"God in life and nature but not in the Godhead"

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Also, since Mary is the Mother of Jesus Christ (see e.g. Elizabeth's "And who am I that the mother of my lord should come to me" [Luke 1:43]), and Christ is God, so then Mary is the Mother of God. And since I as a church member am also God (in life and nature but not in the Godhead), then Mary is my Mother, also. Is it not so clear - how can any believer not acknowledge such a clear scriptural word?

What do you mean? They did for centuries. It was called the dark ages.

Everyone was forced to bow down to the statue of Mary the Mother of God!

If not, the alternative was the rack, the sticks, or real waterboarding.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Ohio

What do you mean? They did for centuries. It was called the dark ages.

Everyone was forced to bow down to the statue of Mary the Mother of God!

If not, the alternative was the rack, the sticks, or real waterboarding.

You guys are cracking me up

[JJ]

So, what is the high peak of the divine revelation according to Peter?

First - The following long quotes are from his two epistles (sorry for length, I'm trying make sure context is clear by not chopping them):

1 Peter 1:1-25
"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.
As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look.
Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; because it is written, “YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY.”

If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart, for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.
For,
“ALL FLESH IS LIKE GRASS,
AND ALL ITS GLORY LIKE THE FLOWER OF GRASS.
THE GRASS WITHERS,
AND THE FLOWER FALLS OFF,

BUT THE WORD OF THE LORD ENDURES FOREVER.”
And this is the word which was preached to you.

2 Peter 1:1-20
"Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.
Therefore, I will always be ready to remind you of these things, even though you already know them, and have been established in the truth which is present with you. I consider it right, as long as I am in this earthly dwelling, to stir you up by way of reminder, knowing that the laying aside of my earthly dwelling is imminent, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. And I will also be diligent that at any time after my departure you will be able to call these things to mind.
For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty. For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory, “This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased”— and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.
So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts."

1. Is it that we have been regenerated by imperishable seed?
   
2. Is it that we have become partakers of the divine nature?
   
3. Or is it the our Lord Jesus Christ's majesty?

Usually the last thing someone says before he dies is the most important thing he has to say. Therefore I choose Number 3

[OBW]

It would appear to a reader that just goes through the whole of what you posted that partaking of the divine nature is about the character of those who have partaken. And that character is not simply ours, but must be developed. Otherwise, how would they be "increasing," rather than just facts?

There is reference to godliness and there is no reason that we should presume that this is intended to mean something other than the normal meaning of the word — being in character like God. Not being God, or becoming God, but being like the one that we are "hired" to represent. What are the qualities given? Let's see:

Diligence
Moral excellence
Knowledge
Self-control
Perseverance
Godliness
Brotherly kindness
Love

[JJ]

Originally Posted by OBW

It would appear to a reader that just goes through the whole of what you posted that partaking of the divine nature is about the character of those who have partaken. And that character is not simply ours, but must be developed. Otherwise, how would they be "increasing," rather than just facts?

There is reference to godliness and there is no reason that we should presume that this is intended to mean something other than the normal meaning of the word — being in character like God. Not being God, or becoming God, but being like the one that we are "hired" to represent. What are the qualities given? Let's see:

Diligence
Moral excellence
Knowledge
Self-control
Perseverance
Godliness
Brotherly kindness
Love

Agreed! That's what happens when we don't just chop part out, and add words like "becoming God" to make it our "high peak truth". "Being regenerated of incorruptible seed" doesn't say "We are God in life". "That we might become partakers of the divine nature" doesn't say we are God in nature.

Did Witness Lee ever emphasize the qualities other than godliness in this list? Why not, because that is what godliness looks like.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by JJ

Agreed! That's what happens when we don't just chop part out, and add words like "becoming God" to make it our "high peak truth". "Being regenerated of incorruptible seed" doesn't say "We are God in life". "That we might become partakers of the divine nature" doesn't say we are God in nature.

Did Witness Lee ever emphasize the qualities other than godliness in this list? Why not, because that is what godliness looks like.

For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. 2 Peter 1:4

Appears the key word is may become. It doesn't say will become. Condition appears to be having escaped corruption that is in the world.
Question is, did Lee escape "corruption that is in the world by lust" in order to be a partaker of the divine nature?

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Terry

For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust. 2 Peter 1:4

In the LC, they like to use a certain metaphor when discussing deification: "you are what you eat", and it is often applied to this verse in 2 Peter. All too often silly statements like these are used as "proof" of what Lee taught. My all time favorite is when Lee would pose a rhetorical question in attempt to prove a point, but I digress...

