Deputy Authority and the Ground of Oneness

[Freedom]

There is nothing wrong with a group of Christians having a purposeful attitude towards a particular ministry. That is not uncommon at all. I think that WL's intention was to lead everyone to believe that the same kind of 'safe' association existed between the local churches and his ministry. All the while, he subtly stressed the need for everyone to align themselves to his ministry and follow him completely.

In his letter, WL states the following:
"Being one with the ministry is a crucial matter, and its effects are exceedingly serious. Its proper definition is not to follow any man, any doctrine or any movement, but is to be one with the Lord’s move today according to the Lord’s vision, without any intrinsic element of exalting any person or promoting any work"

In Seer of the Divine Revelation in the Present Age, WL says this about his following Nee:
"I feel no shame whatsoever in saying that I followed a man..."

In the first quote, WL can be quoted as saying that no one should be following a man. In the second, he is basically bragging about his following of Nee. Which statement are we to believe? He said one thing, and insisted that everyone practice something different. It is no wonder JI and others retracted their signatures.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Freedom

There is nothing wrong with a group of Christians having a purposeful attitude towards a particular ministry. That is not uncommon at all. I think that WL's intention was to lead everyone to believe that the same kind of 'safe' association existed between the local churches and his ministry. All the while, he subtly stressed the need for everyone to align themselves to his ministry and follow him completely.

In his letter, WL states the following:
"Being one with the ministry is a crucial matter, and its effects are exceedingly serious. Its proper definition is not to follow any man, any doctrine or any movement, but is to be one with the Lord’s move today according to the Lord’s vision, without any intrinsic element of exalting any person or promoting any work"

In Seer of the Divine Revelation in the Present Age, WL says this about his following Nee:

"I feel no shame whatsoever in saying that I followed a man..."

In the first quote, WL can be quoted as saying that no one should be following a man. In the second, he is basically bragging about his following of Nee. Which statement are we to believe? He said one thing, and insisted that everyone practice something different. It is no wonder JI and others retracted their signatures.

The apostle Paul was a man and did encourage others to take him as a pattern - in his conduct and pursuit of Christ, but not in the way of following him in a world-wide movement that would uplift him, promote his work, and produce a system of cookie-cutter churches.

But there has been such a movement in the Local Churches, which began in 1984 in Taiwan and became accelerated in the U. S. in 1986, with the help of the future blending brothers - who maintain the system today.

Senior Co-Workers Express their Concerns

Co-workers from Taiwan were among those with grave concerns about the movement.

John Ingalls shares,

"Brother Chu Shun Min then told me how that on April 1, 1988, he had a conversation with Brother Lee in the Bay Area. He presented a number of serious concerns to Brother Lee and asked him to bring all these things to the Lord. Brother Chu told me that Brother Lee listened quietly and passively to all his points (with one exception), making no comment, neither admitting nor denying. The exception was a point he made concerning Brother Lee’s son, Philip Lee. In conclusion, Brother Chu told Brother Lee, “All the sweet feeling we had in the past is lost. All the rest in our spirit is over.

“I will mention just a few more comments made by Brother Chu Shun Min. He said that he feels very sorry for the present state of things -- he gave his whole life to this. He has received letters from elderly ones in Taipei that are full of blood and tears. There are very few elderly ones there who are not discouraged or withdrawn. The warfare now is fiercer than in Watchman Nee’s day when the issue was that of leaving the denominations. We are at a critical juncture. We cannot be silent regarding the change of nature in the Lord’s recovery. We should have no part in it. This is a day for further recovery. We need a new beginning to recover us back from the change of nature to the Lord’s original intention. We must discard all the changes of nature. The main direction is to come out of the system; it cannot change." _Speaking the Truth in Love, John Ingalls

Phil. 3:17 Be imitators together of me, brothers, and observe those who thus walk even as you have us as a pattern.

vv leading to that verse
12 Not that I have already obtained or am already perfected, but I pursue, if even I may lay hold of that for which I also have been laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

13 Brothers, I do not account of myself to have laid hold; but one thing I do: Forgetting the things which are behind and stretching forward to the things which are before,

14 I pursue toward the goal for the prize to which God in Christ Jesus has called me upward.

15 Let us therefore, as many as are full-grown, have this mind; and if in anything you are otherwise minded, this also God will reveal to you.

16 Nevertheless whereunto we have attained, by the same rule let us walk.

17 Be imitators together of me, brothers, and observe those who thus walk even as you have us as a pattern.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Paul was a man who did encourage taking him as a pattern in his conduct and pursuit of Christ - but not that others would take him in a way of following him in a world-wide movement that would lift him up, promote his work, and produce a system of cookie-cutter churches, featuring him and his ministry.

It seems that WL might have viewed his own following of Nee as being anecdotal for how the churches should follow him and his ministry.

I would go so far as to say that there were a few junctures where WL's following of WN was particularly unwise, such as after the pharmaceutical company failure.

It seems that the little flock churches in China were able to function in Nee's absence, so to me, that implies that WL was a bit confused in the matter of following Nee. It seems WL's whole goal in China after Nee was excommunicated was to help "recover" the churches to Nee's ministry.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

It seems WL's whole goal in China after Nee was excommunicated was to help "recover" the churches to Nee's ministry.

