Doug Krieger testimony

[Dave]

Originally Posted by aron

MY EXPERIENCE IN THE LOCAL CHURCH
By
Doug Krieger

Here we were very active (by this time I had two children - now 3) - We established contacts throughout the Bay Area (especially San Jose) - and also had many contacts with Santa Cruz - I was in the military in the Monterey Bay area and had established the beginnings of what became known as the Church in Santa Cruz which grew to nearly 200 (mostly young people) but who were then pressured into leaving San Cruz because of one Carl Hammond and Paul Ma who were, at the time, considered "of the enemy" - the church is still there, however, but a shadow of its former self.

I was in Santa Cruz in the very beginning and I never met or saw Doug Krieger. His statement is pure nonsense. While I was attending Bethany Bible College near Santa Cruz I met Karl Hammond in the spring of 1969 and started meeting with him and his wife the next morning for prayer at his apartment with another couple he had just brought to the Lord. That was the beginning of the LC in Santa Cruz and I was involved in building up S.C. until I left in the summer of 1971 upon the request of WL for me to migrate to Detroit because I had brought numerous relatives in Detroit into the LC. I had heard of Krieger but not in relation to the church in S.C.

[OBW]

Isn't this a testimony that was posted some years back? One that had a view of certain parts of California that we generally had no insight into. And therefore no way to verify or refute. He may have been everything he says, but it is so over the top in some ways that it is difficult to process as not at least a little bit of self-aggrandizement. I do want to believe it because it seems a little bit like a Forrest Gump story — true stories collected together and made to reside in one person's history. Just too much in one place to be taken seriously — at least without some corroboration. And because of that, hard to accept as entirely true.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

Isn't this a testimony that was posted some years back? One that had a view of certain parts of California that we generally had no insight into. And therefore no way to verify or refute. He may have been everything he says, but it is so over the top in some ways that it is difficult to process as not at least a little bit of self-aggrandizement. I do want to believe it because it seems a little bit like a Forrest Gump story — true stories collected together and made to reside in one person's history. Just too much in one place to be taken seriously — at least without some corroboration. And because of that, hard to accept as entirely true.

Well said, OBW.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

Isn't this a testimony that was posted some years back? One that had a view of certain parts of California that we generally had no insight into. And therefore no way to verify or refute. He may have been everything he says, but it is so over the top in some ways that it is difficult to process as not at least a little bit of self-aggrandizement. I do want to believe it because it seems a little bit like a Forrest Gump story — true stories collected together and made to reside in one person's history. Just too much in one place to be taken seriously — at least without some corroboration. And because of that, hard to accept as entirely true.

This was also my gripe with the Lily Hsu testimony of WWII-era mainland China. How much of it could be independently corroborated? How much was perhaps manipulated or misremembered history in order to cast things in the best light for the tale-teller?

Originally Posted by Dave

I was in Santa Cruz in the very beginning and I never met or saw Doug Krieger. His statement is pure nonsense.

Krieger's testimony (and Hsu's) probably should be held at arms' length until matched by independently verifiable info. And that is not easy... La Cosa Nostra has nothing on the LCM - it's "omerta" all the way to the grave. Silence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omert%C3%A0

Omertà is an extreme form of loyalty and solidarity in the face of [external or outside] authority. One of its absolute tenets is that it is deeply demeaning and shameful to betray even one's deadliest enemy to the authorities. For this reason, many Mafia-related crimes go unsolved. Observers of the Mafia debate whether omertà should best be understood as an expression of social consensus surrounding the Mafia or whether it is instead a pragmatic response based primarily on fear, as implied by a popular Sicilian proverb Cu è surdu, orbu e taci, campa cent'anni 'mpaci ("He who is deaf, blind, and silent will live a hundred years in peace")..

A testimony may be useful if it can be seen in relation to what little we do know. (And I say this with Lily Hsu as well).

[OBW]

Originally Posted by aron

This was also my gripe with the Lily Hsu testimony of WWII-era mainland China. How much of it could be independently corroborated? How much was perhaps manipulated or misremembered history in order to cast things in the best light for the tale-teller?

While I understand the concerns with Lily Hsu's testimony, I do not see these as the same kind of thing. Hsu is writing from personal observations and those of others, and has acknowledged them as such. There does not appear to be the inference that the world was revolving around Hsu. That does not make her story more true, but more palatable.

And palatable is not the end-all of anything. And while it is possible that everything Krieger has accounted is actually true, plausibility is stretched to the max. On the other hand, while the story Hsu told was at first hard to believe, it has since been seen as making much more sense that Lee's almost clearly fabricated tale about Nee's living with his mother or aunt as being the cause of excommunication. Is everything about Hsu's account 100% accurate? Have all of the sources been entirely honest? Hard to say. But the world wasn't revolving around them.

