"Globalization of Chinese Christianity: A Study of Watchman Nee and..."

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

And look at the Eastern Lightning et al on the mainland PRC. The various Shouter splinter sects: The apocalyptic "final apostle to end the age" motif continues to cycle through the flock like a cyclone of destruction, in various iterations.

They may say the age of giants is over, but they keep bringing it back. It's irresistible. Maybe we need to amend MOTA to FATETA.

Aron,

These aberrant groups are not affiliated with the Lord's Recovery, just as Christian Identity does not represent Fundamental Christianity.

Drake

[UntoHim]

"Christian Identity" did not spring from the teachings and practices established in "Fundamental Christianity". But of course Drake is very aware of this, but he, like the current leadership in the Local Church of Witness Lee, are desperately trying to disown this unruly religious offspring.

Of course those of us who where actually there in the LC movement back in the 70s know exactly where all the aberrations and extremes of the Shouters came from - they came straight from the mouth of Witness Lee himself. No doubt, some of these folks in China have jumped off the deep end, but the genesis and catalyst for the crazy and heretical abnormalities have their roots in the religion invented by Lee himself.
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[Drake]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

"Christian Identity" did not spring from the teachings and practices established in "Fundamental Christianity". But of course Drake is very aware of this, but he, like the current leadership in the Local Church of Witness Lee, are desperately trying to disown this unruly religious offspring.

Of course those of us who where actually there in the LC movement back in the 70s know exactly where all the aberrations and extremes of the Shouters came from - they came straight from the mouth of Witness Lee himself. No doubt, some of these folks in China have jumped off the deep end, but the genesis and catalyst for the crazy and heretical abnormalities have their roots in the religion invented by Lee himself.
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Untohim,

Why do you continue to pile on with a false narrative about this knowing full well that the PRC uses it to persecute, imprison, and martyr faithful believers in China?

Seriously, has your despising of Witness Lee and the Lord's Recovery consumed you to the extent that you would lend aid and comfort to the narrative created by cruel and murdering atheists?

I suggest you and others think and rethink what you are doing here, the propoganda you are collaborating with, and the potential impact you may be having on dear Christians who are suffering under it.

Then again, it is easy to sit in American suburbia carelessly spreading PRC atheistic propoganda from your computer while never spending a minute huddled in a little room in China with precious believers who if overheard singing, praying, and worshipping the Lord could be persecuted without a moments notice.

So please do not tell us how informed you are about this matter. Whatever "suffering"you endured 40 years ago cannot be compared to what has been happening to faithful believers in China.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shouters

No one will be able stand before the Lord and claim ignorance for having stumbled these little ones.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Untohim,

Why do you continue to pile on with a false narrative about this knowing full well that the PRC uses it to persecute, imprison, and martyr faithful believers in China?

Seriously, has your despising of Witness Lee and the Lord's Recovery consumed you to the extent that you would lend aid and comfort to the narrative created by cruel and murdering atheists?

I suggest you and others think and rethink what you are doing here, the propoganda you are collaborating with, and the potential impact you may be having on dear Christians who are suffering under it.

Then again, it is easy to sit in American suburbia carelessly spreading PRC atheistic propoganda from your computer while never spending a minute huddled in a little room in China with precious believers who if overheard singing, praying, and worshipping the Lord could be persecuted without a moments notice.

So please do not tell us how informed you are about this matter. Whatever "suffering"you endured 40 years ago cannot be compared to what has been happening to faithful believers in China.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shouters

No one will be able stand before the Lord and claim ignorance for having stumbled these little ones.

Drake

Obviously brother UntoHim was not speaking of "precious believers huddled in a little room in China, who if overheard singing, praying, and worshipping the Lord could be persecuted without a moments notice."

But do remember dear brother Drake, it was Witness Lee himself who condemned all the precious gatherings such as these (go read that pathetic Genesis Life Study #54 or so, concerning Lot) as "free groups," the illegitimate and incestuous children of Lot.

So why don't you slowly climb down off your high horse and own up to your own master's pathetic teachings about the many children of God around the globe gathering in His name?

[aron]

Drake,

I read the Wikipedia article you linked. It focuses on an incident in 1983. "There is reason to doubt connection".

What about the last 34 years? What about Witness Lee, from the podium, claiming affiliation of 20 million Shouters in the mid-'90s?

Speaking of abandoning the dear, precious saints, what about the guy caught with 30,000 LSM Bibles, whom was promptly disavowed of any connection, who got saved from jail by the "atheist" U.S. Government? LSM didn't know anything about how this guy got 30,000 of their Bibles.

LSM seems to be willfully ignorant. Forgive us if we point out glaring connections between these groups. Sorry about having to state the apparently obvious. I was a recruiter once, for the LSM, and the "we are just Christians" tactics, the divide-and-conquer, the isolation, the paranoia, the persecution complex, the "obey without question", the "Big Brother is always right", the "everybody but us is Great Harlot Satanic Babylon Dragon" refrains, the simplistic slogans repeated ad nauseum as if repetition creates reality, the "don't ask any questions" themes, the constant negativity about everyone else and "don't be negative" about anything in the group, are all just too similar to pretend to ignore.

