Hear The Cases

[TLFisher]

Following is a recent writing by Steve Isitt I had been included in an email An Appeal for a Ministry of Reconciliation of which current and former leaders in the local churches were included as were selected localities, and selected representatives of Fuller Seminary.
HeartheCases.pdf

[TLFisher]

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ead.php?t=5135

"The minister at "my" church has been speaking from the two letters to Timothy. You can't touch this in the LC. Receive not an accusation against an elder except with two or three witnesses. I believe it is well established that an accusation with ten accusers does not fly in the LC. They can smear and get rid of ten as well as one. Any accusation in the LC is divisive and they remove all divisions."

The above quote from Lisbon is from post #99 of the linked thread. Due to the teaching/practices of deputy authority, "Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. " is deemed invalid. The Deputy Authority practices supersedes scripture. Sooner or later you will be disciplined if you attempt to bring an accusation to an elder or co-worker (the deputy/delegated authority) by that mattter. You learn not to touch the deputy authority no matter how many witnesses. Read the attached pdf from this thread and you will read one such case.

[Freedom]

I think that the LC is highly prone to situations as described in the document that is posted. I used to wonder why the LC had so many "problems". Well it turns out that everyone is afraid to address problems and therefore problems grow bigger and bigger until you get these bizarre and strange situations.

The elders/coworkers just say that the churches aren't perfect, as if that is some excuse for these situations that hurt people.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I think that the LC is highly prone to situations as described in the document that is posted. I used to wonder why the LC had so many "problems". Well it turns out that everyone is afraid to address problems and therefore problems grow bigger and bigger until you get these bizarre and strange situations.

The elders/coworkers just say that the churches aren't perfect, as if that is some excuse for these situations that hurt people.

The case in Ontario with Mario Sandoval, is indicative leading brothers don't want to touch their peers. When ones such as Mario begin blowing the whistle, then it's time to set ones such as Mario aside. Until that time the offended are tolerated by elders/co-workers.

“Now we realize that every local church must be a police station and that every saint must be a policeman. Many have been reluctant to act as policemen for fear they might cause trouble…. If we see evil deeds but do not function as policemen, then we are not practicing the truth…”

[TLFisher]

Very bizarre how a brother in Samuel Liu who in these testimonies displays consistently anger management issues. How did such a brother get to be in a position of responsibility?

Even blended brother James Lee said, “brothers, Samuel has a sickness; it is the same sickness that his two children have, and if you want to follow him in Ontario, that is up to you.”

What is it that keeps a brother with anger issues exempt from discipline? Seemingly an untouchable. My conclusion is perhaps he or his family had contributed much financially to LSM and that's it's because of financial contribution that enabled him to a function of responsibility that has nothing to do with his spiritual growth. Just the unwillingness to reconcile is an exhibition of a lack of spiritual maturity.

Even James Lee said concerning Mario's plea concerning Samuel Liu, “I am only going to listen to you, since I can’t do anything”. Let me get this straight, James Lee cannot do anything about Samuel Liu, but he can do something about Mario and his wife being prohibited from meeting with the Church in Vista?

From elder in Vista Chris Nerstad: "Bro. James Lee had fellowship with me and told me not to receive you in the meetings of the church in Vista and I respect the fellowship that comes from James Lee.‟

My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

[aron]

Originally Posted by Terry

Very bizarre how a brother in Samuel Liu who in these testimonies displays consistently anger management issues. ... What is it that keeps a brother with anger issues exempt from discipline? Seemingly an untouchable.

I wonder if it is more common with charismatic groups, but from my observation they often exalt the leaders as if they were the special vectors of the "holy fire", or "God's blessing." Then, when the inevitable abuses happen, whether they are monetary, power, sexual, or whatnot, the response becomes, "touch not God's anointed." As if somehow there are two sets of rules, one for the proletariat and one for "God's anointed".

And in rigid, controlling groups like in the Lord's Recovery, those who rule from the podiums also think nothing of reaching into the audience of the rank-and-file and touching them, who in the NT are also God's anointed. In the NT we are all kings, and we are all priests. This is a perversion.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

And in rigid, controlling groups like in the Lord's Recovery, those who rule from the podiums also think nothing of reaching into the audience of the rank-and-file and touching them, who in the NT are also God's anointed. In the NT we are all kings, and we are all priests. This is a perversion.