Meanwhile, it would seem that there is a difference of opinion concerning activity in Santa Cruz, with one participant there having never heard of Krieger. Makes for a more difficult sell.

And makes me wonder if it is worse than some of us (like me at times) at tying everything to Lee and the LCM and just going off on it. There was another who wrote like this on the other forum years ago. Parts of his were very believable. But some parts were difficult because, once again, everything seemed to revolve around him. He stood up to everyone and no one stood up to him. And he got away with it. At least he says so.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

This was also my gripe with the Lily Hsu testimony of WWII-era mainland China. How much of it could be independently corroborated? How much was perhaps manipulated or misremembered history in order to cast things in the best light for the tale-teller?

In the vacuum of credible history, Hsu provided a counter to Lee's fairy tales about Nee. Perhaps she was not completely verifiable, but she was definitely more believable.

It was kind of like reading Ingall's account after believing for a quarter century only what Lee told us. There was a huge vacuum with ugly inside, and we were forced to canonize Lee instead of knowing any facts.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

In the vacuum of credible history, Hsu provided a counter to Lee's fairy tales about Nee. Perhaps she was not completely verifiable, but she was definitely more believable...

I agree. More believable. But absent independent verification, not completely so. It still has the asterisk, with "waiting for corroboration" next to it. And the more fanciful the tale, as Krieger's seems to be, the bigger the asterisk.

Still I'm glad I posted it. I had read it years ago, when there was no one like Dave around to say, "Not so fast". So it was worth the effort in updating.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by OBW

Isn't this a testimony that was posted some years back? One that had a view of certain parts of California that we generally had no insight into. And therefore no way to verify or refute. He may have been everything he says, but it is so over the top in some ways that it is difficult to process as not at least a little bit of self-aggrandizement. I do want to believe it because it seems a little bit like a Forrest Gump story — true stories collected together and made to reside in one person's history. Just too much in one place to be taken seriously — at least without some corroboration. And because of that, hard to accept as entirely true.

Talk about over the top. Here is Doug Krieger's website which he shares with McGriff: http://www.the-tribulation-network.com/ -- it is listed in the article quoted below although it appears that it hasn't been updated for a couple years. Someone is paying the bills to maintain the domain and website space. Looks like a couple hundred articles many of them written by Krieger as well as several books written by Krieger.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Dave

Talk about over the top. Here is Doug Krieger's website which he shares with McGriff: http://www.the-tribulation-network.com/ -- it is listed in the article quoted below although it appears that it hasn't been updated for a couple years. Someone is paying the bills to maintain the domain and website space. Looks like a couple hundred articles many of them written by Krieger as well as several books written by Krieger.

Sorry to say but bro Doug strikes me as someone really sold on himself. And that conveniently plugged right into Witness Lee's mentality.

Megalomania meet megalomania.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Dave

Talk about over the top. Here is Doug Krieger's website which he shares with McGriff: http://www.the-tribulation-network.com/ -- it is listed in the article quoted below although it appears that it hasn't been updated for a couple years. Someone is paying the bills to maintain the domain and website space. Looks like a couple hundred articles many of them written by Krieger as well as several books written by Krieger.

So Dave, you never ran into Doug Krieger during your days in Santa Cruz? Weren't you there during at least part of the time he says that he was very active there?

[Dave]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

So Dave, you never ran into Doug Krieger during your days in Santa Cruz? Weren't you there during at least part of the time he says that he was very active there?

I was there at the very beginning in early spring 1969. Karl Hammond was living temporarily in an apartment with his wife and had only been in SC a short time. There were only 5 of us meeting every morning at his apartment: Karl, Helen (his wife), a couple of hippies who Karl had just brought to the Lord (John and Pat Wagner) and myself (my wife joined us later). Karl later purchased a home where we continued to meet and Paul Ma later moved to SC and bought a home a couple houses down from Karl. I remember having an out of this world several course Chinese dinner at Paul Ma's home one evening. In 1971 we started building a place to meet on Doyle street since we had grown to about 125. WL came to SC in 1970 and I had dinner with him, my wife and Karl's daughter and her husband (Bob and Annie Griffith) at his daughter's home since they had moved to SC as well.

I left in the summer of 1971 to Detroit as part of a migration. I knew Karl very well and he had mixed emotions about WL asking me to move to Detroit but thought that it might be a sign that WL was giving him some recognition to his efforts in SC. Karl always knew he was kind of a renegade but wanted some level of acceptance from Lee.