But other than that, yes, perhaps there's no connection what so ever.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

But do remember dear brother Drake, it was Witness Lee himself who condemned all the precious gatherings such as these (go read that pathetic Genesis Life Study #54 or so, concerning Lot) as "free groups," the illegitimate and incestuous children of Lot.

So sad to express that attitude knowing in the early 60's Witness Lee would frequently visit a free group in Las Vegas where my dad was meeting at the time. Not only that, a brother from this free group would drive Witness Lee to Twin Falls, ID where another free group was receiving his ministering.

[UntoHim]

Actually Drake, I would be burying my head in the sand if I engaged you in your argument from ignorance fallacy. Godless, evil men have been creating false narratives against God's people since the beginning, and our Lord even said as much. They hated him and they will hate those who follow Him - always have, always will, and nothing that is posted on LocalChurchdiscussions is going to change this fact. You guys may have been able to pull the wool over the eyes of an extremely compromised and decidedly ignorant (talk about head in the sand) Hank Hanegraaff et al, but you see, I DO know, and I DO care, and that's what LocalChurchDiscussions is all about.

No piano hey? No terrible disease? Cool, I appreciate that.
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[Drake]

"...nothing that is posted on LocalChurchdiscussions is going to change this fact."

Under the circumstances, I think it matters in this case, Untohim.

Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Terry

So sad to express that attitude knowing in the early 60's Witness Lee would frequently visit a free group in Las Vegas where my dad was meeting at the time. Not only that, a brother from this free group would drive Witness Lee to Twin Falls, ID where another free group was receiving his ministering.

WL would of course visit "free groups", i.e. un-named and unaffiliated sects. But he was grooming them for takeover. Nobody stayed free for too long, once WL came to town.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

WL would of course visit "free groups", i.e. un-named and unaffiliated sects. But he was grooming them for takeover. Nobody stayed free for too long, once WL came to town.

Groups that stayed free groups was due to "not seeing the vision" and perhaps that's when the "illegitimate and incestuous" characterization came in.

[UntoHim]

My friend Drake, you all all washed up with your facts. There is no evidence - NONE - NADA - ZILTCH - that anything that is posted on LocalChurchDiscussions is used by the communist to persecute genuine Christians in Mainland China. There is plenty of evidence, however, that many of the aberrant and heretical teachings and practices of groups like the Shouters come directly from the teachings and practices established by Witness Lee himself. In fact, Lee admitted as much when he was alive and apparently thought the Shouters were something positive.

And while I'm glad that you've finally grown a conscience, I'd like to know where you and your newfound sanctimonious conscience were when sisters were taken advantage of sexually by Witness Lee's son WITH HIS FULL KNOWLEDGE, and the knowledge of MANY LC/LSM leaders?....I suspect you were there within the confines of a meeting hall somewhere in American suburbia doing some shouting yourself, and uplifting the name and ministry of the very same man.

Please do not tell us how "this is not the Lord's Recovery I'm familiar with". This is an insult, and let me remind you that you too will stand before the Lord regarding the stumbling of these little sisters and their families. You have done nothing but express support and approval of the men who enabled Witness Lee and his sons to stumble these little ones instead of calling them to repentance before God and his people.

By the way I have NEVER ONCE said that I "suffered". NOT ONE TIME. You confuse speaking the truth in love with the old Local Church "bitter ex member" garbage. What's next? Are you going to warn me that a piano in going to fall on me, or that I'm gong to contract some terrible disease? I'm not bitter now and never have been. I have nothing to be bitter about. I do have some grave concerns for the dear brothers and sisters who genuinely suffered in the Local Church of Witness Lee. Some have suffered some terrible psychological and spiritual damage. Many at the hands of the very men who claim to be "brother Lee's continuation". These men have NO BUSINESS leading an entire Christian organization or movement, and your blind approval and promotion of them is nothing less than despicable.
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[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

What about the last 34 years? What about Witness Lee, from the podium, claiming affiliation of 20 million Shouters in the mid-'90s?

Aron,

The article explained the transmutation of the term "shouters".

Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

There is no evidence - NONE - NADA - ZILTCH - that anything that is posted on LocalChurchDiscussions is used by the communist to persecute genuine Christians in Mainland China.

Untohim,

I don't think burying one's head in the sand is an excuse either.

2,000,000 internet police in China (larger then the Red Army) creating reports, tamping down criticism, targeting banned groups (a.k.a. "Shouters" and "shouters") , and generating propaganda is not enough for you to believe that statements made on this forum are not used by them to justify their own falsehoods?

Granted, there are no pictures of arrested christians in China with a note on the reeducation labor camp gate that says "Shouters inside courtesy of localchurchdiscussions.com". Why would you wait for evidence like that anyway?

What I am saying is that it is reckless to feed that false narrative that the atheists have created and that they use to persecute precious brothers and sisters in China. And if you had some sense of the danger facing them I would hope that you would set aside your hatred for their sake.

It appears either you don't know, don't want to know, don't care, and therefore you won't.

By the way I have NEVER ONCE said that a piano will fall on your head or that you will contract some terrible disease. NOT ONE TIME.

Drake