The Unique Move of God

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Obw it is clear we have different definitions of religion. But my definition is the one held by most born again evangelical protestants ..i already posted got questions. Org.

The definition you subscribe to implies that christianity is a religion and not a relationship. It is more a catholic view.

Quoting any site that does not reveal its own sources is not very meaningful. I looked into a few items there and found it to have its own collection of particulars on issues for which the solution is not so simple. And they quote from authors that are strongly at odds with each other as if they are no the same page.

As for the statement "Christianity is not a religion but a relationship," even that is not a correct assessment of Christianity. The whole "it is a relationship" is to ignore that it is also a requirement. It is commands that are to be obeyed. Not just emotions and feelings flowing between persons in "a relationship." The simplistic "not religion" but "is relationship," as if that is all there is to it, is a denial of the requirement for action and obedience. It distills the Christian life down to "spiritual" activities of prayer and praise and "secular" activities like living in this world. It denies the commands of Christ and removes all burdens to do more than "learn more about Jesus." Get to know him better.

It needs lots of grace because we are constantly short of the glory of God since we don't even try. (And it despises the word "try.")

You love to find someone who sort-of-kinda-seems-to-agree-with-you and stick them out there as if that is the end of the search.

Try again. Find the real analysis that determines from the scripture that putting the label "religion" on the fullness of activities and life of the Christian is incorrect or is rejected by the scripture. You won't find it. It is only the ones who want to stuff things in a box so as to hide the truth about them and then declare that everything in the box is bad who say religion is just bad. Or people who have never really thought about what they are thinking or saying.

[Evangelical]

Even Rick Warren says Christianity is not a religion.

Let us agree to disagree on the meaning of the word religion and religious activity, and try to agree on what we mean. I or we (i.e. Rick Warren and I ) , might say that religious activity is anything we do for God without using our spirit. What doth thou sayest?

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Even Rick Warren says Christianity is not a religion.

Rick Warren is just like so many others in this day. It is trendy to say that Christianity is not a religion. That is because they have bought into the overly narrowed definition of religion. In making those kinds of statements, they ignore that the Bible itself refers to the Christian life as religion. Therefore those comments are based on a rejection of what the Bible says and acceptance of the alternate meaning of "religion." This can only be understood as an effort by some to divide believers, and is obviously sucking otherwise good Christians into its net. Rather than standing for truth, people like you alter the meaning of words for the purpose of creating a separate religion that is solely yours and excludes others.

And yes, your is also a religion. But I am not sure how Christian it really is.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by OBW

Rick Warren is just like so many others in this day. It is trendy to say that Christianity is not a religion. That is because they have bought into the overly narrowed definition of religion. In making those kinds of statements, they ignore that the Bible itself refers to the Christian life as religion. Therefore those comments are based on a rejection of what the Bible says and acceptance of the alternate meaning of "religion." This can only be understood as an effort by some to divide believers, and is obviously sucking otherwise good Christians into its net. Rather than standing for truth, people like you alter the meaning of words for the purpose of creating a separate religion that is solely yours and excludes others.

And yes, your is also a religion. But I am not sure how Christian it really is.

As I showed by quoting Rick Warren, gotquestions.org, and there are many others, the notion that Christianity is not a religion is borne of the reality and experience that it is a personal relationship with Christ. This idea has been around a lot time in evangelical Christianity, probably since the time of the great revivals and since people realized that being a Christian was not about going to church and doing so many things.

The bible never really defines religion, "religion is...". The verse in James is not meant to be a definition of religion but to explain what charitable activities are pleasing to God. If we think the verse in James is a definition of religion, then it means that Christianity is about taking care of orphans and widows, and not anything to do with the gospel, or Christ dying on the cross. Just take care of your widowed great grandmother and you are a Christian! which is absurd. It is clearly not meant to be a defining statement of what religion is.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

As I showed by quoting Rick Warren, gotquestions.org, and there are many others, the notion that Christianity is not a religion is borne of the reality and experience that it is a personal relationship with Christ. This idea has been around a lot time in evangelical Christianity, probably since the time of the great revivals and since people realized that being a Christian was not about going to church and doing so many things.

