Why Everyone Else is a Denomination

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Why can't we be the us in 1 John 2:19?

You can call yourself whatever you want. That doesn't mean that anyone else needs to buy into it.

Sectarian with respect to what visible church? I think a sectarian person is someone who attends a denomination because by definition a denomination is a sect. You see, denominations will spin this around and say anyone who does not agree with them is a sect. Catholics did that with Protestants and Protestants with other protestants, and so on. Let's stick to the absolute definitions. Without these solid definitions everything is relative.

Evangelical, you are just the same as everyone else. The Catholics and Protestants you talk about are sectarian, but you are worse. Not only are you sectarian, you are judgmental. You want to make it technical, but it is a heart-matter.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

You can call yourself whatever you want. That doesn't mean that anyone else needs to buy into it.

According to 1 John 2:19 it seems acceptable to refer to believers as "us" and "they" or "them". If not, why not?

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Evangelical, you are just the same as everyone else. The Catholics and Protestants you talk about are sectarian, but you are worse. Not only are you sectarian, you are judgmental. You want to make it technical, but it is a heart-matter.

If Catholics, Protestants, and us who stand for the church in the city are sectarian and we are worse, then I'm wondering which church is not sectarian?

Which church or churches is the visible expression of the church in X?

Three choices really
1) Every church
2) No church
3) some church

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

According to 1 John 2:19 it seems acceptable to refer to believers as "us" and "they" or "them". If not, why not?

Read your Bible (in context). John is talking about "antichrists" (1 John 2:18). It has nothing to do with your "us" vs "them." That you equate this distinction with believers not meeting with your group is arrogant beyond belief.

If Catholics, Protestants, and us who stand for the church in the city are sectarian and we are worse, then I'm wondering which church is not sectarian?

Which church or churches is the visible expression of the church in X?

Three choices really
1) Every church
2) No church
3) some church

The church is believers. You should know this. Every time you make a distinction between yourself ("us") and any other genuine believers ("them") you are sectarian.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Us-vs-them is the definition of sectarianism.
The verse appears to be referring to certain ones who left the faith. That you equate this distinction with believers not meeting with your group is arrogant beyond belief.

The NLT version says it plainly:

These people left our churches, but they never really belonged with us; otherwise they would have stayed with us. When they left, it proved that they did not belong with us.


Is that being sectarian? Do we really know they were unbelievers (it doesn't explicitly say). It seems to refer to those who disagreed with the apostle's teachings or held some aberrant views.

Originally Posted by Koinonia

The church is believers. You should know this. Every time you make a distinction between yourself ("us") and any other genuine believe ("them") you are sectarian.

So Luther was sectarian, and Calvin, and everyone else? It seems like you are not standing for anything that could represent the true visible church in X.

It is almost saying that if we pretend that we are all in the same church, we are not sectarian, but if we point out the fact that we are not all in the same church, we are sectarian.

I thought it should be, if we are in a sect, we are sectarian, if we are in the true church, we are not.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The NLT version says it plainly:
These people left our churches, but they never really belonged with us; otherwise they would have stayed with us. When they left, it proved that they did not belong with us.

Is that being sectarian?

Evangelical, you are embarrassing yourself. In this section John is referring to "antichrists" (see verse 2:18). Why are you equating this to people that do not meet with your group?

So Luther was sectarian, and Calvin, and everyone else?

If we pretend that we are all in the same church, we are not sectarian, but if we point out the fact that we are not all in the same church, we are sectarian.

I thought it should be, if we are in a sect, we are sectarian, if we are in the true church, we are not.

Your group is not the "true church."

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Evangelical, you are embarrassing yourself. In this section John is referring to "antichrists" (see verse 2:18). Why are you equating this to people that do not meet with your group?

I think it does not matter who they were or why they left. It's basically saying, "people left our church, since they left it proves they never really belonged". John refers to "us and them".

Suppose these people were not anti-christ but wanted to leave to start their own denomination according to their own preference, would not John say the same thing?

I think John, being the last apostle/disciple alive at the time, would not have included as "us" any who did not stay with the apostle's teaching. To leave John's teaching and John's fellowship was like leaving Christ.

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Your group is not the "true church."

OK. So what do we have to be like to be the true church?

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I think it does not matter who they were or why they left. It's basically saying, "people left our church, since they left it proves they never really belonged". John refers to "us and them".

Suppose these people were not anti-christ but wanted to leave to start their own denomination according to their own preference, would not John say the same thing?

I think John, being the last apostle/disciple alive at the time, would not have included as "us" any who did not stay with the apostle's teaching. To leave John's teaching and John's fellowship was like leaving Christ.

Again, you are equating your Witness Lee group with the universal church.

OK. So what do we have to be like to be the true church?

You can't "do" anything. Are you a believer, Evangelical? Then, you are part of the church.