Jezebel -- why we should know who she is.

[Drake]

ZNP) "Jezebel refers to a Queen in Israel who had a major influence on her husband, the king of Israel."

Jezebel was not the queen in that her coming together with Ahab was fornication. God does not acknowledge the marriage between His people and the Gentiles as proper. She calls herself a prophetess but was not a prophetess by God's definition. Through a marital arrangement, an official fornication arrangement in this case, this Gentile woman assumes authority to exercise over God's people. By calling herself a prophetess she teaches God's people to commit fornication which leads to idolatry. She confuses the words of God and the people of God. Ahab the king was joined to the world through Jezebel.

That is why I think you are giving too much credit to Jezebel as if she were a legitimate queen in God's eyes. The woman who leavens in Matthew 13, the Jezebel in Thyatira in Revelation 2, and the Harlot in Revelation 17 provide insight into this woman's character and what she represents. She is not a part of God's elect she is only calling herself such, teaching as if she were, and assuming authority to exercise over God's genuine people.

Drake

[Drake]

ZNP) "Neither Ohio, Igzy or myself have argued that the physical is not needed, nor have we argued that both spiritual and physical are not needed. If we thought that we wouldn't even be in the discussion. Our discussion demonstrates that we do care about both."

You are arguing about the same thing just in varying degrees and angles. However, it was not fair to cite Igzy and Ohio while addressing your comments so my apologies for doing that. I will address their comments in their own context.

ZNP)"What we have noticed is that the so called "ground of the oneness" taught by Witness Lee does absolutely nothing to protect or keep the oneness and is actually used in practice as a tool to condemn and divide Christians."

My observation is that in practice you continually retreat to the ones in Ephesians as the base of your argument. When the discussion is about the biblical definition of meetings you assert that Brother Lee's teaching is at odds with the ones in Ephesians. When in fact, Brother Lee's interest is for the building of the Body of Christ and the churches, the procedure in this age, is for the building. The Catholic Church cannot build the Body of Christ. Being alone cannot build the Body of Christ. The clergy laity system cannot build the Body of Christ. There is a practical church life arrangement in the New Testament that is completely congruent with the ones in Ephesians. They are symbiotic. Define that to protect the oneness. Practice that and you keep in the oneness. Deviate that and you have divisions and confusion.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

My observation is that in practice you continually retreat to the ones in Ephesians as the base of your argument. When the discussion is about the biblical definition of meetings you assert that Brother Lee's teaching is at odds with the ones in Ephesians. When in fact, Brother Lee's interest is for the building of the Body of Christ and the churches, the procedure in this age, is for the building.

The Catholic Church cannot build the Body of Christ.
Being alone cannot build the Body of Christ.
The clergy laity system cannot build the Body of Christ.

There is a practical church life arrangement in the New Testament that is completely congruent with the ones in Ephesians. They are symbiotic. Define that to protect the oneness. Practice that and you keep in the oneness. Deviate that and you have divisions and confusion.

Drake

Just keep attacking the greater body of Christ and supposedly the "last man standing" is WL and the LC's who alone will "build the body of Christ."

This is the critical standard M.O. for every LC diehard. How is that working for you? Even Bill Lawson on that promotional message debunks that assertion. Have you heard?

I was in the LC's for 30 years, and I heard this spiel ad nauseum, but I never saw anything resembling the "builded body." Perhaps you might want to rethink your "gospel," and go with something that has a shred of veracity in it. The "practical church life arrangement in the New Testament that is completely congruent with the ones in Ephesians" exists no where in the present day "Recovery."

[Drake]

Ohio)" Even Bill Lawson on that promotional message debunks that assertion. Have you heard?"

If it is relevant post it here.

Drake

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

ZNP) "Jezebel refers to a Queen in Israel who had a major influence on her husband, the king of Israel."..

So if I understand you correctly you are saying that Jezebel was unjust, and that she was not fit to rule Israel and that it was utterly a fault of Israel that they allowed her to confuse the word of God and the people of God?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

So if I understand you correctly you are saying that Jezebel was unjust, and that she was not fit to rule Israel and that it was utterly a fault of Israel that they allowed her to confuse the word of God and the people of God?