Nee the untouchable MOTA became the template for Lee the untouchable MOTA.

And look at his method: Lee asked the Shanghai elders, "How did you feel, after you ex-communicated Nee?" It wasn't about righteousness, or truth, but about feelings. Nee's subjectivist "experience trumps all" was used against the church; they felt bad when they rejected Nee, therefore Lee had power over them.

"How did you feel when your God died?" Instead of realizing they worshipped a false God (the Little Flock with Nee as unquestioned champion), they were brought back, through their feelings of remorse, into bondage again. This is what happens when truth no longer directs the path.

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by aron

Nee the untouchable MOTA [Minister of the Age] became the template for Lee the untouchable MOTA.

And look at his method: Lee asked the Shanghai elders, "How did you feel, after you ex-communicated Nee?" It wasn't about righteousness, or truth, but about feelings. Nee's subjectivist "experience trumps all" was used against the church; they felt bad when they rejected Nee, therefore Lee had power over them...."This is what happens when truth no longer directs the path.

In the Elders’ Training brother Lee mentioned that men of God have had defects in church history and he gave examples, but did not include Watchman Nee or himself.

Watchman Nee
I knew nothing negative about Watchman Nee until last year, 2014. I think that book by Lily Hsu was available on the forum in 2012, but I passed right over it not wanting to waste time with someone’s superficial findings and public story of a supposed dark side of brother Nee. I completely held the concept that many others held that he was a model God-man whose example in conduct and pursuit of Christ we could follow.

But the book was not superficial, as 10 endorsees record in its first pages.

ENDORSEMENT “King David is a special person loved by God. Besides our Lord Jesus Christ, the New Testament started with the name of David and finishes with the name of David. However, even such a special person like David, the Bible did not cover up his committed sins whatsoever. In addition, the price he paid for his sins was huge. He committed his sins in darkness. God humiliated him in broad daylight.” - Tiejun Xia Lay preacher, Ashburton Uniting Church, Melbourne, Australia

Learning the lessons from the history and holding the truth in love (Eph. 4:15) for the unity of the church are what we Christians ought to do. Our entire ministry is pursuing for God’s kingdom and His righteousness. (Matt 6:33.) _ Minister of a Local Church, Mainland China

I read the book and consider it pointing to “half” the story of Local Church history, which I knew nothing about. I think that exposure of the defects bring matters into the proper light, where mercy and grace can be properly ministered, according to truth alone.

The other "half" of Local Church history involves Witness Lee.

Witness Lee
One manifestation of the defective side of brother Lee is addressed transparently by Don Hardy (2001) “…Anyway SC [Samuel Chang] was VERY burdened, and started groaning deep within, praying (Steve, I did NOT know my spirit at that time, except hit n' miss). Then he said: "Don, I want to share something with you for prayer, and you must keep it to yourself. Bro.Lee LOVES the Lord, and is ALL-out for God and His recovery. BUT Don, he has a weakness, a big hole in his side, which we have to keep covered much in prayer: you see, his CHILDREN (7 of them) suffered very much in CHINA, and they are "always after him"; and he has a burden to HELP them as much as he can. But WL is very POOR right now. So he has tried to help Timothy in business, BUT....."
Then SC did a "strange" thing: he slapped his mouth with his hand and told me: "Oh, I SHOULD KEEP QUIET!! Forgive me bro. Don!" Just pray. Let's go back to the hymnal." Well Steve, I NEVER forgot that conversation...”


Before coming to U. S.

“Around 1959 Mr. Lee had some investment failures and he lost a great deal of money. This brought the first financial crisis to the church. All the donations and contributions from the church members were used, and still the church owed people a large amount of money. Because of this situation, Brother Lee forced the elders to sell a piece of land belonging to the church in order to pay the debt. That piece of land was located on 19 East Road, section 4, and had been bought by the church to build a training center and a new assembly building. Because of that, many coworkers and church members were especially unhappy about this fiasco. Mr. Lee knew this was something that he did wrong and because of that he went to the United States and stayed on the West Coast. “(Larry Chi, translated into English by a paid translator)

These two "windows" were early-on portends of the future, when many saints and churches were seriously impacted:

Brent Barber gives more insight into the problem of Witness Lee and his money-making schemes that caused much suffering to the churches and the saints. (Deviating from the Path, Balaam p 87).

LSM does not give true accounts of this sort, but "This is what happens when truth no longer directs the path", as Aron announced in post #50, regarding Lee's handling of the elders during Nee's suspension.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Indiana

The apostle Paul was a man and did encourage others to take him as a pattern - in his conduct and pursuit of Christ, but not in the way of following him in a world-wide movement that would uplift him, promote his work, and produce a system of cookie-cutter churches.
But there has been such a movement in the Local Churches, which began in 1984 in Taiwan and became accelerated in the U. S. in 1986, with the help of the future blending brothers - who maintain the system today.

