back to the first and only universal religion on planet earth (that we know about): Animism.

So my question about your paganism, and gods that are figments was no big deal to me. There are thousands of them. All the mega-myths of old, that provided cohesion to early civilizations, are now considered false constructs, or figments if you will. But even tho they were false they were still functional. Beliefs don't have to be real to produce positive results. Early civilization builders believed that the purpose of humans were to serve the gods, and that their leader was God's representative on earth. So they served the leader. We have the Pyramids because of those beliefs. They were false beliefs, but still worked to build civilizations.

I was honestly hoping you would tell me what you like about paganism. But okay. I screwed up, and called your gods phony. You don't know me yet, but I've said that out here about the depiction of God in the Old Testament ... and in the book of Revelation. I think those are phony depictions of God ... and have taken heat for saying it, as expected.

I don't have any problems discussing these kinds of things. And I know it upsets believers. But that's where I have arrived after years of coming out of the local church. Just as you have arrived at paganism, and your friend Kindness, that has arrived at atheism (to no gods whatsoever).

I guess we all have different paths. I think I've pointed that out with exLCer friends that I have.

Maybe we just got off on the wrong foot. My bad. Sorry. Let's try again.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Mysteria

I screwed up too. It just took a moment for me to return from hulk form.

Awareness, I am sorry that I misread your question and assumed it was hostile.

I guess I can sound hostile. So I'm sorry for that.

Originally Posted by Mysteria

And I apologize to EVERYONE here for similarly assuming the worst. I am embarrassed.

Me too.

Originally Posted by Mysteria

The truth is, several people have mentioned that this forum is mostly Christian, and I felt initially so discouraged and bummed out by that I was reading everything through that lens.

Most, but not everybody, remains Christian after leaving the LC. It's hard to get it out of your system, and many don't want to. I've noticed that people go thru kind of stages after leaving, and the longer one is out, and the stages they go thru, frees them more and more from the LC Kool-Aid they've been drinking for so long. Seems that Kool-Aid becomes integrated down to the cellular level, and is hard to get rid of. It takes time. Please don't hold it against anyone on this forum for being Christian. Let's be 'christian' toward each others differences, even IF they are not Christian, or if they are.

Originally Posted by Mystica

I have not been around a group of Christians for a while now.

I've tried over the years, but have found Christians are hard to be around, unless I keep my mouth shut ... which is impossible. Since the local church I have low tolerance for pretend spirituality. I've been known to snap at anyone claiming they know what God wants for me, for example.

Originally Posted by Mysteria

I *am* able to admit when I'm wrong even though I don't like doing it. :P I sometimes have to have the tantrum first. I'm sorry, Awareness. I just didn't want to lose what I thought I'd just found.

I'm just the opposite, I guess. I've been wrong so many times I've grown use to it. I can't trust myself any more.

And you've lost nothing. And won't if I can help it.

Originally Posted by Mystica

I assume everyone has noticed I have some slight anger issues...LOL

If it helps feel free to get angry at me any time. Many out here will vouch that I don't tend to get angry over any of this stuff, or our discussions, even when attacked, but I can make angry. I'm handy at that. I guess this is a case in point. lol.

Originally Posted by Mystica

Okay, to briefly touch on your question, as I'm about to leave and I want to give more thought to it, I don't believe the gods are "real" in the sense that I once believed in Jesus. I (and this is common, actually) accept them as facets and manifestations of the divine, AND at the same time hold space for them as being merely archetypes. I'm of a similar opinion that something doesn't have to be objectively real to be useful, and since none of us can prove anything anyway, except that what one believes does in some respect shape the world around them and their experience of it, I've made it a conscious choice because it makes me happy.

Now we're talking. Now I understand your paganism, to some extent anyway. I believe the gods were invented to represent unseeable forces. Poseidon is a prime example, being the god of the forces of the sea. I get it now, I hope. Question : Is paganism providing connections that you weren't connected to in the LC?

Originally Posted by Mysteria

I'm so happy and excited people here actually want to know about mine and other beliefs...and I'm also humbled, because I wasn't expecting that.

Me neither. But I'm delighted you gals have come here to share what you've gone thru since leaving the LC. We SHOULD be totally behind you. We should identify.

Originally Posted by Mysteria

Please ya'll forgive me for being awkward. I got a little spooked, that's all. I do very much want to get to know all of you.

And you will, if you will please do us the honor of hanging around.

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

Most, but not everybody, remains Christian after leaving the LC. It's hard to get it out of your system, and many don't want to. I've noticed that people go thru kind of stages after leaving, and the longer one is out, and the stages they go thru, frees them more and more from the LC Kool-Aid they've been drinking for so long. Seems that Kool-Aid becomes integrated down to the cellular level, and is hard to get rid of. .

