Bible Answer Man Converts to Eastern Orthodox!

[Evangelical]

Hank joining the Eastern Orthodox church says a lot about the state of degraded Christianity.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Hank joining the Eastern Orthodox church says a lot about the state of degraded Christianity.

And just what state is that? Hank's decision is only notable because he purports to be an evangelical Christian apologist. If he doesn't identify as an evangelical Christian then he has no place speaking on the behalf of evangelical Christians.

Personally, I don't care what group he associates with. We have a poster here who is Orthodox. It doesn't bother me one bit.

The issue with Hank is that he was lauded as an evangelical Christian who was willing to speak on behalf of the LC. Now it is questionable as to whether or not he ever sought to represent the views of evangelical Christians. If an Orthodox Christian or a Catholic were to affirm the views of the LC or WL, it really isn't saying anything. WL's strongest criticism was reserved for such groups. Do you not see the irony in this?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

And just what state is that? Hank's decision is only notable because he purports to be an evangelical Christian apologist. If he doesn't identify as an evangelical Christian then he has no place speaking on the behalf of evangelical Christians.

IIRC we had a forum poster who once worked with Hank Hanegraaff.

Anybody remember the thread?

[aron]

On p.30 of the "We were wrong" issue, CRI says the LC ecclesiology is intensely local, rejecting any ecclesiastical interference from outside the city, much less the country.

How can a supposed watcher of the flock be any more obtuse? In the LC tight operational control is a hallmark. In my region we tried to give a conference on one of WL's books but Anaheim said it was the wrong one. "Just re-speak the latest conference", we were told. And they sent out a couple of brothers to help us. Then we got dunned for their plane fare.

The CRI may feign stupidity but I'm sure the Communists are well aware of the outside control by the LC over their membership.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Hank joining the Eastern Orthodox church says a lot about the state of degraded Christianity.

Hanegraaff's joining the Eastern Orthodox Church says a lot about the state of the LC. Because given Hanegraaff's intimate involvement with the LC, his joining the Orthodoxy is essentially a rejection of it.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Hanegraaff's joining the Eastern Orthodox Church says a lot about the state of the LC. Because given Hanegraaff's intimate involvement with the LC, his joining the Orthodoxy is essentially a rejection of it.

I'm wondering if the Hankster is going to submit to the One Publication Edict of the Eastern Orthodox Church, as issued by their Pope (they call him Patriarch) I am quite certain that another "We Were Wrong" paper is forthcoming from CRI, except this time it we be a driveling, sniveling, kowtowing admission that they were so wrong about that bastion of "authentic Christian expression", the Eastern Orthodox Church!

No worries for the rank and file Local Churchers. They will hear NOTHING of this affair...unless of course they wonder over to our little popcorn stand here. One can only hope and pray.
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[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Hank joining the Eastern Orthodox church says a lot about the state of degraded Christianity.

Hank flip-flopping on LSM says a lot about the state of the degraded Recovery.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hank flip-flopping on LSM says a lot about the state of the degraded Recovery.

I think they could care less who Hank joins, as long as they have stacks of "We were wrong" essays piled in the back room. The LC doesn't really care who wrote it, as long as they have an "orthodox evangelical" membership card.

The LC has a dilemma with the rest of the flock, which impinges on their recruiting efforts, and they solve it with the same "box-shuffling" compartmentalised reality as with the issue of women. They have one box that says, "Watchman Nee was taught by women" and another that says "We as followers of Watchman Nee don't allow women to teach." The trick is, just don't open both boxes at the same time.

Likewise, they can say, "Joe Smith of XYZ Seminary is part of the Great Abomination" and, "Joe Smith of XYZ Seminary accepts us as card-carrying, legitimate evangelical Christian expression." Just don't say both statements together, as that might produce some cognitive dissonance.

But you can see why they hold both positions: each is helpful to recruiting. Just don't pay attention to the contradiction.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

I think they could care less who Hank joins, as long as they have stacks of "We were wrong" essays piled in the back room. The LC doesn't really care who wrote it, as long as they have an "orthodox evangelical" membership card.

I think the issue the LCM is going to have to deal with sometime down the road is the fact that Hank has stated that he joined the EOC as a result of his experiences in China. So while I think it's true that they don't necessarily care who he associates with, he has now made the claim that his interaction with the LC led him to non-LC group. Certainly, the blendeds couldn't be too happy about that, especially since I recall one of them stating that Hank was starting to "see God's economy."