Steve, your right about the first part (about uplifting a man, promoting his work and producing a system of cookie-cutter churches, and you're certainly correct about the blending brothers maintaining this system today. However, you're off about 30 years on your assessment of when this all began. By the Mid 1950s, with Watchman Nee secured away in a Communist prison, Witness Lee had FULL CONTROL within the Local Church Movement, and ruled with an iron fist.

Lee was already hiring and firing elders and coworkers at his personal whim. He was already using quarantining and shunning as a method of taking and maintaining full control of the Movement. He was also already engaged in financial malfeasance, selling church property to pay off personal business debts. More than one major division in the Far East took place over Lee's behavior, and all this took place LONG BEFORE Lee decided to grace our fair shores with his so-called Lord's Recovery movement. And as a matter of fact, we now know the real reason(s) Witness Lee came to North America - it was to escape responsibility for all the financial and spiritual malfeasance committed by his sons and him in the Far East.

Of course, with only a handful of followers in America, Lee was forced to play his hand a little slow at first. He had to build up trust among the Americans before he could pull out the iron fist. But make no mistake, the iron fist was there all along in his pocket, just waiting for the right time. Some of the brothers got a small taste of the fist in the 60s (mostly Taiwan followers again), then in the 70s with the Max Rapoport debacle, and then Lee brought out the iron fist in full force in the mid to late 1980s. By then he could shamelessly declare "Lee, Lee, Lee! Lee has to get the credit! Lee has to be famous!" (paraph) "I invented this term 'enjoying Christ'!" By the time most longtime followers like John Ingalls, Bill Malon and John So were snapped out of their stupor, it was far, far too late. They even consulted some older brothers in Taiwan and found out that this was NOT Lee's first time at using his iron fist. (Shame on these brothers for not doing their due diligence, for with just the most basic of inquires to those who knew Lee's sordid past, much heartache and spiritual damage could have been avoided)

But here we are, decades later, and the Blended Brothers are trying to pretend like they can simply erase history, or better yet just twist and edit it to make Witness Lee out to be "the one minister with the one ministry for the age". Just an innocent little Chinese man that was misunderstood by Christian apologists and attacked and betrayed by some evil, ambitious, jealous followers.

"For nothing is hidden that will not be made manifest, nor is anything secret that will not be known and come to light. Take care then how you hear, for to the one who has, more will be given, and from the one who has not, even what he thinks that he has will be taken away.” Luke 8:17,18

[Freedom]

The relationship is this - the churches should always help the work and cooperate with the work to promote God's work, and the work should try the best to always strengthen the churches, edify the churches, establish the churches, and build up the churches for the building up of the Body of Christ. Thus, the churches and the work should be very much in cooperation and coordination with each other. This is why we say that the churches should be one with the ministry...

I brought the recovery to the United States, and you received it. You are the result of my work. Should I not expect that you all would be one with me, cooperating with me to promote the Lord's recovery? What is wrong with this?

Witness Lee, The Eldership and the God-Ordained Way, Volume 1, pg. 86

The above quote is a vindictive word that WL gave about the relationship of the churches with his ministry. I notice that he begins by saying that "the work" should be there to help the churches. He also says that the churches and work should be in cooperation with each other. As WL describes it initially, there is nothing immediately concerning about this kind of relationship, that is the idea of churches and work cooperating for a common interest.

The degree of "cooperation" is where things get sticky. WL makes no hesitation in implying that there should be a significant amount of cooperation between the churches and the ministry ("one with the ministry"). The reality of the situation is that the churches should have no obligation to be "one with the ministry", especially if they weren't finding his ministry to be helpful. Even if there were churches who found his ministry to be particular helpful, the cooperation didn't need to be the degree of "one with the ministry". Supporting the ministry or working together is completely sufficient.

At the end of this quote, WL instills a sense of guilt, saying that his ministry is what started "the recovery" so everyone needs to remain "one" with him. He even asks the question: "what is wrong with this?"

There are a few things wrong with this. Firstly, in the accounts of LC history that I have read, the brothers in Los Angeles planned to start meeting irrespective of what WL was doing. As I understand it, WL decided to stay in the U.S. after the decision had been made. So WL cannot take complete credit for bringing "the recovery to the United States". While it's true that much of what happened afterwards can be attributed to his work, WL seemed to operate on the assumption that because people appreciated his ministry, they needed to remain "one" with him.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

But here we are, decades later, and the Blended Brothers are trying to pretend like they can simply erase history, or better yet just twist and edit it to make Witness Lee out to be "the one minister with the one ministry for the age". Just an innocent little Chinese man that was misunderstood by Christian apologists and attacked and betrayed by some evil, ambitious, jealous followers. [/COLOR]

"For nothing is hidden that will not be made manifest, nor is anything secret that will not be known and come to light. Take care then how you hear, for to the one who has, more will be given, and from the one who has not, even what he thinks that he has will be taken away.” Luke 8:17,18

For the blended brothers, it's a self-serving type of historical revisionism. In the late 80's when the current blended brothers could have been part of the solution, instead they were part of the problem. Call the blendeds a type of Balaam or a type of wolves in sheep's clothing, make up your own mind.