"Globalization of Chinese Christianity: A Study of Watchman Nee and..."

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I never heard it from Nee, but heard it from Lee and the Blendeds on many occasions.

If Nee said it originally, it was based on what? His subjective assessment of the sweep of Christian history? And why was his subjective assessment (i.e. opinion) superior to mine or yours? How is Nee's opinion the equivalent of truth?

And was this statement made by Nee before he "recovered" the so-called Jerusalem Principle, and began promulgating "know who is ahead of you and get in line", which centralizing ideas seem to lead straight to Lee and the Blendeds' "one apostle per age" theorem?

Or did the Lee/Blended theorem deviate? The whole thing seems so horribly subjective, just like Nee was. He discovered "truths" to meet this week's agenda. Doesn't matter if they contradicted last weeks truths. This was carried forward to this day by his LSM/Arvore Da Vida/GLA disciples.

No, thanks. I'll stick to the printed Bible. At least it stays the same.

[Evangelical]

Quotes from WN:

...In the church there have been many spiritual giants who have brought about many spiritual things. ... Saints like Martin Luther, Madame Guyon, John Nelson Darby, Evan Roberts, and Mrs. Penn-Lewis all left us with some spiritual wealth. .... Yet today even if we should succeed in being a Martin Luther, a Madame Guyon, a Darby, a Roberts, or a Mrs. Penn-Lewis, we would still be a failure because we would not have seen the central point-the flow of the Spirit. (The Collected Works of Watchman Nee, vol. 55)

...I believe that the age of giants is over in the church life. Perhaps in the next generation, the so-called "giants" that we have now will disappear altogether. Today is the end time for giants. ... (The Collected Works of Watchman Nee, vol. 6)

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

...I believe that the age of giants is over in the church life. Perhaps in the next generation, the so-called "giants" that we have now will disappear altogether. Today is the end time for giants. ... (The Collected Works of Watchman Nee, vol. 6)

It certainly seems more benign the way WN puts it, prefaced with "I believe". . .

But I believe that the age of the giants ended in the flood in the book of Genesis, and if WN had a little more circumspection he'd never have applied such a questionable metaphor.

And WL was less circumspect still, in his "It is the age of the Spirit" maxim; when it went forth into the Shouter assemblies it didn't carry any cautionary preface. I don't know if you ever saw some of the videos smuggled out of China 20 years ago? They'd scream WL's slogans, over and over. That's partly why I'd call it an evil mind control cult. Any freedom to exercise your God-given mind was gone. Just shout the slogan of the day, over and over and over again. On the mainland you could really see the WL indoctrination programme for what it was.

The Maximum Brother's subjective whim became objective reality in the collective - this can be seen by the fact that when they quoted WN from the podium after WL's passing, it had a completely new meaning. Now, "The age of spiritual giants is over" meant that WL alone had stood astride the landscape. Now, they said, it was the age of us small potatoes. And the Bible was never even referenced.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Quotes from WN:

...In the church there have been many spiritual giants who have brought about many spiritual things. ... Saints like Martin Luther, Madame Guyon, John Nelson Darby, Evan Roberts, and Mrs. Penn-Lewis all left us with some spiritual wealth. .... Yet today even if we should succeed in being a Martin Luther, a Madame Guyon, a Darby, a Roberts, or a Mrs. Penn-Lewis, we would still be a failure because we would not have seen the central point-the flow of the Spirit. (The Collected Works of Watchman Nee, vol. 55)

...I believe that the age of giants is over in the church life. Perhaps in the next generation, the so-called "giants" that we have now will disappear altogether. Today is the end time for giants. ... (The Collected Works of Watchman Nee, vol. 6)

Quite duplicitous coming from the man who would later say that you would always know who was the most spiritual person in the room and defer to him.

Nee was a master of understatement. He "suggested" and "believed a lot, making it sound less extreme. But if you understood how strongly he believed it, you would realize that his was a belief in the top-f-the-heap position of one person — himself. Just like Lee who was to come later in Taiwan and America, he spoke of himself indirectly but the impact and intent of his words was very direct. He was the MOTA that preceded Lee.

And I expect that one or more of the blendeds will eventually latch onto this ruse and become the current and final MOTA. It worked for Nee when he said it was already over. Then for Lee who was after Nee.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

And I expect that one or more of the blendeds will eventually latch onto this ruse and become the current and final MOTA. It worked for Nee when he said it was already over. Then for Lee who was after Nee.

And look at the Eastern Lightning et al on the mainland PRC. The various Shouter splinter sects: The apocalyptic "final apostle to end the age" motif continues to cycle through the flock like a cyclone of destruction, in various iterations.