That would contradict the generally received notion in the recovery that there is NO CLERGY AND LAIETY.

[TLFisher]

How many times have I heard there's no hierarchy in the Lord's Recovery. Following are quotes from Hear the Cases that indicate otherwise.

Regarding Chris Nerstad (elder from the Church in Vista)
“To our big surprise, the following Saturday at 10:00pm, we received a phone call from our brother Chris Nerstad and he told me, “Brother Mario, please don‟t come to my son‟s wedding in my house, don‟t come to the meetings of the church in Vista, and don‟t move to live in the city of Vista, Ca. I was so shock, and I said, „Bro. Chris, what happen.‟ Then Chris said, “Bro. James Lee had fellowship with me and told me not to receive you in the meetings of the church in Vista and I respect the fellowship that comes from James Lee.‟

Regarding Jorge Lara (elder from the Church in Chula Vista)
Then I said, “Brother Jorge, I thought that you believed in the manuscripts of brother W Nee, “the administration is local in each city.” He said again, “don‟t take it personal, they called me from Anaheim, CA and told me not to receive You.”

“Then I said, “Jorge, is one thing not for me to go to the meetings in Chula Vista, because someone order you from Anaheim, Ca., but, is another thing that you wanted me to cancel the lunch that I‟m having for brother and sisters in my own house, you are going too far.” These were the last two churches we were trying to meet with the saints but we couldn't because they had received orders from Anaheim, CA not to receive us. “We had written that letter to the co-workers and they never answer to us, instead they are talking to the local churches giving them orders not to receive us in their meetings. Until this moment we don‟t know why?

Regarding Les Cites (elder from the Church in San Diego)
This couple, then, was set aside from the church life and officially quarantined from the churches. They found this out for certain after attending a conference meeting October 2011 and were summoned to meet in a room with Les Cites, who informed them that if they wanted to come back into the church life they needed to first report to brothers in Anaheim

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Terry

How many times have I heard there's no hierarchy in the Lord's Recovery. Following are quotes from Hear the Cases that indicate otherwise.

If anyone in the LC is asked to "report to Anaheim", and they don't know the brothers in Anaheim personally, they should call the bluff, period. There is no reason why anyone should be expected to report to brothers for "fellowship" who they do not know personally.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

If anyone in the LC is asked to "report to Anaheim", and they don't know the brothers in Anaheim personally, they should call the bluff, period. There is no reason why anyone should be expected to report to brothers for "fellowship" who they do not know personally.

Another way to look at it, suppose Anaheim tells A locality to not receive a particular brother, and the localities elder is not so keen on it and decides to receive at as being fellowship and not as an order. In that instance, would Anaheim take action against the elder for rebelling against "fellowship"?
No matter how you phrase the terminology, it's hierarchy.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Terry

Another way to look at it, suppose Anaheim tells A locality to not receive a particular brother, and the localities elder is not so keen on it and decides to receive at as being fellowship and not as an order. In that instance, would Anaheim take action against the elder for rebelling against "fellowship"?
No matter how you phrase the terminology, it's hierarchy.

I'm thinking the order would come through the co-worker that supervises the states that the local church was a part of, and not directly from someone with an Anaheim phone prefix. I think local elders could choose to ignore the "fellowship" and be OK, but they might be subjected to continual peer pressure from co-workers and other elders to support the "flow". It seems to me things move very slowly in the LSM-LC movement, and it could take several years of pressure to "knuckle under" a wayward elder. I once asked a leading elder if he was going to follow the lords move to Europe and he told me he only does what the co-worker for our area tells him to do.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by HERn

I'm thinking the order would come through the co-worker that supervises the states that the local church was a part of, and not directly from someone with an Anaheim phone prefix. I think local elders could choose to ignore the "fellowship" and be OK, but they might be subjected to continual peer pressure from co-workers and other elders to support the "flow". It seems to me things move very slowly in the LSM-LC movement, and it could take several years of pressure to "knuckle under" a wayward elder. I once asked a leading elder if he was going to follow the lords move to Europe and he told me he only does what the co-worker for our area tells him to do.

