My Testimony

[New Beginnings]

Thank you everyone. All your responses were wonderful and helpful.

NewManLiving, your response was especially helpful. I think that I am still haunted by the accusations that I must not love Jesus because I am not doing X, Y, and Z. I may not have been displeasing the Lord by not reading my HWFMR or not attending enough meetings and conferences, but there were some truths in those accusations. I wasn't reading the word or meeting with Christians regularly. I couldn't see the truth amidst the lies. Religion had lost all appeal, and I really didn't believe any other group of Christians would be any different. I was certainly lost but that could never nullify my need and desire for my Savoir.

Is there any profit in legalism? Is there a Christian standard of living that must be met? Is there a measure of Christ that must be attained? Or does the Lord change our hearts to desire meeting all these requirements.

Thank you all for hearing me and I apologize for going in circles...again.

[NewManLiving]

I believe that He just desires us to love Him and believe Him. Sometimes that is not so easy especially when everything seems to be going wrong. He looks at our heart and not our mistakes. David made a lot of serious mistakes but the Lord was more concerned about his heart. The fact that we feel remorse when we think we are not pleasing to Him really means that we love Him. Otherwise we would not care or feel any remorse. He does test our faith, but not like we think. He is not looking to see if we make mistakes but if at the end of the day we could still say: Lord I love you with all my heart, even though my imperfect heart often fails you. Have no doubt about it - He is quite able to complete the work He began in you.

The book of Hebrews is always a big help to me. It shocked me to see that He learned obedience through the things that He suffered. I could never imagine why the Lord needed to learn obedience. He was also tempted in all things like us - incredible! He is able to sympathize with our weakness because He felt that same weakness pierce His body to the core. We have such a High Priest that is seated at the right hand of the Father. He intercedes for us constantly! And He is able to save us to the uttermost! He became just like us in every way except without sin. When you talk to Him He knows exactly how you feel. So take cheer and be at peace. If God is for us who or what can possibly be against us!

[aron]

Originally Posted by New Beginnings

Is there any profit in legalism?

I say, absolutely. Jesus met the standard. He alone is legal; we are all "illegals" who don't belong in God's kingdom. We the rebellious were expelled, but God loved us so much that He sent His only begotten Son. Hear Him, and live.

Now, what is Jesus' legalism, towards us? "Obey my commandments, just as I obeyed the Father". Gulp.

Of course we remain pathetic failures (on God's terms, not ours). What to do? 1. Struggle, try, try, try... the Holy Spirit will see us, and come alongside and help us in our weakness(es). This is not law but grace, the grace of God coming alongside (the paraclete) to help us in our weakness. But we have to try, to receive grace.

2. Forgive others for their failures, and God will forgive yours. Period. It is a statement of fact. Do it and you will be on the right side of the ledger.

.................................................. .......

As mentioned previously, holiness and sanctification are linked by the same root structure: sanctification is to become holy, like God.

And the way to do this, from what I see, is to see God's holiness. We simultaneously see what God is, and what we are not. This opens the way for grace. John the disciple, who'd been with Jesus for 3+ years, seen the Pentecost, seen the church age form, seen Paul come and go, seen so much... when he saw the Holy One of God ministering before the throne, The Sanctified High Priest in the midst of the seven burning lampstands, he fell down as dead. He simultaneously saw reality of God, and saw the lack of man. This dissolution of (John's) self created the matrix to form the new man. The word is the vehicle to suggest the Holy Spirit's arrival, the 'parousia'. And the Spirit says, "Take off your shoes, for you are standing on holy ground". The angel of the presence brings the presence. The messenger conveys the message: God is holy.

Anyway, I ramble incoherently here. Just thinking aloud.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

I say, absolutely. Jesus met the standard. He alone is legal; we are all "illegals" who don't belong in God's kingdom. We the rebellious were expelled, but God loved us so much that He sent His only begotten Son. Hear Him, and live.

Now, what is Jesus' legalism, towards us? "Obey my commandments, just as I obeyed the Father".

2. Forgive others for their failures, and God will forgive yours. Period.

Great points! You could say that these are the great commands: Love God (he who loves Me will keep My word) and love your neighbor (starts with forgiveness.)

Holiness, like distorted oneness, has been all twisted up by God's enemy. So much fleshly work is done under the guise of holiness. Around here the Amish system supposedly made them "holy." But look at all the contradictions -- Land lines bad, cell phones good. Electric service bad, gas powered refridgerator and washing machine good. Cars bad, Uber driver good. Natural gas pipe bad, propane tank good.

Legalism and legalistic sects operate by fear, not by love and forgiveness. They have created systems of spies and sleeper cells which get activated by religious zealots. Their program pleases man, but not God. They live by the seen, not by the unseen, walking by sight, not by faith. Their systems of sanctification always have clearly identifiable checklists in order to monitor the progress of the "faithful."

Now don"t get me wrong, I have a lot of love and respect for Amish people. They have to make a living too. But let's not think that God is pleased with navy slacks that do not have "worldly" zippers. God is pleased with His Son, and He has told us so plainly, even with an audible voice, "hear Him."