The bible never really defines religion, "religion is...". The verse in James is not meant to be a definition of religion but to explain what charitable activities are pleasing to God. If we think the verse in James is a definition of religion, then it means that Christianity is about taking care of orphans and widows, and not anything to do with the gospel, or Christ dying on the cross. Just take care of your widowed great grandmother and you are a Christian! which is absurd. It is clearly not meant to be a defining statement of what religion is.

You are correct, the Bible dos not define religion. It just used it in a positive way.

As for the trendy "Christianity is not a religion" mantra, that is a modern fantasy. If there is anything to learn about this thing we call "the faith," it is that nothing about it is really different after all these years. The culture in which Christians find themselves changes. The ability of the average Christian to actually read, and own a Bible has changed. But the truth in it has not. It has been understood as religion positively by its adherents for centuries. It is only the modern need for avoiding "doing" anything that has turned against the truth in the Bible. And the need of some to label what we do with a different word than the one that is also placed upon other religions like Islam, Buddhism, etc. But if you turn to the dictionary, religion remains a perfectly good word to describe the positive aspects of what we as Christians are engaged in, and do, related to our "relationship" with God.

Lee liked to say that anything where man tries to reach or please God is "religion" and to be despised. Well, then you expect that there is nothing that we must do as Christians? Nothing that is required of you in a "doing way? if not, then I must presume that you constantly need grace to cover your lack of will to act according to what Christ said you were to be taught to obey. Obey, not just know about and appreciate. There is actually much that we must do. And if I call that religion, it does not suddenly become something to instead be avoided. If it was all about God coming to me — that I actually do nothing — then why is there anything that I should worry about? Why worry about living righteously. God will do it if that is his desire for me. Why worry about meeting with other Christians? Why would Paul write to so many different churches encouraging them to "do" differently in so many things, including rather secular-seeming things.

And why would Christ charge the disciples to teach others to "obey all that I have commanded"?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by OBW

You are correct, the Bible dos not define religion. It just used it in a positive way.

As for the trendy "Christianity is not a religion" mantra, that is a modern fantasy. If there is anything to learn about this thing we call "the faith," it is that nothing about it is really different after all these years. The culture in which Christians find themselves changes. The ability of the average Christian to actually read, and own a Bible has changed. But the truth in it has not. It has been understood as religion positively by its adherents for centuries. It is only the modern need for avoiding "doing" anything that has turned against the truth in the Bible. And the need of some to label what we do with a different word than the one that is also placed upon other religions like Islam, Buddhism, etc. But if you turn to the dictionary, religion remains a perfectly good word to describe the positive aspects of what we as Christians are engaged in, and do, related to our "relationship" with God.

Lee liked to say that anything where man tries to reach or please God is "religion" and to be despised. Well, then you expect that there is nothing that we must do as Christians? Nothing that is required of you in a "doing way? if not, then I must presume that you constantly need grace to cover your lack of will to act according to what Christ said you were to be taught to obey. Obey, not just know about and appreciate. There is actually much that we must do. And if I call that religion, it does not suddenly become something to instead be avoided. If it was all about God coming to me — that I actually do nothing — then why is there anything that I should worry about? Why worry about living righteously. God will do it if that is his desire for me. Why worry about meeting with other Christians? Why would Paul write to so many different churches encouraging them to "do" differently in so many things, including rather secular-seeming things.

And why would Christ charge the disciples to teach others to "obey all that I have commanded"?

I think it is meant to emphasize our faith over our works, as we are saved by faith alone and not works. But the faith which saves is not without works. It is meant to emphasize that anything we do comes from faith. It means works are a result of our faith and not the other way around.

I think the Recovery is a good example of that. I don't think anyone could argue, that with all the meetings, trainings, door knocking and gospel outreach in the Recovery we are standing for doing nothing. One will usually find themselves much busier than they would in a denomination - including in the Lords table meeting when everyone is expected to prophesy and serve in some way. People who sit on a chair silently are normally asked to do something.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I think the Recovery is a good example of that. I don't think anyone could argue, that with all the meetings, trainings, door knocking and gospel outreach in the Recovery we are standing for doing nothing. One will usually find themselves much busier than they would in a denomination . . . .

If that is the sum total of your works, then you have much to learn. Your "works" are all about meetings and specific efforts to preach the gospel. Without the "works" of the rest of your life, including common, run-of-the-mill things, and the generic command to "love your neighbor as yourself," your "religion" is not true. It is just "religious" in the truly negative sense. It is focused solely on the religious things that you do in the context of meetings and specifically evangelistic activities and excludes everything else. I think that you will find that Christ commanded much concerning your everyday life. So you don't have any "religion" there. And you despise it because you say those who do those things are poor and pathetic.