Originally Posted by aron

Likewise, they can say, "Joe Smith of XYZ Seminary is part of the Great Abomination" and, "Joe Smith of XYZ Seminary accepts us as card-carrying, legitimate evangelical Christian expression." Just don't say both statements together, as that might produce some cognitive dissonance.

But you can see why they hold both positions: each is helpful to recruiting. Just don't pay attention to the contradiction.

I don't recall if WL ever made specific mention of the EOC, but I have no doubt he would have put it in the same category as the RCC. Seemingly, Hank is unaware or chooses to ignore some of WL's harsh statements made towards groups like what he is now a part of. Why would Hank choose to be supportive of someone who viscously attacked such Christian groups? That is why I don't think Hank is someone to be taken seriously.

Taking a step back, I think a lot of the issue arises from how the blendeds have attempted to defend WL's teaching of deification. Why do they so adamantly defend his teaching? It's mainly for the simple reason of it being something that WL taught. But this is exactly what puts them in the awkward position of having to point to groups like the EOC and RCC in order to show 'precedent' for what WL taught (even though I'm sure there is a vast difference between the EO teaching of Theosis and what WL taught).

Consider Hank though, his full-time job is apologetics. Obviously, people like him are not the type who are likely to be attracted to home-grown theology. Yet whatever happened through his interaction with the LCM was enough to have a significant effect on his views. So I think this created a dilemma for him. He didn't want to join the LCM like his colleague Paul Young did. Rather, he probably wanted something more 'structured', and thus for whatever reason moved in the direction of the EOC.

What is so striking is that he so easily viewed the EOC as a viable and natural alternative to the LCM. I don't think that would be the choice for most who leave the LCM, but we can't forget that Hank is apparently completely sold on WL's teaching of deification. So perhaps he wanted a group that embraces a similar teaching, but is interested in supporting and talking about the teaching instead of telling people not to "get in their mind about it." In the LC, people are taught to embrace various teachings for the sole reason of it being something that WL taught. They are not given an actual reason as to why the teaching would be helpful or worth discussing.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Consider Hank though, his full-time job is apologetic. Obviously, people like him are not the type who are likely to be attracted to home-grown theology. Yet whatever happened through his interaction with the LCM was enough to have a significant effect on his views. So I think this created a dilemma for him. He didn't want to join the LCM like his colleague Paul Young did. Rather, he probably wanted something more 'structured', and thus for whatever reason moved in the direction of the EOC.

Two things characterize the LSM LC: ignorance and fervor. And that seems to be amplified on both counts in China. Probably that did have an effect on him.

Maybe the EOC gave him an opportunity to be more fervent, without the ignorance.

When I say ignorance I mean this: the RCC split off from the EOC and largely lost the Fathers. Martin Luther broke off from the RCC and got separated further still from the historical church. So the Calvinist/Lutheran "me and my Bible" became a cover for "me and my concepts, with the Bible in an occasional supporting role". Witness Lee is my star example -- concepts galore. We should give it a name: "The Church of Witness Lee's Home-made Theology". Let people know what is really inside.

But Hank liked the enthusiasm. So he looked for something to get enthusiastic about.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

But Hank liked the enthusiasm. So he looked for something to get enthusiastic about.

I toured a Greek Orthodox Church a couple years back. It was a great educational experience for someone like me who might be otherwise ignorant to what such groups believe and practice.

What I discovered is that they are well aware of the criticism that gets directed at them for things like the usage of icons or the veneration of Mary. And they are quite willing to explain their views and answer questions. To say they are an enthusiastic bunch would be an understatement.

The LCM is also a group full of enthusiasm. But they feel that they are entitled to exist in a realm free of being questioned or having to explain their views. As such, when the enthusiasm is always accompanied by an evasiveness to questions, it acts as a people deterrent.

So I don't really blame Hank for choosing the EOC over the LC. Decisions like that are basically inevitable as long as the LC chooses to act the way it does.

[Evangelical]

People here may or may not realise that joining the EOC is a big commitment. It's not like choosing to visit a different church every Sunday. There is a process of conversion. It's almost like joining a different religion entirely.

Conversion to the Orthodox Church from another Christian denomination, or from a non-Christian Faith or from a background of no religious practice is a very serious matter both for the Orthodox Church and for the person seeking to convert to Orthodoxy. It is, essentially, a lifetime mutual commitment.
https://www.greekorthodox.org.au/?page_id=3875

So when you say he has "rejected the LC", he has also rejected whatever Christian/evangelical/open/free group you belong to as well.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Maybe the EOC gave him an opportunity to be more fervent, without the ignorance.