It wouldn't surprise me if there were certain coworkers appointed to oversee a certain set of churches. I know that where I'm from, there are one or two coworkers that have visited fairly frequently compared to any other coworkers.

It's hard to say what level of influence they have. What I have noticed is the local elders tend to defer things to the coworkers when they seem unsure of themselves. Maybe many of the elders are not completely confident with their leadership abilities so they feel like the need the coworkers as father figures to help them through some of the more important decisions.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

It wouldn't surprise me if there were certain coworkers appointed to oversee a certain set of churches. I know that where I'm from, there are one or two coworkers that have visited fairly frequently compared to any other coworkers.

It's hard to say what level of influence they have. What I have noticed is the local elders tend to defer things to the coworkers when they seem unsure of themselves. Maybe many of the elders are not completely confident with their leadership abilities so they feel like the need the coworkers as father figures to help them through some of the more important decisions.

LSM's continued dominance requires that all the local brothers lack confidence in their own decisions. In fact, this pattern is systemic throughout the program. Every member is indoctrinated into believing that "safe" decisions are made for you by others, and all personal decisions are deemed "independent." The regular "storms" and "purges" in the Recovery are more about rooting out this "independence" than anything else.

Titus Chu used to say that every great general had a long trail of dead soldiers behind him. And this was his justification?!?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Titus Chu used to say that every great general had a long trail of dead soldiers behind him. And this was his justification?!?

That's Lee and Chu. How long is the trail of dead soldiers behind them?

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by awareness

That's Lee and Chu. How long is the trail of dead soldiers behind them?

It's probably quite a long trail. I guess that would depend on how many independent thinkers there have been in the LC. They can't have those kind of people, they are dangerous.
I am convinced that one of the most valuable assets to the blendeds are local elders who posses limited leadership abilities, but lack the confidence to make any important decisions. Those leaders who are able to lead an LC in an autonomous fashion are the most dangerous. Those leaders who are completely out of control such as what is described in Hear the Cases are tolerated as long as they are supporting the ministry.

I actually find it quite ironic. Local churches who sought to function autonomously, minding their own business, such as those in the midwest, were sued over church property. When a situation comes up where an out of control leader (who supports the ministry), is being abusive, there is no action taken to deal with the leader. Instead those who have been wronged by him are quarantined. It defies all logic.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

That's Lee and Chu. How long is the trail of dead soldiers behind them?

And when and where did any of the apostles assume the position of Commander-in-Chief?

Does not that unique role belong exclusively to the Lord Himself?

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Ohio

And when and where did any of the apostles assume the position of Commander-in-Chief?

Does not that unique role belong exclusively to the Lord Himself?

And His final perfecting act was the culmination of "I came not to be served, but to serve" by the offering of His human life so that millions could be victors over sin, satan, and death. Compare this to what WL and the BBs offer.

[aron]

Originally Posted by HERn

And His final perfecting act was the culmination of "I came not to be served, but to serve" by the offering of His human life so that millions could be victors over sin, satan, and death. Compare this to what WL and the BBs offer.

The ministry, so-called, is a black hole with an inferiority complex at its center. Everything goes in, and nothing comes out. I told this story before so bear with me: several years ago I visited my old "local church", and saw that the building was the same, the piano was the same, the songs were the same, many of the older characters were the same.

But you know what I noticed? No young adults. They were all either "in the world" or they were "serving the ministry". Seems that you either got vacuumed up by Anaheim and put in service at some ministry outpost, or you just couldn't make it, spiritually. Actually, there's nearly nothing local at all about the local churches of Witness Lee. They're merely feeders for the ministry.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

But you know what I noticed? No young adults. They were all either "in the world" or they were "serving the ministry". Seems that you either got vacuumed up by Anaheim and put in service at some ministry outpost, or you just couldn't make it, spiritually. Actually, there's nearly nothing local at all about the local churches of Witness Lee. They're merely feeders for the ministry.