They may say the age of giants is over, but they keep bringing it back. It's irresistible. Maybe we need to amend MOTA to FATETA.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

And look at the Eastern Lightning et al on the mainland PRC. The various Shouter splinter sects: The apocalyptic "final apostle to end the age" motif continues to cycle through the flock like a cyclone of destruction, in various iterations.

They may say the age of giants is over, but they keep bringing it back. It's irresistible. Maybe we need to amend MOTA to FATETA.

Aron,

These aberrant groups are not affiliated with the Lord's Recovery, just as Christian Identity does not represent Fundamental Christianity.

Drake

[UntoHim]

"Christian Identity" did not spring from the teachings and practices established in "Fundamental Christianity". But of course Drake is very aware of this, but he, like the current leadership in the Local Church of Witness Lee, are desperately trying to disown this unruly religious offspring.

Of course those of us who where actually there in the LC movement back in the 70s know exactly where all the aberrations and extremes of the Shouters came from - they came straight from the mouth of Witness Lee himself. No doubt, some of these folks in China have jumped off the deep end, but the genesis and catalyst for the crazy and heretical abnormalities have their roots in the religion invented by Lee himself.
-

[Drake]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

"Christian Identity" did not spring from the teachings and practices established in "Fundamental Christianity". But of course Drake is very aware of this, but he, like the current leadership in the Local Church of Witness Lee, are desperately trying to disown this unruly religious offspring.

Of course those of us who where actually there in the LC movement back in the 70s know exactly where all the aberrations and extremes of the Shouters came from - they came straight from the mouth of Witness Lee himself. No doubt, some of these folks in China have jumped off the deep end, but the genesis and catalyst for the crazy and heretical abnormalities have their roots in the religion invented by Lee himself.
-

Untohim,

Why do you continue to pile on with a false narrative about this knowing full well that the PRC uses it to persecute, imprison, and martyr faithful believers in China?

Seriously, has your despising of Witness Lee and the Lord's Recovery consumed you to the extent that you would lend aid and comfort to the narrative created by cruel and murdering atheists?

I suggest you and others think and rethink what you are doing here, the propoganda you are collaborating with, and the potential impact you may be having on dear Christians who are suffering under it.

Then again, it is easy to sit in American suburbia carelessly spreading PRC atheistic propoganda from your computer while never spending a minute huddled in a little room in China with precious believers who if overheard singing, praying, and worshipping the Lord could be persecuted without a moments notice.

So please do not tell us how informed you are about this matter. Whatever "suffering"you endured 40 years ago cannot be compared to what has been happening to faithful believers in China.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shouters

No one will be able stand before the Lord and claim ignorance for having stumbled these little ones.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

And look at the Eastern Lightning et al on the mainland PRC. The various Shouter splinter sects: The apocalyptic "final apostle to end the age" motif continues to cycle through the flock like a cyclone of destruction, in various iterations.

They may say the age of giants is over, but they keep bringing it back. It's irresistible. Maybe we need to amend MOTA to FATETA.

FATETA had long been the LC battle cry.

It's amazing how easily MOTA becomes FATETA, which then slithers into False Christs. Remember the warnings of Jesus Himself:

Take heed that no one deceives you. "For many shall come claiming to represent Me, saying that I am the Christ, yet shall deceive many" (Mt. 24. 4-5)

For false Christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

Most troubling to me was how Lee initiated aberrant teachings about "God became man to make man god" in order to redirect the LC's in the aftermath of those pathetic scandals at LSM circling his degenerate son Philip Lee. Now we see the fruit of such action -- Chinese cults shouting Lee's name as if he were god.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

Quite duplicitous coming from the man who would later say that you would always know who was the most spiritual person in the room and defer to him.

Nee was a master of understatement. He "suggested" and "believed a lot, making it sound less extreme. But if you understood how strongly he believed it, you would realize that his was a belief in the top-f-the-heap position of one person — himself. Just like Lee who was to come later in Taiwan and America, he spoke of himself indirectly but the impact and intent of his words was very direct. He was the MOTA that preceded Lee.

And I expect that one or more of the blendeds will eventually latch onto this ruse and become the current and final MOTA. It worked for Nee when he said it was already over. Then for Lee who was after Nee.

MOTA, FATETA AND THE GROUND

I think that the "local ground" was merely a setup for what followed. Like with the Brethren before them, the indigenous churches of China fell prey to Nee's strong-arm tactics. The Jerusalem Principle and "get in line" and "know who is ahead of you"and "handing over" were all machineries of centralization and control.