You mock other Christians for doing things other than those that you listed. Now there's some real evidence that you are one with all of the body of Christ; that you don't despise any of the members of that body.

Can't you just feel the sarcasm in that last sentence? It should burn. But you will declare that you are righteous to demean those things. Just like the ones that Jesus declared in Matt 5 to be last in the kingdom because they taught less that the whole law, even as expanded by Jesus just a few verses earlier.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Even Rick Warren says Christianity is not a religion.

Let us agree to disagree on the meaning of the word religion and religious activity, and try to agree on what we mean. I or we (i.e. Rick Warren and I ) , might say that religious activity is anything we do for God without using our spirit. What doth thou sayest?

Denying that Christianity is a religion is an instance of exceptionalism. To admit that Christianity is a religion is to recognize that it has characteristics in common with other religions. The exceptionalist sees their ideology as absolutely unique. This is the way fanatics roll.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by zeek

Denying that Christianity is a religion is an instance of exceptionalism. To admit that Christianity is a religion is to recognize that it has characteristics in common with other religions. The exceptionalist sees their ideology as absolutely unique. This is the way fanatics roll.

It is unique in that Christianity is about following the person of Christ, and not doing many things or trying to work our way into heaven. That's why people like Bill O'Reilly say it is more a philosophy not a religion.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It is unique in that Christianity is about following the person of Christ, and not doing many things or trying to work our way into heaven.

I agree that we cannot work our way into heaven. But I challenge you to actually follow Christ without doing anything, including a fair bit of work. Christ's sacrifice precedes everything else. But after that, if you aren't doing anything, you aren't much of a Christian.

Maybe one of those baby Christians that perpetually can only tolerate milk.

But not a mature Christian. Not arriving at a "full grown man."

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It is unique in that Christianity is about following the person of Christ, and not doing many things or trying to work our way into heaven. That's why people like Bill O'Reilly say it is more a philosophy not a religion.

Do you mean following Christ as opposed to focusing on Buddha or Krishna and receiving their grace? Are you seriously quoting O'Reilly the serial harasser as an authority on this subject?

[Koinonia]

Oh, I forgot to add, that we do all the above, while taking care of a family, and working in a highly demanding professional job such as a lawyer or medical doctor, on top of being an elder and listening to everyone's problems and complaints. And unlike a pastor or priest, we don't get paid for "counselling" and we spend much of our Sunday in church-related things.

Sorry it's not enough "religious work" for you (sarcasm again). I forgot that we must be out on the street feeding soup to homeless people to be truly doing what God asks, and all these things are not enough (sarcasm again).

Evangelical, is this a joke? . . . Sometime I wonder if your posts are some kind of satire, and we are missing it . . .

And for the umpteenth time--who is we? Who are you referring to? You sound so presumptuous. You are high-powered professional (lawyer or medical doctor), "on top of being an elder," and you have to listen to everyone's problems and complaints. Yet, heaven forbid you help homeless people. You already do enough for the Lord. What an attitude.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Evangelical, is this a joke? . . . Sometime I wonder if your posts are some kind of satire, and we are missing it . . .

And for the umpteenth time--who is we? Who are you referring to? You sound so presumptuous. You are high-powered professional (lawyer or medical doctor), "on top of being an elder," and you have to listen to everyone's problems and complaints. Yet, heaven forbid you help homeless people. You already do enough for the Lord. What an attitude.

You seem to think that while a person is faithful to their calling in such a way as I mentioned, you also expect them to be handing out soup.

Haven't you just presumed that because one is a lawyer or doctor or an elder they aren't helping people? I never used the word 'high powered", that is your strawman. Lawyers and doctors serve homeless and poor people too.

The apostle Paul said "Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel".

Sorry Paul, but Koinonia thinks you don't do enough for God.

If Paul were here you would criticize him for only preaching the gospel and not doing much else! You would say, "Paul, why are you wasting time making tents why aren't you out feeding soup to the homeless"? He might say to you "Christ did not send me to feed soup but to preach the gospel".

Who is "we"? WE is me and others. Who is "you"?