The majority of LC young adults who actively meet are being sucked in to the FTTA. I'm inclined to believe that this is mostly happening through coercion. With some of those I know, this was indeed the case. I think those like me who chose not to go ended up feeling second tier. Most either dropped out of the LC completely or withdrew gradually. I find it really sad what the LC has become. It's not that there is an absence of young adults, if you go to certain LC's you might see a lot of young adults, but the reality of it is they are mostly FTTA graduates who know how to "play church". At least in the old days, the LC atmosphere was something that could be created without sending people off to Anaheim for two years.

It just goes to show the fundamental problem at the heart of the LC. It is a system of hierarchy that necessitates individuals who express full allegiance to the ministry (LSM) and the ministry only. It starts with planting leaders in churches that are LSM loyal. LC history has proven that isn't quite enough. Some leaders become defectors. The LC also need members who can also stay loyal to the ministry in case a leader is to be ousted. This is accomplished through things like the FTTA.

The whole LC environment is about creating loyalty and allegiance towards the ministry. That's why they love to make statements like: "other Christians don't..." or "we are so thankful for the ministry of the age". It's all a matter of increasing dependence on the ministry. This is what really turned me off about the LC. In my interactions with LC members, I began to notice more and more that there was always a hidden agenda at play. If someone wanted to have lunch we me, they didn't just want to have lunch, there was usually something specific that they wanted to discuss or ask. Same thing with conversations. Conversations always seemed to go towards things like "are you going to the summer training?" or "what did you enjoy from the HWFMR?". There was hardly ever any opportunities to discuss normal things without having a conversation go in a direction to where there was an attempt to analyze how much I was getting into the ministry. That is how I might summarize the majority of my LC interactions, people trying to determine whether or not I was fully engulfed in the ministry.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

The majority of LC young adults who actively meet are being sucked in to the FTTA. I'm inclined to believe that this is mostly happening through coercion. With some of those I know, this was indeed the case. I think those like me who chose not to go ended up feeling second tier. Most either dropped out of the LC completely or withdrew gradually. I find it really sad what the LC has become. It's not that there is an absence of young adults, if you go to certain LC's you might see a lot of young adults, but the reality of it is they are mostly FTTA graduates who know how to "play church". At least in the old days, the LC atmosphere was something that could be created without sending people off to Anaheim for two years.

In this day and age, with many companies outsourcing work to third world nations, it doesn't a college graduate any good attending FTTA two years and them looking for work.
If I was a recent college graduate in the local churches, I wouldn't consider FTTA unless there's guarantee of full time support upon FTTA graduation.

[TLFisher]

In the fractured relationship between Mario Sandoval and Samuel Liu, the political nature of LSM showed it's true nature.

“They knew he was wrong, but they did not know how to deal with him, how to stop him. They told us to please cover the situation, not to tell anybody and that the co-workers were going to take care of Samuel Liu."

“That Monday I stood up and said to them, “brothers, how can I share about the oneness? I have been meeting with all of you for about a year and a half and here, pointing my hand to Samuel Liu, he would not speak to me. I asked Samuel in front of everybody, “Is not that right, bro. Samuel, that you don’t talk to me? Then I (Mario) said to Samuel, you brother Samuel say that you are one of the co-workers and yet you cannot talk to me? Samuel replied, “everything is in the hands of the blended co-workers.”

“I (Mario) replied, to bro. Samuel what does this have to do with the blended co-workers? This is something between you and me. After this the behavior of Samuel was unbelievable, He cross his arms, put his head down, close his eyes, even foam came out of his mouth and said, ‘Like I said before, everything is in the hands of the blended co-workers’.

“James Lee said, we got the letter and we will take care of it. I waited and waited and nobody responded to me, to my May 18, 2005 letter sent over two years before. The brothers in Ontario saw how bad the situation was getting, so they called JL, and asked him if they could meet with him. Tom Serratti, Benjamin Liu, Damaso Flores, Samuel Liu and I from Ontario met with James Lee. Samuel Liu was forced by his flesh brother Benjamin Liu to come to this meeting. James Lee said; “I am only going to listen to you, since I can’t do anything”.

