ETERNAL TORMENT IS FALSE TEACHING WHAT SAY YE'?

[zeek]

You're all coming at this subject with a least two unsupported assumptions:

1.That the writers of the Bible knew what they were talking about. We have a lot more knowledge of the universe then they did during Biblical times, and so far, I'm not aware that anyone has discovered a place that fits the Biblical description of hell. Sure, there are the so-called near death experience [NDEs]. But, at this point in the state of knowledge, NDEs are more likely neuropsychological than metaphysical.

2. That the writers all believed the same thing about the after-life. Since many of them were not aware of each other and wrote at different times as the Judaeo-Christian religion developed, its more likely that there is a variety of beliefs about these things.

[manna-man]

LOL! Ken...

The same could be said about you or me.

IMHO, it can be difficult to discredit eye witnesses.

I'm perplexed by your vague statement but it does have me now wondering if there were blue skies or overcast skies on the days they may not have known what they were talking about...I really wonder if they were intellectual enough to comprehend anything. :-)

[zeek]

Originally Posted by manna-man

LOL! Ken...

The same could be said about you or me.

IMHO, it can be difficult to discredit eye witnesses.

I'm perplexed by your vague statement but it does have me now wondering if there were blue skies or overcast skies on the days they may not have known what they were talking about...I really wonder if they were intellectual enough to comprehend anything. :-)

How could they be eye witnesses to eternal torment or hell?

[manna-man]

Ken,

Your efforts would be better served making a case against those who perpetuated the myth/false doctrine of eternal torment. Not trying to debunk me for making the case. Anyone that has put any thought into it knows God couldn't be so evil.
I will remain cautious to enter into a deep discussion with you or Harold because it is quite evident that you two go way beyond reasonable efforts to twist the truths with your contorted narratives.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by manna-man

Ken,

Your efforts would be better served making a case against those who perpetuated the myth/false doctrine of eternal torment. Not trying to debunk me for making the case. Anyone that has put any thought into it knows God couldn't be so evil.
I will remain cautious to enter into a deep discussion with you or Harold because it is quite evident that you two go way beyond reasonable efforts to twist the truths with your contorted narratives.

Not at all. I try to practice the philosophical principle of charity toward them and toward you. That includes putting the best possible construction on your opponent's views. What I usually see on Internet forums is the opposite practice of putting the worst possible construction on the opponent's views. Furthermore, I assume that you and they are persons of good will unless I see evidence to the contrary. In times of conflict such as we are living in today, don't you find that refreshing?

Deluded or not, I actually believe I am seeking the Truth. I would like to believe a universalist view not unlike that of the early church father Origen wherein everyone is eventually saved. But, alas, I have found the metaphysical skepticism of commentators like David Hume and Immanuel Kant to be persuasive. Sooo, my days of metaphysical dogma appear to be over, or at least on a long sabbatical.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by zeek

Not at all. I try to practice the philosophical principle of charity toward them and toward you. That includes putting the best possible construction on your opponent's views. What I usually see on Internet forums is the opposite practice of putting the worst possible construction on the opponent's views. Furthermore, I assume that you and they are persons of good will unless I see evidence to the contrary. In times like of conflict such as we are living in today, don't you find that refreshing?

Deluded or not, I actually believe I am seeking the Truth. I would like to believe a universalist view not unlike that of the early church father Origen wherein everyone is eventually saved. But, alas, I have found the metaphysical skepticism of commentators like David Hume and Immanuel Kant to be persuasive. Sooo, my days of metaphysical dogma appear to be over, or at least on a long sabbatical.

Searching for the Truth is more about learning to listen and know our heart/spirit, than an outward search for knowledge. I don't think you will find it on this forum or any other place that is not your own heart. Because the Truth is in our heart/spirit. Once we find that, then we can figure out all the doctrine in our mind later on. So I think the Truth is something you already have, you just need to tap into it to convince your mind.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Searching for the Truth is more about learning to listen and know our heart/spirit, than an outward search for knowledge. I don't think you will find it on this forum or any other place that is not your own heart. Because the Truth is in our heart/spirit. Once we find that, then we can figure out all the doctrine in our mind later on. So I think the Truth is something you already have, you just need to tap into it to convince your mind.

I agree with the notion that the truth is in us. But the idea that we are going to tap into it now and use our minds later is wrong according to my experience. That reminds me of Witness Lee's "turn from your mind to your spirit" formula. I tried it for 13 years. It didn't work.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Searching for the Truth is more about learning to listen and know our heart/spirit, than an outward search for knowledge. I don't think you will find it on this forum or any other place that is not your own heart. Because the Truth is in our heart/spirit. Once we find that, then we can figure out all the doctrine in our mind later on. So I think the Truth is something you already have, you just need to tap into it to convince your mind.