During this entire time of over two years I never met Doug Krieger nor even heard of him. I was actively involved in the growth of SC while I was there (1969-1971) attending the university in SC. Dave Becker, his wife Jill and Dennis Lawrence and his wife Dee accepted the Lord and were baptized in the Atlantic Ocean in SC in late 1969 and sometime after I left for Detroit in July 1971 became the elders in the SC church.

Doug does not say what specific years he was in SC but indicates that he was responsible for its initial growth which is pure nonsense as I indicated earlier. Of course, awareness was in SC in 1971 but I doubt he remembers anyone named Krieger. I have a service group list from Jan 1971 in SC of 15 groups and Krieger is not mentioned. His story is a fabrication.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Dave

I was there at the very beginning in early spring 1969. Karl Hammond was living temporarily in an apartment with his wife and had only been in SC a short time. ..... I have a service group list from Jan 1971 in SC of 15 groups and Krieger is not mentioned. His story is a fabrication.

I would say, not so fast. First, Krieger says he was in the California LCs 1964 to 1968, then went into the Army where he served in Germany and met and worked with John So. If you (Dave) came into the LC in 1969, it's possible that he would have been gone by that time. You simply didn't cross paths.

Originally Posted by Doug Krieger

I was perhaps the first "immigrant" local American young person to come to L.A. where in late 1963 I enrolled at a local junior college and then state university - but attended the beginnings of the L.C. from 1964 through June 1968 when I was drafted into military service during the Viet Nam Era.

I was in the LCs for years and never once heard the word "Daystar", until it was written on these forums. I didn't even know who John Ingalls was! I came in right after the Philip Lee "storm" and Ingalls was gone, erased with no trace except for a few RecVs and hymnals. So not hearing of someone in the LC is not indicative of their non-existence. A LOT of stuff isn't heard in the LCs. A LOT of names are not mentioned.

Second, Krieger in the written testimony says he's 70 years old, and says he left when he was 33. So recollecting experiences 37+ years later will be spotty at best. Yesterday I was telling someone of a skit on television from the 1970s, and looked it up on YouTube to show him. Turns out I half-remembered it. Some of the actors that I thought were in the skit were in another, similar one. My memory had merged two separate but similar events.

So if Krieger gives this Forrest Gumpish tale decades later it doesn't mean that its pure hogwash. Nonetheless, when someone like Dave can't corroborate any of it, we should also take that into consideration.

But I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand as pure fabrication, either.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Second, Krieger in the written testimony says he's 70 years old, and says he left when he was 33. So recollecting experiences 37+ years later will be spotty at best. Yesterday I was telling someone of a skit on television from the 1970s, and looked it up on YouTube to show him. Turns out I half-remembered it. Some of the actors that I thought were in the skit were in another, similar one. My memory had merged two separate but similar events.

So if Krieger gives this Forrest Gumpish tale decades later it doesn't mean that its pure hogwash. Nonetheless, when someone like Dave can't corroborate any of it, we should also take that into consideration.

But I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand as pure fabrication, either.

Look what happened to Brian Williams of NBC who merely embellished a few war stories as time went on. I suppose we reserve the right to "mis-remember" past events only for those in some "White" house.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by aron

I would say, not so fast. First, Krieger says he was in the California LCs 1964 to 1968, then went into the Army where he served in Germany and met and worked with John So. If you (Dave) came into the LC in 1969, it's possible that he would have been gone by that time. You simply didn't cross paths.

I would agree with you except there was no LC in SC until Karl Hammond showed up in early 1969. I can appreciate the fact that it was years ago and his memory might be spotty. On the other hand it seems like a major memory lapse saying he started SC.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by aron

So if Krieger gives this Forrest Gumpish tale decades later it doesn't mean that its pure hogwash. Nonetheless, when someone like Dave can't corroborate any of it, we should also take that into consideration.

I think that a consideration of Forrest Gump is the key. The stories told in Forrest Gump were essentially all true — with the exception of the existence of Forrest Gump.

Elvis swung his hips in an insane way. Forrest Gump didn't give him the idea.
There was a break-in at the Watergate Hotel. Forrest Gump didn't report it.
Nixon used ping-pong as part of his early olive branches with China. Forrest Gump was not among the participants.
Someone created the smiley face. Forrest Gump wasn't the one.
"$hit happens" is a popular statement. Forrest Gump didn't come up with it.

Not saying that Krieger was not involved in any of the things he wrote about. But as true as the underlying stories may be (even every last one of them), it seems too likely that he wrote himself into some of them despite not being close enough to even do a drive-by.