Now, James Lee is a blended co-worker and he can't do anything? Has the partial nature of being a LSM co-worker reduced a brother to paralysis?

“I (Mario) said, this meeting is for brother Samuel Liu and I to be reconciled. Samuel Liu started doing the same thing, he said, “everything is in the hands of the blended co-workers”, cross his arms, bow down his head, close his eyes, and foam came out of his mouth. The meeting was over and nothing was done. His brother, Benjamin Liu, came to me and said, Mario this time we couldn’t do anything, maybe next time."

“After calling and calling Benjamin Liu for at least one month for us to meet again with James Lee, we were able to meet see if at this time SL would reconcile with me. We had the second meeting but sad to say the same thing happened. At the end of the meeting, SL said the same thing, “everything is in the hands of the blended co-workers”. SL would not talk to me and did not want to be reconciled with me."

Why did Samuel Liu keep saying everything is in the hands of the blended co-workers?
Is it because he knew they have no backbone to do anything?
Or is it because Samuel knew he didn't have to do anything and by saying " everything is in the hands of the blended co-workers" was his subtle challenge to the blended co-workers to just try to do something about it.
As a result it was easier for James Lee and fellow blended co-workers to have Mario put out than it was to undertake any discipline towards Samuel.
In my eyes the blended co-workers show their political nature just like a Pontius Pilate.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

In this day and age, with many companies outsourcing work to third world nations, it doesn't a college graduate any good attending FTTA two years and them looking for work.
If I was a recent college graduate in the local churches, I wouldn't consider FTTA unless there's guarantee of full time support upon FTTA graduation.

Titus Chu in Cleveland often had regional long-term events for aspiring saints. He could never call them "T-R-A-I-N-I-N-G-S" since only Witness Lee himself was qualified to "T-R-A-I-N" us, so he called them a "10 Month Labor."

Lucky for me Cleveland never had inspections for my underwear drawer, like they had at the FTTTaipei.

In order to expedite the transition back into civilian life, the "Labor" would not necessarily follow univ. graduation, but could be based on the participants' own schedule, facilitating necessary lifestyle adjustments both before and after the "Labor." This was a definite improvement to LSM's arrangement, which FTTA was never willing to accept. Needless to say, for numerous reasons including this one, many FTTA trainees had much difficulty assimilating back to the normal church life in their localities. LSM always blamed the local elders for this, especially in the GLA, since there could never be a problem with "Brother Lee's Training."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

Why did Samuel Liu keep saying everything is in the hands of the blended co-workers?

Because the Blendeds had become his "god."

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

In order to expedite the transition back into civilian life, the "Labor" would not necessarily follow univ. graduation, but could be based on the participants' own schedule, facilitating necessary lifestyle adjustments both before and after the "Labor." This was a definite improvement to LSM's arrangement, which FTTA was never willing to accept. Needless to say, for numerous reasons including this one, many FTTA trainees had much difficulty assimilating back to the normal church life in their localities. LSM always blamed the local elders for this, especially in the GLA, since there could never be a problem with "Brother Lee's Training."

LSM will accept nothing less than absolute commitment (and that is what they value). That's probably the big difference between Titus Chu's "labors" and the FTTA. I don't think it was really about which one was better, it was about the fact that FTTA attendance necessitates that trainees drop everything to attend. If you can get someone to drop everything for two years, that is indicative of a long term commitment to the system. Even if disillusionment sets in somewhere down the road, there will be some who are so deep in the system that there aren't many paths out.

When members are wholly committed to a system such as the LC, anything goes. They can be told where to move, whether to work or serve. They will turn a blind eye to abusive leaders. It is something that really gives the LC a lot of power. Without members who serve as "enablers" for LC leaders, the LC would probably just be a quirky system, becoming rapidly irrelevant. The whole situation of Samuel Liu in Ontario is something that would never be allowed to take place in most churches, and it is just an example of some of the factors at play behind the scenes that allow for that kind of abusive behavior.

