Mere Christianity or Degraded Christianity?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Your idea that insisting on unity makes it divisive does not make sense.

But it does make sense. Why not rather be defrauded than seek your version of justice? Because your version is not God's. Your mind is not His, nor your heart. Only God is good.

By contrast, we see outward, enforced conformity, based on dissatisfaction, weakness and fear. "Unless everyone does exactly what I want, I'll be unhappy." Friend, you are unhappy now and you always will be, at that rate.

The unity of Babel is enforced. Everyone must bow to the same image.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

But it does make sense. Why not rather be defrauded than seek your version of justice? Because your version is not God's. Your mind is not His, nor your heart. Only God is good.

By contrast, we see outward, enforced conformity, based on dissatisfaction, weakness and fear. "Unless everyone does exactly what I want, I'll be unhappy." Friend, you are unhappy now and you always will be, at that rate.

The unity of Babel is enforced. Everyone must bow to the same image.

Christianity is already divided, and has been for some time now. By insisting on unity we cannot make the division worse. It seems you are more interested in maintaining the status quo of "unity in division" than striving for perfection. The unity you speak of is a unity in division. It is saying "we are all divided, we are all the same, so we are in unity". It is a unity of compromise and mediocrity. It is a kind of false unity which is not unity at all. The dictionary definition of unity is "the state of being one; oneness". Today Christianity is not in a state of oneness but of manyness.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Christianity is already divided, and has been for some time now. By insisting on unity we cannot make the division worse. It seems you are more interested in maintaining the status quo of "unity in division" than striving for perfection. The unity you speak of is a unity in division. It is saying "we are all divided, we are all the same, so we are in unity". It is a unity of compromise and mediocrity. It is a kind of false unity which is not unity at all. The dictionary definition of unity is "the state of being one; oneness". Today Christianity is not in a state of oneness but of manyness.

The Pharisees strove for perfection, too. We know what Jesus thought of them.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Igzy

The Pharisees strove for perfection, too. We know what Jesus thought of them.

Not because they sought perfection, but because they rejected Christ. In the Recovery Christ is mentioned and appreciated 100 times more than in the denominations.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Not because they sought perfection, but because they rejected Christ. In the Recovery Christ is mentioned and appreciated 100 times more than in the denominations.

The Pharisees were hypocrites long before Christ came along. Your second statement deserves no reply. It's an insult to this board and the people outside the LCM who love the Lord.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Igzy

The Pharisees were hypocrites long before Christ came along. Your second statement deserves no reply. It's an insult to this board and the people outside the LCM who love the Lord.

It's a fact, in a typical denomination I could count the number of times Christ is mentioned on my right hand. Soon, the majority of Christians will be "loving the Lord" by decorating a tree and singing Jingle Bells.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It's a fact, in a typical denomination I could count the number of times Christ is mentioned on my right hand. Soon, the majority of Christians will be "loving the Lord" by decorating a tree and singing Jingle Bells.

The Christ mentioned so often in the LC is a made-up concoction from the Nee & Lee fantasy factory. One who despises the poor, ignores the weak, goes after the 'good building material', who has no good works but only rhetoric. A Christ who is needy, manipulative, controlling, who elevates some members over others - 'spiritual giants', anyone? - and generally behaves very much like the Gentiles do, which should be no surprise because he is their product.

[Cal]

Evangelical, You should have called yourself Javert. It would have been more fitting.

[Koinonia]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It's a fact, in a typical denomination I could count the number of times Christ is mentioned on my right hand. Soon, the majority of Christians will be "loving the Lord" by decorating a tree and singing Jingle Bells.

"For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.” - 1 Samuel 16:7

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Today Christianity is not in a state of oneness but of manyness.

I am not talking about the manyness of today's Christianity. I am talking about the sound of many waters. It's a beautiful sound. You can hear it anywhere. Even occasionally in Christianity.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

The unity you speak of is a unity in division.

Of course I offer my opinion and nothing more. But the unity of which I speak is the unity of the Son and the Father. "Even as we are one, they shall be one" The way to get to that unity is not to look at our disunity but to look at their unity. Fix one's consciousness on it, resolutely. It is the kind of heavenly vision that Paul told Agrippa he was faithful to, to the very end.

[DistantStar]

The primary thing which drove me away was the thought that, by making an us-vs-them distinction, the LC was in effect making themselves another part of the division that they so desperately hate.

Here's a thought: how about the Local Church dissolve itself, then we're one step closer to having a unity in practice as well? I know this is unlikely to ever be achieved. But why increase the division that you hate so much?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

I am not talking about the manyness of today's Christianity. I am talking about the sound of many waters. It's a beautiful sound. You can hear it anywhere. Even occasionally in Christianity.