The LSM/lc programme is immersive and all-encompassing. For years after I left them physically, and met with other Christians, I'd sit in a meeting and I'd think, "Hmpf - that's not God's economy".

My own path led me, eventually, through a very wonderful 'functionally agnostic' period where I forgot all about God, learned to think again, and learned to take responsibility for my own emotional well-being instead of being co-dependent on some manipulative system.

So I have a lot of tolerance today for "alternative viewpoints". And as I tolerate and respect others, lo and behold others begin to show me tolerance and respect, too! The old "give and it will be given unto you" rubric really works. Fancy that.

And I no longer need the "right church" or artfully constructed theological matrix to make me whole. That was never God's plan for me.

[Guest M]

I don't know how to do this formatting yet. Sorry!

I guess I can sound hostile. So I'm sorry for that.


Now that I think about it, and I can't believe I missed this, but I'm wondering why SHOULD you or anyone else automatically understand neo-pagan to have anything to do with the pagan gods? For the sake of PR mainly (and by PR, I mean not being burned at the stake or having their reputations ruined by fear) the neo-pagan movement has emphasized connection with the natural world. So I can see that my assumption might not have been as obvious as I thought it was.

Most, but not everybody, remains Christian after leaving the LC. It's hard to get it out of your system, and many don't want to. I've noticed that people go thru kind of stages after leaving, and the longer one is out, and the stages they go thru, frees them more and more from the LC Kool-Aid they've been drinking for so long. Seems that Kool-Aid becomes integrated down to the cellular level, and is hard to get rid of. It takes time. Please don't hold it against anyone on this forum for being Christian. Let's be 'christian' toward each others differences, even IF they are not Christian, or if they are.

yes that's fair! Yeah. I chalk this up a lot to the conditioning of fear, speaking from my own experience (which may not be wholely representative). I'll get into that later when I tell my story, which I'll probably do on the Alt views section at some point. But if there is one spiritual truth I have learned, regardless of belief system, it is the power of fear and its capacity to BE the evil it claims to be afraid of. The fear of making a mistake. The fear of being lost, somehow, of falling over some invisible edge past being rescued, because you were too stupid, and of COURSE you shouldn't have trusted yourself to know right from wrong.

I WAS that Christian who fantasized about being in spiritual warfare with people minding their own business. And I was incapacitated by fear to the point that it was difficult to enter adulthood, where you have to make choices, and no one can make them for you. I saw how crippled I was by fear.

I got tired. I was still afraid, but I was more tired by then. I realized I had to know. I had to know what I didn't know, and stop guessing or taking other peoples' word for everything. So I decided to look into the darkness (meaning the scary unknown) as it were, and face it, whatever it was. Lo and behold, not scary at all. Not nearly as scary as what fear makes people do, nor as scary as realizing no one is responsible for your life, but yourself, and you as a human being have great power and potential without necessarily certainty of wisdom to use it.

I've tried over the years, but have found Christians are hard to be around, unless I keep my mouth shut ... which is impossible. Since the local church I have low tolerance for pretend spirituality. I've been known to snap at anyone claiming they know what God wants for me, for example.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Impossible. I guess I know what that is like. This will be good practice for me in patience.

And you've lost nothing. And won't if I can help it.

*warm fuzzy* From what I hear, if you made it here, I should be okay?!


If it helps feel free to get angry at me any time. Many out here will vouch that I don't tend to get angry over any of this stuff, or our discussions, even when attacked, but I can make angry. I'm handy at that. I guess this is a case in point. lol.[/I]


Agent of chaos! :P Anger has helped me out a lot in life. But I'm at a point where I don't want to be ruled by it. If you or anyone else makes me angry, that's a choice I made....at least in part!

Now we're talking. Now I understand your paganism, to some extent anyway. I believe the gods were invented to represent unseeable forces. Poseidon is a prime example, being the god of the forces of the sea. I get it now, I hope. Question : Is paganism providing connections that you weren't connected to in the LC?

It does, but here's what you have to understand, if you can. It might make more sense when I get around to telling my story from beginning to end. To me, my polythiestic, animist way of looking at God and all creation is simply the other side of a mirror. I experienced all I could with monotheism. I couldn't squeeze out more. I HAD to go another way to continue my relationship with God (the divine or sacred by whatever name you know it), so I challenged myself.

And again, it's not like I intended to. I literally outgrew Christianity. I couldn't stay there. I see my change in religion as a rites of passage, the kind you can't stop. Sooner or later, everyone grows up. Sooner or later, everyone dies. Sooner or later, we all have to face the mysterious and find our own answers. So I did. And it took a while, but I never once have felt my relationship with God interrupted. I was very fortunate to have a good model in my mother, and my parents in general, who taught me early on that everyone has a conscience.