In regards to this verse, I would agree with Terry that escaping the corruption that is in the world by lust might be a more worthy goal than worrying about what become partakers of the divine nature really means. If someone has problems with financial schemes and failed motorhome businesses, the lust of money might be a problem. If that person's sons are accused of immoral behavior, that is also a problem needing addressing. The person in question would have done well to deal with the obvious before making such lofty claims.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by OBW

It would appear to a reader that just goes through the whole of what you posted that partaking of the divine nature is about the character of those who have partaken. And that character is not simply ours, but must be developed. Otherwise, how would they be "increasing," rather than just facts?

There is reference to godliness and there is no reason that we should presume that this is intended to mean something other than the normal meaning of the word — being in character like God. Not being God, or becoming God, but being like the one that we are "hired" to represent. What are the qualities given? Let's see:

Diligence
Moral excellence
Knowledge
Self-control
Perseverance
Godliness
Brotherly kindness
Love

In the local churches, the error we made (and I include myself, because I "bought it") was not realizing that partaking of the divine nature isn't something that we have fully done yet (and won't until Jesus returns). And even when we have, it looks like Jesus, a man willing to drop his Godhood and die for others, be glorified later... and that glorification glorifies God (versus us, because he is the source of it all).

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by JJ

In the local churches, the error we made (and I include myself, because I "bought it") was not realizing that partaking of the divine nature isn't something that we have fully done yet (and won't until Jesus returns). And even when we have, it looks like Jesus, a man willing to drop his Godhood and die for others, be glorified later... and that glorification glorifies God (versus us, because he is the source of it all).

Philippians 2 is a passage that I appreciate very much, and it really demonstrates just how absurd WL’s deification theology really is. Of all people, Jesus was the one person who had every right to go around and promote himself as the “acting God” on earth, but he didn’t do that. As it says, Jesus did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation... This is the Jesus whom the apostle Paul considered himself to be an imitator of.

While LCers are busy trying to become God in life and nature but not the Godhead, they have forgotten about Jesus' example and message. Jesus was willing to take the form of a bondservant. He was self-emptying. He set forth an example of humility. This is the example that we have to follow.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Philippians 2 is a passage that I appreciate very much, and it really demonstrates just how absurd WL’s deification theology really is. Of all people, Jesus was the one person who had every right to go around and promote himself as the “acting God” on earth, but he didn’t do that. As it says, Jesus did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation... This is the Jesus whom the apostle Paul considered himself to be an imitator of.

While LCers are busy trying to become God in life and nature but not the Godhead, they have forgotten about Jesus' example and message. Jesus was willing to take the form of a bondservant. He was self-emptying. He set forth an example of humility. This is the example that we have to follow.

Right. It is interesting that Jesus didn't think his equality with God was a big deal. Rather believing in Him, because his works testify of the Father is the big deal.

Jesus cited verse 6 of this Psalm (82, with verse 6 highlighted by me):

God takes His stand in His own congregation; He judges in the midst of the rulers. How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? Selah.
Vindicate the weak and fatherless; Do justice to the afflicted and destitute. Rescue the weak and needy; Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked. They do not know nor do they understand; They walk about in darkness; All the foundations of the earth are shaken.
I said, “You are gods, and all of you are sons of the Most High. “Nevertheless you will die like men and fall like any one of the princes.”

Now here is the account (John 10:22-39) where He cited it:

At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon. The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.” Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS '? "If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God '? If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.” Therefore they were seeking again to seize Him, and He eluded their grasp.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

While LCers are busy trying to become God in life and nature but not the Godhead, they have forgotten about Jesus' example and message. Jesus was willing to take the form of a bondservant. He was self-emptying. He set forth an example of humility. This is the example that we have to follow.

Now before the Feast of the Passover, Jesus knowing that His hour had come that He would depart out of this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end. 2 During supper, the devil having already put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, to betray Him, 3 Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come forth from God and was going back to God, 4 *got up from supper, and *laid aside His garments; and taking a towel, He girded Himself.
5 Then He *poured water into the basin, and began to wash the disciples’ feet and to wipe them with the towel with which He was girded. 6 So He *came to Simon Peter. He *said to Him, “Lord, do You wash my feet?” 7 Jesus answered and said to him, “What I do you do not realize now, but you will understand hereafter.” 8 Peter *said to Him, “Never shall You wash my feet!” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part with Me.” 9 Simon Peter *said to Him, “Lord, then wash not only my feet, but also my hands and my head.” 10 Jesus *said to him, “He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you.” 11 For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, “Not all of you are clean.”
12 So when He had washed their feet, and taken His garments and reclined at the table again, He said to them, “Do you know what I have done to you? 13 You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for so I am. 14 If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet. 15 For I gave you an example that you also should do as I did to you. 16 Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him. 17 If you know these things, you are blessed if you do them.

Reading Freedom's post I thought of John 13: 1-17. Here Jesus sets a pattern of serving unconditionally through foot washing. Even the one he knew who was about to betray him.