It probably wasn't planned that way, though. The contradictions of the various Protestant sects, the teachings of the Brethren, and the yearning for the Chinese to be free from foriegn domination all opened the doors for the mass exodus. And Nee's cultural lens dictated what the "normal Christian church" should look like: in his eyes, one with strong central control.

Thus the Little Flock/LC MOTA concept came forth, heightened with eschatological fervor into the FATETA, the final apostle to end the age. So a remark made in passing by Nee, that the age of spiritual giants was over, was spoken to us upon Lee's passing as if an age in human history had now turned.

But I wanted to make three remarks on this. First that the Lord Jesus did say that there were spiritual giants. There were one- and ten-talented persons. Paul echoed this by saying some stars shine more brightly. Some have degrees of glory. But Jesus made it clear that the glory was to come, not to be seized in this age. If you have ambition, be nothing. Let the Master raise you up. Over and over Jesus hammered this theme. Nobody knows whether Billy Graham, for example, is an extremely loud one-talented brother or a ten-talented one. We just don't know. Don't create distinctions of persons. And I think Billy Graham would probably agree. Place is given by God, not by human arrangement.

Second, Paul said that "God gave some as apostles, some as prophets" etc speaks to what was there. The 12 disciples were witnesses. That was their job. Paul came alongside, but nowhere did Paul or anyone else assume primacy. The apostles had a special role, because they were the ones who saw Jesus, day after day. Thus their testimony was crucial. If you wanted to be a Jesus-follower, you had to hang out with them. There was no Bible. There were no written gospels. So you had to be a disciple of a disciple, to follow Jesus. Paul was the exception, getting his revelation from the Lord, but here the exception proves the rule. And Paul never said his revelation should rule anyone else's experience. If he'd even hinted it, it would be antithetical to Jesus' teachings.

His organizational schemas (appointing elders, exhortations to obey those watching over you) were merely assenting to what was there. People clot together and some take the lead. Paul knew that. But nowhere did his work anticipate overthrowing Jesus' dictum to take the last place. Of course the danger is always there - the disciples showed it, in angling for "first place" and so forth. But Jesus shut it down. Never was it to be revived, by Paul or anyone else.

Third, neither did any of the other 12 kow-tow to Paul as having the "ministry of the age". They merely accepted him. But did John subject himself to Paul? Not for one minute. Nor should he. Only in the cultural lens of Nee was this a requirement. But this cultural lens required distortion of the scriptural record.

And that lens, that predeliction, led us to the "one trumpet" and the "Philip Lee is the office" and the FATETA, spoken to us as Lee departed. "It is now the age of small potatoes" is what I heard. And not one single Bible verse was given to support the new age. It was the tradition of men, and we were now caught in the net. No pretense of biblical support was even tried.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by aron

. . . the FATETA, the final apostle to end the age.

At some level, there was a FATETA . . . . almost 2,000 years ago.

Not positive who it was, although some would make a case for John.

While I understand the generic meaning of apostle as "sent one," it was much more than that in the scripture. It wasn't just any sent one. It was certain sent ones. Might have been more than just the 11, Paul and a couple of others. But it wasn't every believer who got the "calling" to go somewhere else.

[aron]

Bc

Originally Posted by OBW

At some level, there was a FATETA . . . . almost 2,000 years ago.

Not positive who it was, although some would make a case for John.

While I understand the generic meaning of apostle as "sent one," it was much more than that in the scripture. It wasn't just any sent one. It was certain sent ones. Might have been more than just the 11, Paul and a couple of others. But it wasn't every believer who got the "calling" to go somewhere else.

The apostles saw the Lord. Their position was unique. Paul affirms this in writing, claiming that he was one born out of time. 1 Cor 15:8

Anyone who anoints themselves today is suspect. When the only work involved is publishing and book sales, doubly so.

And those who dub themselves age-turners are cranks, or deluded by them. Jesus is the age turner. Stop assuming positions. Love God and your neighbour. Pursue peace. Feed the lambs. Stop with the hysterical pronouncements. Ignorance and fervour won't do it. Sorry.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

At some level, there was a FATETA . . . . almost 2,000 years ago.

Not positive who it was, although some would make a case for John.

While I understand the generic meaning of apostle as "sent one," it was much more than that in the scripture. It wasn't just any sent one. It was certain sent ones. Might have been more than just the 11, Paul and a couple of others. But it wasn't every believer who got the "calling" to go somewhere else.

I agree with this.

For Witness Lee to parse the etymology and claim all believers can be "sent ones going door-knocking" just disrespects the twelve initially commissioned by the Lord. If this were not so, then their names would not be written on the foundations of the walls of the city, New Jerusalem. (Rev 21.14)