Of course I offer my opinion and nothing more. But the unity of which I speak is the unity of the Son and the Father. "Even as we are one, they shall be one" The way to get to that unity is not to look at our disunity but to look at their unity. Fix one's consciousness on it, resolutely. It is the kind of heavenly vision that Paul told Agrippa he was faithful to, to the very end.

Unfortunately, the "many waters" includes "gay marriage is okay" and other such things. You are speaking of polluted waters. You must include all denominations in your assessment of Christianity, including the ones that marry homosexuals. If you don't, then you would be just like us, drawing a distinction between degraded Christianity and genuine Christianity.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Unfortunately, the "many waters" includes "gay marriage is okay" and other such things. You are speaking of polluted waters. .

No the sound of many waters comes from heaven. It can occasionally be heard in Christianity. It's less often heard in the LC, rife as it is with judgmentalism, superiority, scorning, and despising one's fellow.

In my former LC assembly we met as the church in that town but wouldn't talk to our neighbour Christians who weren't meeting on the proper ground (so we said). So we met as the church but despised the church. We had theory, weak as it was, but no practical expression. And the same 15 or 22 people met there, year after year, congratulating ourselves on our purity. Eventually I got tired of it and left. I didn't think the ideas were bad at all, but there was no reality.

Maybe it's different where you are, I don't know. Today I don't even like the idea. It smacks of elitism, which is the worst sin of all.

But if you insist on pointing out the "pollution in Christianity", by rights we should include the crimes of the Lee family: the sexual predation, the money laundering, the lies and the railroading of witnesses. But I don't, typically. I still receive the LC Christians as brothers and sisters in faith, same as the rest. Because we are all one. And only God is good.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

But if you insist on pointing out the "pollution in Christianity", by rights we should include the crimes of the Lee family: the sexual predation, the money laundering, the lies and the railroading of witnesses. .

Now you may think I'm waxing hyperbolic about the crimes of the Lee family. Here follows a testimony of one who was there, front row.

Originally Posted by Elden1971

Thanks for asking about my "excommunication". In an attempt to help a young brother that I brought to the church in OKC who was under condemnation for his personal failings I told him all have sinned and come short of the glory of the Lord and even our dear Bro. Lee had done illegal acts and the Lord had forgiven him and was still using him. This helped the brother and we prayed and he left.

The next day he apparently shared his testimony with another brother who immediately reported to James Barber that I had said Bro. Lee had done illegal acts. James called an emergency meeting of the elders and called me to come meet with them. Upon arrival James informed me that what I said was a lie and unless I repented I would be excommunicated. Of course what I had said was the truth regarding Bro. Lee committing illegal acts was absolutely true and I had been intimately involved in helping Francis Ball prepare his legal defense had he been caught (in retrospect what I said about Lee repenting may have been wrong) but suffice it to say I was in a real quandary. If I am to stay in Fellowship then I must say what I said was a lie when in fact it was the truth. I did not have the peace to uncover the sins of Bro. Lee even though I knew he was guilty so I reflected inwardly and said Lord I choose You and the Spirit of Glory fell upon me.

I said nothing in my defense and James pronounced my excommunication and the other elders nodded in agreement(two of whom I had brought to the church the other two appointed by Benson. Only James had spoken and thus I was excommunicated from the church in OKC that had been birthed in my heart and started in my home

When I said they railroaded witnesses, I meant just that.

Originally Posted by Oxford Dictionary

1 railroad somebody (into something/into doing something) to force someone to do something before they have had enough time to decide whether or not they want to do it
Example: "I will not be railroaded into signing something I don't agree with."

2 railroad something (through/through something) to make a group of people accept a decision, law, etc. quickly by putting pressure on them
Example: "The bill was railroaded through the House."

3 railroad somebody to decide that someone is guilty of a crime, without giving them a fair trial

[Cal]

Originally Posted by aron

When I said they railroaded witnesses, I meant just that.

There was a elder in Austin who was a little older than me. I had lived with his family while going to college, so I knew him pretty well. This was the account he gave to me of his excommunication.

Back around 1990, he began to be more and more troubled about what he saw happening in the "Recovery": The rallying around Lee after the Philip Lee's scandals, the increasing power of LSM, the financial hanky-panky. He said that as an elder you see things and that he saw money laundering.

He loved the church and wanted to see reforms. He told his fellow elders simply, "I cannot follow Witness Lee exclusively anymore." Not that he couldn't follow Witness Lee some, just not exclusively. How unreasonable is that? It was very reasonable and rational given the circumstances. The only thing more so would have been to cut ties with LSM altogether.

Their response? They asked him to either recant or resign. He resigned.

To put it in terms you guys that defend the Recovery might understand, "What is this??" Leave alone for the moment that following anyone exclusively amounts to being "of" that person, in violation of 1 Cor 3. Don't you see the utter corruption that comes from elevating someone to the status and power that Lee had and which LSM still has? Don't you understand the compromise and conflict of interest those reporting to him are subject to? It's amazing to me how obtuse you choose to be to about all this.