All natural things are bad?

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Like any analogy you have to take it with a grain of salt. I simply used it to point out that the Spirit does not eliminate our natural gifts, he empowers them to be used by God. As Evangelical has rightly pointed out, if we try to use our natural gifts without the Spirit to do something for God, it will usually end badly. "Without me you can do nothing."

I agree. And I understood your use of the metaphor. Just suggesting something beyond might be closer to what really is.

And my reasoning is that while I fully believe in the "without me you can do nothing," I think that there is a propensity to forget that while God can do anything he wants, he generally only does what we go along with, or take part in. So there is also a kind of "without us, God can, but often doesn't do anything."

If I don't take part (if my hand isn't engaged) then God doesn't act. I am not a passive glove on God's hand. (Reminds me of a bug wearing an Edgar suit — MIB) I am an active part of whatever happens. Without Him, and without me, nothing happens. Without Him, we simply fail. Without me, God may cause an earthquake, but he doesn't change me unless I take part.

Not denying that he could. I just don't believe that he does. We can become the grain in the weeds. (or more correctly, the weeds themselves)