All that's true.

But that is not what I said.

Drake

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

All that's true.

But that is not what I said.

Drake

No, but it is what Paul said:

1Cor 6:6 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.

What you did say is that "Jezebel was not the Queen, her coming together with Ahab was fornication".

In the same way the US government should not be called on to determine if the Witness Lee sect is a cult. That choice was utterly a fault among the LC, it demonstrated that they were blind and didn't even see that the unbelievers are not just, they are not able to make this judgement, and it was a shame that they couldn't find a Christian to judge the matter among themselves. In the end, the final analysis, Witness Lee and his henchman defrauded our brethren. Not just those that lost the lawsuit, but those that supported it, paid for it, etc.

Which is what you said when you said "By calling herself a prophetess she teaches God's people to commit fornication which leads to idolatry. She confuses the words of God and the people of God. Ahab the king was joined to the world through Jezebel."

You accuse me of giving too much credit to Jezebel and giving her legitimacy she didn't have. That is what Witness Lee and the blendeds did and do by using a legal defense team and lawsuits to advance their "ministry". Before judging others try removing the beam that is in your own eye.

[Drake]

ZNP

Since you knew that is not what I said why did you ask me if that is what I said?

Drake

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

ZNP

Since you knew that is not what I said why did you ask me if that is what I said?

Drake

So please clear up for us what you did say?

You said that "Jezebel was not a legitimate queen, her coming together with Ahaz was fornication."

In the same way Witness Lee came together with the US government to sue other Christians about an issue that should be judged by Christians, not unbelievers, not heathen, not the world.

You said ""By calling herself a prophetess she teaches God's people to commit fornication which leads to idolatry. She confuses the words of God and the people of God. Ahab the king was joined to the world through Jezebel."

In the same way Witness Lee joined the Local church with his legal defense fund when every single church was required to donate, privately, to this fund. If someone walks into a meeting and contributes to the offering they are completely unaware that this is being used, in part, to fund lawsuits against other Christians about LSM concerns with insults and slander others are speaking about them.

You accused me of giving Jezebel too much credit and legitimacy, yet it is Witness Lee that did that. Instead of going around and judging others, why not remove the beam from your own eye.

This isn't my opinion, it is Paul's --


1Cor 6:6 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.

You said:

My observation is that in practice you continually retreat to the ones in Ephesians as the base of your argument. When the discussion is about the biblical definition of meetings you assert that Brother Lee's teaching is at odds with the ones in Ephesians. When in fact, Brother Lee's interest is for the building of the Body of Christ and the churches, the procedure in this age, is for the building. The Catholic Church cannot build the Body of Christ. Being alone cannot build the Body of Christ. The clergy laity system cannot build the Body of Christ. There is a practical church life arrangement in the New Testament that is completely congruent with the ones in Ephesians. They are symbiotic. Define that to protect the oneness. Practice that and you keep in the oneness. Deviate that and you have divisions and confusion.

Witness Lee clearly deviated from the practical church life arrangement given to us by the Apostle Paul. That deviation has caused division and confusion.

You said:

That is why I think you are giving too much credit to Jezebel as if she were a legitimate queen in God's eyes. The woman who leavens in Matthew 13, the Jezebel in Thyatira in Revelation 2, and the Harlot in Revelation 17 provide insight into this woman's character and what she represents. She is not a part of God's elect she is only calling herself such, teaching as if she were, and assuming authority to exercise over God's genuine people.

The woman who leavens in Matthew 13 is the woman that Witness Lee joined to to stone other believers for blasphemy and seize their vineyards. She is Jezebel in Thyatira and the Harlot in the religious world (Rev 17) and the material world (Rev 18). Witness Lee allowed her to assume authority over God's genuine people.

[Drake]

ZNP,

Does the mention of Jezebel in the Old and New Testament have any greater significance to you than a lawsuit?

If so, what?

Drake