Like they say in the Eastern religions : You are what you seek.

And by the way, they don't have this hell problem over there. They didn't have the pleasure of meeting Jesus ; that's responsible for our present day conception of hell. To them, the soul lives on eternally, but reincarnates, around and around, until enough lessons are learned to earn 'em heaven. But I guess that's a kind of hell. This life kinda proves that. More of them would be a real and living hell. Maybe worse than fire. I don't know, cuz I've never burned and burned forever and ever, without being cremated.

But according to the person that offered the OP of this thread, I guess I might have an opportunity to find out. Maybe not, cuz he don't believe in hell. He's like a JW.

[awareness]

Hey Jr. Glad you're hear to get spunky with our traditional conceptions of hell.

Could a loving God invent an eternal cosmic torture chamber?

Well, you provided a quote (a long one by the way), so I'll answer this with a quote (see if you get it):

"This Bible is built mainly out of the fragments of older Bibles that had their day and crumbled to ruin. So it noticeably lacks in originality, necessarily. Its three or four most imposing and impressive events all happened in earlier Bibles; all its best precepts and rules of conduct came also from those Bibles; there are only two new things in it: hell, for one, and that singular heaven I have told you about. What shall we do? If we believe, with these people, that their God invented these cruel things, we slander him; if we believe that these people invented them themselves, we slander them. It is an unpleasant dilemma in either case, for neither of these parties has done us any harm. For the sake of tranquillity, let us take a side. Let us join forces with the people and put the whole ungracious burden upon him—heaven, hell, Bible and all. It does not seem right, it does not seem fair; and yet when you consider that heaven, and how crushingly charged it is with everything that is repulsive to a human being, how can we believe a human being invented it? And when I come to tell you about hell, the strain will be greater still, and you will be likely to say, No, a man would not provide that place, for either himself or anybody else; he simply couldn’t."
~ Twain, Mark. Letters from the Earth: Uncensored Writings (Perennial Classics) (Kindle Locations 240-246). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.

[manna-man]

Originally Posted by awareness

Hey Jr. Glad you're hear to get spunky with our traditional conceptions of hell.

Could a loving God invent an eternal cosmic torture chamber?

Well, you provided a quote (a long one by the way), so I'll answer this with a quote (see if you get it):

"This Bible is built mainly out of the fragments of older Bibles that had their day and crumbled to ruin. So it noticeably lacks in originality, necessarily. Its three or four most imposing and impressive events all happened in earlier Bibles; all its best precepts and rules of conduct came also from those Bibles; there are only two new things in it: hell, for one, and that singular heaven I have told you about. What shall we do? If we believe, with these people, that their God invented these cruel things, we slander him; if we believe that these people invented them themselves, we slander them. It is an unpleasant dilemma in either case, for neither of these parties has done us any harm. For the sake of tranquillity, let us take a side. Let us join forces with the people and put the whole ungracious burden upon him—heaven, hell, Bible and all. It does not seem right, it does not seem fair; and yet when you consider that heaven, and how crushingly charged it is with everything that is repulsive to a human being, how can we believe a human being invented it? And when I come to tell you about hell, the strain will be greater still, and you will be likely to say, No, a man would not provide that place, for either himself or anybody else; he simply couldn’t."
~ Twain, Mark. Letters from the Earth: Uncensored Writings (Perennial Classics) (Kindle Locations 240-246). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.

Crumbled to ruin?

Harold,

Only Satan himself would try to spin a narrative like yours and hope men would allow such foolishness to take root in their minds. You have thrown the baby out with the bathwater/given up on the gospel of Christ and crossed over to the dark side.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by manna-man

Crumble to ruin?

Harold,

Only Satan himself would try to spin a narrative like yours and hope men would allow such foolishness to take root in their minds. You have thrown the baby out with the bathwater/given up on the gospel of Christ and crossed over to the dark side.

Now now Don. Harold's not Satan. A Halloween witch maybe, but not Satan.

[manna-man]

Originally Posted by zeek

Now now Don. Harold's not Satan. A Halloween witch maybe, but not Satan.

Ken...you and Harold remind me of a couple of characters in the book "screwtape letters by C.S. Lewis.)

[zeek]

Originally Posted by manna-man

Ken...you and Harold remind me of a couple of characters in the book "screwtape letters by C.S. Lewis.)

You have such a vivid imagination. Good. A rich imagination is a sign of intelligence. But, let us hope, not intelligence gone array. I immensely enjoyed The Screwtape Letters @ 40 years ago when I was in college a member of Inter-varsity a campus Christian Club and the Baptist Student Union. That was before I was contacted by Witness Lee's Local Church where I was exhorted to read nothing but the Bible and Witness Lee's writings. Even Watchman Nee's works were discouraged because they weren't in the up-to-date flow. What an indoctrination I got there! Whew, it made my head spin like Linda Blair's in the Exorcist.