No one in their right mind should accept that kind of behavior from a church leader, or any kind of leader period. Nevertheless, those in the LC were accepting of it. Why? Members are conditioned to not speak up. More importantly, members are committed. Speaking up has consequences. If someone has years of their life invested in the LC, the possibility of being label as "negative" doesn't look too appealing, even if it means tolerating unseemly behavior.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Speaking up has consequences. If someone has years of their life invested in the LC, the possibility of being label as "negative" doesn't look too appealing, even if it means tolerating unseemly behavior.

For a brother or sister to be negative, it doesn't happen over night. It's not as if they set their mind to be negative. The label is a result of reacting to abuse. How many times is someone going to be bullied, before they react?

Here's my historical analogy for the day, when British colonists began arriving in North America in the 17th century, there was no indication of the colonists becoming "negative" towards the British crown. Rather there was roughly 140-150 years of the colonists being "positive" before the colonists began "reacting" against the British government for their abuses of the colonies.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Terry

For a brother or sister to be negative, it doesn't happen over night. It's not as if they set their mind to be negative. The label is a result of reacting to abuse. How many times is someone going to be bullied, before they react?

It has always surprised me that there haven't been more people within the LC who have reacted to the various abuses that take place. My experience has been that the abuses aren't too hard to find. Everyone has their reasons for keeping quiet, and one thing is for certain, LC leaders operate on the assumption that everyone is going to remain silent. When some doesn't, it's a big deal.

The fact of the matter is, as long as there are abusive situations, there will be those who feel pushed to become "negative" towards the LC. As much as leaders would like to label negativity as an "attack of the enemy", it's simply a reaction to situations that should have been resolved. A case and point is what happened with Samuel Liu. Had other leaders stood up to him and removed him from a leadership role, this situation would probably have never been brought up on the internet. It was a problem created by inaction, and allowing abuses to continue in spite of all logic and reason.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

It was a problem created by inaction, and allowing abuses to continue in spite of all logic and reason.

The inaction in Ontario, whether due to James Lee, Walter Ortiz, or Tom Serrati in regard to Samuel Liu, a mountain was created out of a molehill.
Trace back in local church history and you can be certain every turmoil was a result of inaction by brothers.
Instead of being part of the solution, they were part of the problem.

[Freedom]

According to an LC 'tabloid' site (churchnews.info), there is a church in Eastvale (a bit south of Ontario, CA where Samuel Liu is), and this church has recently 'recovered' the practice of "the use of a smartphone as a microphone and bluetooth speaker as a megaphone." I kid you not. I can see Samuel Liu in some of the photos at the link posted below (btw I wonder if he plays any part in the churchnews.info site???) http://churchnews.info/blog/2016/03/...4%9F%E6%8B%85/

What interests me the most is to think that certain 'regional' coworkers (like Samuel Liu), are allowed to run wild and are purposely promoting themselves. Why is this allowed to happen in the realm of the LC? Because the alternative, such as to address what Indiana has written has more severe implications for the blendeds. For now, it's easier for them to let Samuel do what he wants. You can tell by reading the link that the churches associated with him might come across as a bit peculiar (no surprise there).

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

According to an LC 'tabloid' site (churchnews.info), there is a church in Eastvale (a bit south of Ontario, CA where Samuel Liu is), and this church has recently 'recovered' the practice of "the use of a smartphone as a microphone and bluetooth speaker as a megaphone." I kid you not. I can see Samuel Liu in some of the photos at the link posted below (btw I wonder if he plays any part in the churchnews.info site???) http://churchnews.info/blog/2016/03/...4%9F%E6%8B%85/

What interests me the most is to think that certain 'regional' coworkers (like Samuel Liu), are allowed to run wild and are purposely promoting themselves. Why is this allowed to happen in the realm of the LC? Because the alternative, such as to address what Indiana has written has more severe implications for the blendeds. For now, it's easier for them to let Samuel do what he wants. You can tell by reading the link that the churches associated with him might come across as a bit peculiar (no surprise there).

The phrase that caught my attention:

"the burden for increase, a normal rate of growth, the need for planning and statistics, and the pattern of the leading ones."

I'm sure the burden has been there since 1974. As for statistics, it's a topic I find easily manipulated. Plus it is a reminder of the New Way.
Pattern of the leading ones?
The pattern has already been established in Matthew 23.