And she taught me the importance of hearing wisdom intuitively, "God's voice" if you will, and being able to know that rather than depending on what other people demand that it is. She would say to me, "There comes a time when every Christian has to walk alone." By that she meant that God's plan for each person is not ever going to make 100% sense to anyone else who isn't that person. So you have to learn to trust yourself, and your relationship with God.

This is just one of many spiritual truths that I learned as a Christian, that still serve me and feel like universal truths. It has saved me a lot of heartache and further prolonged abuse that I could have experienced, even by well meaning people.

I've also been able to wrestle with things as a pagan that I am pretty sure I would have had to wrestle with Christianity. I didn't just get to leave behind everything I didn't like. It was nice and a reprieve to live in a world that was not defined by or did not depend on Christianity, either positively or negatively. To live a reality where it was pretty much irrelevant. It's so influential in the world that you don't even have to be a Christian to be affected by the way it has shaped our culture and world history.

Even a Satanist only makes sense in the context of the Christian worldview, and they fully acknowledge this, which is why to them Satan is a symbol and they are actually mostly athiest. Their religion is literally a reaction against another.

When Christianity defines EVERYthing it relation to it, it is hard to get at the real meaning of things, to see things purely. You can't fit things into a world view that don't belong there. But whether people want to believe it or not, it was never the only path to God, and it is not now. It was once the shiny new thing. But it's truths weren't. The sacred wasn't. It's there as it is everywhere else when you're looking.

And sometimes a person needs a break. Sometimes it helps to see things from a different point of view. I have actually come to appreciate some things about the Bible and Christian spirituality a tad more SINCE I've become a pagan. That's because I have a better understanding of the symbols, language, and cultural background, which I wanted to have as a Christian anyway. There are parts that still resonate with me, and they mean more to me for that timelessness.

And now they stand out very clearly against the silliness that people tack on around them and obscure them with. It's like someone else here said a bit ago: Truth is truth. To that person, they have only one truth, and there are no others that can be real. To me, our truth is the same. I don't need mine to be the only way for it to have the power it does.

I've gone off on a bit of a tangent to your question; it is hard to get into the connections that I make differently. They're very personal, and I don't really want to necessarily hang them in the open to be disrespected or belittled. Pearls before swine and all that. (Pigs are smart so that's not an insult. It's just that they have little use for pearls!)

I suppose at some point it's better to do less talking and more getting to know people. I can't think of any argument that is stronger than relationship.

Me neither. But I'm delighted you gals have come here to share what you've gone thru since leaving the LC. We SHOULD be totally behind you. We should identify.[/I]

That is awesome of you to say! Likewise.

And you will, if you will please do us the honor of hanging around.


Oh, we're honored now?! *puffs chest proudly*

[aron]

Originally Posted by Mysteria

I am not surprised if ex sisters aren't sticking around, if this is the normal climate. Although I know it is usually not intentional, the aggressive, domineering way men are socialized to interact and push a point is often a turn off to women who are looking for space to not have to take care of others, couch everything they say in the most diplomatic terms possible, and pretend to not actually be sure of what they are saying when they are. That is what WE are socialized to do.

And it gets exhausting, especially when you are in need of expressing deep hurts and baggage like everyone else. When this happens enough, women often end up seeking women-only spaces. That is one very likely factor, just if you were wondering.

I'm a man and think like a man (which has its plusses and minuses). One thing I occasionally think about is how a movement whose early collective expression and experience was so clearly influnced by women (e.g., Margaret Barber, Jessie Penn-Lewis, Madame Guyon, Mary McDonough) ended up being a place where women had to sit staring at the opposite wall, pretending to be brain-dead?

Here's a quote showing the obvious early influence of women.

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

For a variety of reasons, including the anti-Western movement of the 1920s, many Chinese Christian leaders were seeking ways to form indigenous churches that would be free from Western missionary control. Having moved to the International Settlement in Shanghai in 1926, Ni constituted in 1932 a group of “apostolic” co-workers that would lead what became the Little Flock Movement: Wang Peizhen (Peace Wang) and Li Yuanru (Ruth Lee), with Ni himself as supreme. They soon grew from a small household gathering to a network of local churches.

By G. Wright Doyle, Director, Global China Center; English Editor, Biographical Dictionary of Chinese Christianity, Charlottesville, Virginia, USA.

So, what happened?I mean, doesn't anyone see the glaring dis-connect between what the Ni/Li movement once was, and what it became? I wonder how the rank-and-file, especially women, don't see this. It's just too obvious that something's amiss.