When I say ignorance I mean this: the RCC split off from the EOC and largely lost the Fathers. Martin Luther broke off from the RCC and got separated further still from the historical church. So the Calvinist/Lutheran "me and my Bible" became a cover for "me and my concepts ...

I'm not understanding this. It seems like you are lamenting some lost connection to the primitive church. Having studied the history of the Papal church, I can see little that resembled the N.T. Wycliffe, Hus, Luther, and others nobly tried to reform the organized church, but theologically went back to the scriptures as their starting point. By their time, Rome had lost all connection with it, except for the monk scribes transcribing the Latin.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Hank joining the Eastern Orthodox church says a lot about the state of degraded Christianity.

You might as well have said that the hail storm we experienced early Tuesday morning says a lot about the state of the Trump administration.

The fact is that there have been changes of affiliation of significant persons over time and they do not mean anything other than a perception of something that cannot simply be boiled down to anything as simplistic as "degraded Christianity." But if you think that is a reason to change to the EOC, then why aren't you moving? I have enough experience with the LRC to say with confidence that there is much degradation there. I would say that this is evidence that it is simply part of Christianity. But I do not think that Christianity is really so degraded as the LRC thinks.

In fact, significantly less. Or more truly, not really much degraded. It is still the church and to speak in such a negative way about it says more about the one speaking than it does about the church.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

It is still the church and to speak in such a negative way about it says more about the one speaking than it does about the church.

I'd looked at the recent forum thread on Spurgeon putting a curse on the denominations. Specifically he said "a plague on denominationalism". But apparently we have to wait a week to comment so I'l just post here.

First off, the "denominations" didn't exist for the first 1,500 years of Christianity. There were no Lutherans before Luther. So did Luther err? Was "justification by faith" a rebellion against God-established order. Hardly, we'd say. So why bash his followers for taking a name? "We're the church who follows Luther's teachings on justification, but we don't have a name"? Would that help?

No, I think the person putting a plague on denominations just wants to bash his fellows, who conveniently provide an easy target. But they are the church of Jesus. So why not receive them as God has done, in Christ Jesus? Why put a plague upon them? Does this really please the Father? I personally don't think so.

And for all its faults, which perhaps are many, the Eastern Orthodox stands as a continuous testimony of Jesus Christ. How many cults has the EO spawned? Not many, that I can think of. Can the church that followed Luther, Spurgeon included, make such a claim?

And the Abbyssinean (Ethiopian) Orthodox Church, and the Armenian Orthodox Church and many others who trace their spiritual lineage to the first centuries. . . easy enough to judge them. But why judge the church of Jesus?

No, we are called to bless, to bless and not to curse.

On a mostly un-related note, the analysis of the LSM LC by the CRI was abysmal; it gives "shallow" a new standard... but if Hank Hanegraaff aka the Bible Answer Man wants to join the Eastern Orthodox as part of his spiritual journey why not. I don't see the two issues as related. So let's bless his journey.

But his writing is poor. (That is not a curse but a simple assessment.) He & Gretchen Passantino lack critical thinking skills. Perhaps they've been fuddled by funding issues. . . if you look at his lifestyle (lavish) and his writing (marginal to poor), well what can I say?

Too much of the talk is on the church and not Christ, and too much of what we call "Christ" is unrelated to scripture's portrayal. Look at the LSM LC "Christ" - doesn't care for the poor, doesn't care for basics of human rightness or righteousness ("we don't care about right and wrong"), doesn't care for one's neighbors but "the church", spends considerable time bashing "Christianity", hides its cultural lenses as if they were "transformed" away magically, doesn't respect scripture (calling it "fallen human concepts"), is proud, won't learn from anyone or humble itself before its fellows.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

I'd looked at the recent forum thread on Spurgeon putting a curse on the denominations. Specifically he said "a plague on denominationalism". But apparently we have to wait a week to comment so I'l just post here.

First off, the "denominations" didn't exist for the first 1,500 years of Christianity. There were no Lutherans before Luther. So did Luther err? Was "justification by faith" a rebellion against God-established order. Hardly, we'd say. So why bash his followers for taking a name? "We're the church who follows Luther's teachings on justification, but we don't have a name"? Would that help?

This statement is a little misleading, eh?

Church history tells us of believers all over the civilized world assembling together for worship and fellowship outside of the RCC.

Eg the Waldensians were named (at least by historians) after Peter Waldo.