But, I digress... what you are doing is demonizing old Harold and I. And you are doing it quite literally rather than in the metaphorical sense in which the term is used in politics. What you're experiencing is a fear of the Other.

Personally, I don't mind it. It's not like I'm trying to be accepted in your cult or sect, or political pod or whatever. I am here at the pleasure of UntoHim who runs this joint and can kick me out at any time. He and I have had our go-rounds and we have come to appreciate each at least in the dungeon here that we call Alt Views. I rarely venture into the so-called "open" forums of this site where all but the orthodox evangelical argue with each other and other POVs freak people out. Boring.

So, anyway, this is kind of neutral ground where we can talk and tell the truth as we see it. So, welcome to you Don. I bear no animosity toward you for kicking me out of your special club or unfriending me. Given what I perceive to be your mindset, I wouldn't have it any other way.

So, Harold and I are threatening to you, dangerous as it were?

[manna-man]

Originally Posted by zeek

You have such a vivid imagination. Good. A rich imagination is a sign of intelligence. But, let us hope, not intelligence gone array. I immensely enjoyed The Screwtape Letters @ 40 years ago when I was in college a member of Inter-varsity a campus Christian Club and the Baptist Student Union. That was before I was contacted by Witness Lee's Local Church where I was exhorted to read nothing but the Bible and Witness Lee's writings. Even Watchman Nee's works were discouraged because they weren't in the up-to-date flow. What an indoctrination I got there! Whew, it made my head spin like Linda Blair's in the Exorcist.

But, I digress... what you are doing is demonizing old Harold and I. And you are doing it quite literally rather than in the metaphorical sense in which the term is used in politics. What you're experiencing is a fear of the Other.

Personally, I don't mind it. It's not like I'm trying to be accepted in your cult or sect, or political pod or whatever. I am here at the pleasure of UntoHim who runs this joint and can kick me out at any time. He and I have had our go-rounds and we have come to appreciate each at least in the dungeon here that we call Alt Views. I rarely venture into the so-called "open" forums of this site where all but the orthodox evangelical argue with each other and other POVs freak people out. Boring.

So, anyway, this is kind of neutral ground where we can talk and tell the truth as we see it. So, welcome to you Don. I bear no animosity toward you for kicking me out of your special club or unfriending me. Given what I perceive to be your mindset, I wouldn't have it any other way.

So, Harold and I are threatening to you, dangerous as it were?

Not to me.... but IMHO to yourselves and innocent bystanders.

Shock value is over rated....

Unbridled tongues are like a ship without a rudder. They ram and sink newbies.

As I scan the topics here on Altered states......I can't imagine how this all came to be.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by manna-man

Crumbled to ruin?

Harold,

Only Satan himself would try to spin a narrative like yours and hope men would allow such foolishness to take root in their minds. You have thrown the baby out with the bathwater/given up on the gospel of Christ and crossed over to the dark side.

I am not the topic of this thread.

[manna-man]

Originally Posted by awareness

I am not the topic of this thread.

Sure you are.

And so am I and everyone else.

Is it not a main function of this group to have open discussions and express our experiences
and ideas? You do this all the time. Must I abide by a different standard that you helped form here on Alternative views? A quick review of your posts will validate that you are...(Your Opinions). Are the topic on many threads.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

You're all coming at this subject with a least two unsupported assumptions:

1.That the writers of the Bible knew what they were talking about. We have a lot more knowledge of the universe then they did during Biblical times, and so far, I'm not aware that anyone has discovered a place that fits the Biblical description of hell. Sure, there are the so-called near death experience [NDEs]. But, at this point in the state of knowledge, NDEs are more likely neuropsychological than metaphysical.

2. That the writers all believed the same thing about the after-life. Since many of them were not aware of each other and wrote at different times as the Judaeo-Christian religion developed, its more likely that there is a variety of beliefs about these things.

How do we know that you are not a computer generating posts on a forum.

Even the so-called eye-witnesses who once knew you cannot be trusted since we know so much more than we did back in the 20th century.

I need substantial, verifiable, and testable evidence to prove you are really a human, until then I must assume otherwise.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

How do we know that you are not a computer generating posts on a forum.

Even the so-called eye-witnesses who once knew you cannot be trusted since we know so much more than we did back in the 20th century.

I need substantial, verifiable, and testable evidence to prove you are really a human, until then I must assume otherwise.

There are few things I am more certain of than the fact that I am not a robot. I doubt that you have serious doubts about it either. If you did, it's easy enough for you to check out. Not so for statements about hell or eternal torment or the after-life in general which we have NO way to verify short of suicide in which case you likely will not be reporting back. So your argument has minimal bearing on the question at hand.