90 years ago, Dora Yu could be a lioness of the "early recovery" but today, when women can be President of the USA, they can't speak except "under the covering", i.e. abject servility. . . ? And don't tell me that Barber or Penn-Lewis had some male "covering" - they didn't.

How can an intelligent, college-educated female sit there in the FTTA & not wonder at this? How can anyone not wonder at this?

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by aron

How can an intelligent, college-educated female sit there in the FTTA & not wonder at this? How can anyone not wonder at this?

The power of control, the power of Jezebel is stronger than you know Aron. Intelligence has nothing to do with that spirit. Fear of being rejected, of being outcasted especially from those you love will override intelligence.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

90 years ago, Dora Yu could be a lioness of the "early recovery" but today, when women can be President of the USA, they can't speak except "under the covering", i.e. abject servility. . . ? And don't tell me that Barber or Penn-Lewis had some male "covering" - they didn't.

How can an intelligent, college-educated female sit there in the FTTA & not wonder at this? How can anyone not wonder at this?

Here's the link to Dora Yu's Wikipedia web page. Most of the data comes from one of the LSM/lc senior brothers, Silas Wu, a close associate of Witness Lee since the initial 1950s mainland-to-Taiwan exodus, who eventually wrote a book on her (cited at the end of the page). She was Watchman Nee's "spiritual mother", who was his (and others') "mentor" in the "inner life" practices. . . .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dora_Yu

So how come Watchman Nee's female mentor got her own web page but today no women can minister in Nee's spin-off, the LSM/lc? Talk about Bizarro World.

https://www.amazon.com/Dora-Christia.../dp/0970341229

The whole thing only has logical coherence if you see that it was always about power - temporal, earthly power - the acquisition and maintenance of fallen, fleshly human-centric power systems. In this light, women were initially expedient to the cause, necessary even, but once they were no longer needed they were put back down, "in their place". Shades of 1984 - "Four legs good, two legs even better!!!"

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Mysteria

Look, if this forum is only for Christians, I am fine respecting that. But I would appreciate some open, explicit clarity on that, as I have not been able to find a thorough description anywhere, nor have I been able to find a list of rules, if there is one.

Thanks to you and KindnessNotBlindness for taking the time to register and post on our forum. While I wouldn't say "this forum is only for Christians", I must tell you that the general worldview and understanding of the grand metanerrative of the vast majority of our forum members is evangelical/orthodox. Above and beyond this, I would also tell you that for many (most?) of us the answer to false religion is not to abandon the God of the Bible, or the Judeo-Christian Scriptures from which He speaks, but rather to seek Him more fervently and ever more closely through the Truth, light, grace and mercy provided for us in those very Scriptures, and the Spirit of Truth who will "guide us into all truth".

As you have already discovered, we have set up a sub-forum for discussions between folks who have a decidedly different worldview and even those who consider themselves as atheist, or at least agnostic. I think you and KnB would find yourselves much more comfortable over on AltViews. It was perfectly fine for you guys to post your opening introductions/testimonies on that this sub-forum, but for further, more comprehensive/in depth discussions, I really think AltViews is more up your alley.

Thanks again for registering and posting.

UntoHim
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[Guest M]

That's okay, UntoHim. If what you're telling me is what the "majority" viewpoint is, and not a rule, that's fine. I will use the Alt space for more in depth explanations at some point...and only because people have inquired.

Otherwise I'm just happy to be able to claim my space among other people who had their own journeys out of the LC. Several people have demonstrated here that they are open-minded and humble toward others, also, for which I'm very thankful.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Thanks to you and KindnessNotBlindness for taking the time to register and post on our forum. While I wouldn't say "this forum is only for Christians", I must tell you that the general worldview and understanding of the grand metanerrative of the vast majority of our forum members is evangelical/orthodox. Above and beyond this, I would also tell you that for many (most?) of us the answer to false religion is not to abandon the God of the Bible, or the Judeo-Christian Scriptures from which He speaks, but rather to seek Him more fervently and ever more closely through the Truth, light, grace and mercy provided for us in those very Scriptures, and the Spirit of Truth who will "guide us into all truth".

As you have already discovered, we have set up a sub-forum for discussions between folks who have a decidedly different worldview and even those who consider themselves as atheist, or at least agnostic. I think you and KnB would find yourselves much more comfortable over on AltViews. It was perfectly fine for you guys to post your opening introductions/testimonies on that this sub-forum, but for further, more comprehensive/in depth discussions, I really think AltViews is more up your alley.

Thanks again for registering and posting.

UntoHim
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