[JJ]

Right on, brothers! I've been enjoying the responses to New Beginnings' question about what sanctification looks like. Legalism looks like the Pharisees..... adding rules that aren't in scripture to place burdens on others they can't bear themselves, and missing the heart of God....which is to see God Himself in Christ, repent of our absolute unholiness, then place our lives in His hands to work out His holiness as we live "ordinary" human lives filled with His Holy Spirit.

[New Beginnings]

Thank you all again, those were wonderful responses.

I experienced grace and countless blessings today, I really appreciate you all helping me get into the right frame of mind.

Originally Posted by aron

This dissolution of (John's) self created the matrix to form the new man.

I can visualize this. My hideous self dissolving in a flowing steam of living water. It is a refreshing thought.

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

I believe that He just desires us to love Him and believe Him. Sometimes that is not so easy especially when everything seems to be going wrong. He looks at our heart and not our mistakes.

We had a guest pastor at my little co-op this morning. His message sounded something like the above quote. The Lord doesn't look at our mistakes.

The pastor used Psalm 1 for the scripture and he gave a sweet little analogy of a tree and all the care required from the gardener for the tree to flourish. The tree itself cannot flourish from its own efforts.

Have a lovely weekend and thank you again!

[New Beginnings]

One significant roadblock I have met again and again in my past attempts to get my family out of the LC deals with feeling the spirit. Some have said to me that the LC is the only place they have felt the spirit, or that their feelings confirm the presence and oneness of spirit within the group. It appears that this is still a stumbling block for us as we are finally departing.

Now I personally have always been skeptical about this. Initially coming into the LC, it looked attractive. So I tried it on for size and it did not fit. As much as I hate to admit this here, I can only recall two instances where I was in spirit by definition of being in an elated emotional state during a meeting. One of these instances was my LC baptism (my second baptism.)

Now my experiences of the spirit include private feelings of conviction or empowerment. I have felt comfort in my sufferings in solitude. I have felt love and encouragement in more intimate exchanges with other believers. But public displays of affection for my Lord have always felt awkward.

I had an interesting experience recently. I went to a memorial service, which clearly is an emotionally charged atmosphere in itself. The service was a Messianic Jewish service which was a new experience for me. I found it quite lovely and moving. I felt the spirit comforting us in our grief and as we praised the Lord, I felt joy for our dear brother who has left this world to be with the Lord. I feel like it is in these circumstances, where we share in each other’s grief and loss, where the spirit comes in and unites us. However, my LC family, who also attended the service, did not see it that way. There was bountiful criticism unleashed during the drive home.

It is my nature to shy away from charismatic groups. I haven’t found any evidence that these emotional experiences are in any way a confirmation of my salvation. I see the unity of spirit to be a bond of love, humility, gentleness and patience between believers on a personal level. But, in case I’m missing something, is there any reason I should question my conclusion? Is there any evidence that there needs to be a corporate emotional response to the Lord?

Thank you.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by New Beginnings

I see the unity of spirit to be a bond of love, humility, gentleness and patience between believers on a personal level.

I believe it should be as I quoted. Problem is in the local churches I just haven't seen love and humility towards non-LSM/LC Christians.
In my post-LC experiences, where a believer chooses to meet is irrelevant in matters of "love, humility, gentleness and patience between believers". One could stop meeting with one church in favor of another, but it doesn't become a condition in receiving one another.

[Ohio]

New Beginnings, like your LC family, I too was "trained" to critique all other Christian gatherings, and only sense the Lord when we met together. This indoctrination is, of course, self-fulfilling. I was programmed to condemn outsiders, and to only love insiders, and so that's what I did, thus "proving" that what I was taught about the LC was "true."

I had many, many so-called charismatic corporate experiences of the Lord in the meetings, especially in those early days, not tongue-speaking, but definitely "feeling" the Spirit. Some were very real, and some were probably manufactured, and some were just "fun" times with the saints. I also, however, felt the deadness, dryness, boredom, depression, etc. sitting in the meetings, especially as the years wore on. I went to many Anaheim trainings during the 90's, and I just took notes to keep from falling asleep. Eventually, I felt the same way towards the Cleveland regional gatherings.

The healthiest experiences, I now believe, are personal with the Lord. Unfortunately, the faith of many of the LC'ers is tied to their meetings. That is why they are so devastated when passing thru their regular "storms." Personal experiences of the Lord are definitely the healthiest. They are "portable." They can occur in any location. Just you and Jesus.

I remember right after I got saved, I went to a friend's Catholic wedding and wanted to receive communion during the Mass. I was filled in the Spirit with the Lord. It was wonderful. The Lord felt so near to me. A few months later I came to the LC and slowly got filled with "Catholic hate," and now I could never have that experience again at Mass.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by New Beginnings

One significant roadblock I have met again and again in my past attempts to get my family out of the LC deals with feeling the spirit. Some have said to me that the LC is the only place they have felt the spirit, or that their feelings confirm the presence and oneness of spirit within the group. It appears that this is still a stumbling block for us as we are finally departing.

For your husband to be willing to depart, his conscience must have been bothered for some time. Just because someone has a truthful yet negative account of the local churches, even if believed wouldn't be enough for a brother be willing to leave.
"Feeling the Spirit" appears to be an emotional response to some of the local church practices. I have firmly believed a brother or sister can be in spirit silently. They don't need to be loud and verbally expressive in order to be seen as "one in their spirit".