All of that to say that each and every account is worthy of further digging — not to push Krieger out of them, but to discover what happened in a part of California that most of us have almost no insight into.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Dave

During this entire time of over two years I never met Doug Krieger nor even heard of him. I was actively involved in the growth of SC while I was there (1969-1971) attending the university in SC. Dave Becker, his wife Jill and Dennis Lawrence and his wife Dee accepted the Lord and were baptized in the Atlantic Ocean in SC in late 1969 and sometime after I left for Detroit in July 1971 became the elders in the SC church.

Doug does not say what specific years he was in SC but indicates that he was responsible for its initial growth which is pure nonsense as I indicated earlier. Of course, awareness was in SC in 1971 but I doubt he remembers anyone named Krieger. I have a service group list from Jan 1971 in SC of 15 groups and Krieger is not mentioned. His story is a fabrication.

Perhaps Doug K. was on the Pacific Ocean side of Santa Cruz.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Dave

Of course, awareness was in SC in 1971 but I doubt he remembers anyone named Krieger. I have a service group list from Jan 1971 in SC of 15 groups and Krieger is not mentioned. His story is a fabrication.

Yes, I must have come in, along with 11 other Southgate Sickies (friends from Southgate Michigan) right after Dave left for Detroit. I remember well Karl, Ma, Dennis (elder) Dave Becker (elder), and somewhat remember John (elder ??)(Lawrence and Becker ended up in Ft. Lauderdale).

But I never once heard of Krieger until Ft. Lauderdale, that he was up in the inner circle of Lee.

But then I never heard of Dave either, until I went to Detroit. Karl, a proud a-hole, and sold on himself like Krieger, always told that he started Santa Cruz by preaching the gospel on the boardwalk.

Incidentally, by far Paul Ma was my favorite brother from those days. He was such a sweet caring brother. I sure wish I could talk to him again so I could give him a piece of my mind for not telling me the truth about Watchman Nee in Shanghai, which he had to know about. Aron brought up "omerta." Which I eventually learned was the culture of the Chinese. So I guess I can't hold it against Paul Ma for being what he grew up to be. Still, I'm not happy with him for allowing me to be deceived. He prolly told Hammond in confidence. Which would explain Karl's rebellion against Lee. Or maybe Karl learned it from someone else.

Now I know that there was a hidden history of Lee even way back then ... and of Nee too. Sure wish I knew that back then. It would have saved me from 10 yrs of the formative yrs of my adult life committed to a cult.

And I wouldn't today likely be on this crazy forum ... getting hammered for not being a rabid evangelical.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Dave

I left in the summer of 1971 to Detroit as part of a migration. I knew Karl very well and he had mixed emotions about WL asking me to move to Detroit but thought that it might be a sign that WL was giving him some recognition to his efforts in SC. Karl always knew he was kind of a renegade but wanted some level of acceptance from Lee.

During this entire time of over two years I never met Doug Krieger nor even heard of him. I was actively involved in the growth of SC while I was there (1969-1971) attending the university in SC. Dave Becker, his wife Jill and Dennis Lawrence and his wife Dee accepted the Lord and were baptized in the Atlantic Ocean in SC in late 1969 and sometime after I left for Detroit in July 1971 became the elders in the SC church.

Doug does not say what specific years he was in SC but indicates that he was responsible for its initial growth which is pure nonsense as I indicated earlier. Of course, awareness was in SC in 1971 but I doubt he remembers anyone named Krieger. I have a service group list from Jan 1971 in SC of 15 groups and Krieger is not mentioned. His story is a fabrication.

Originally Posted by awareness

Yes, I must have come in, along with 11 other Southgate Sickies (friends from Southgate Michigan) right after Dave left for Detroit. I remember well Karl, Ma, Dennis (elder) Dave Becker (elder), and somewhat remember John (elder ??)(Lawrence and Becker ended up in Ft. Lauderdale).

But I never once heard of Krieger until Ft. Lauderdale, that he was up in the inner circle of Lee.

But then I never heard of Dave either, until I went to Detroit. Karl, a proud a-hole, and sold on himself like Krieger, always told that he started Santa Cruz by preaching the gospel on the boardwalk..

So awareness says he heard of Krieger while in Ft. Lauderdale, that Krieger was up in the inner circle of Lee. Did he hear this from Hammond or someone else, and in what way? This is the only current link to corroborate anything Krieger wrote of his own experience & position within the 1960s LCs. The LC is a tight-knit bunch - there aren't "six degrees of separation" in this group, more like two or three. Everyone seemed to know everyone else. That was part of the attraction: it was easy to get drawn in. I stayed at peoples' homes, who had stayed at others' homes. It was very communal -- "I worked on Meeting Hall X with Brother Y"... the most inconspicuous brother would know somebody who was at the top of the food chain. In fact awareness' experiences with current "top blended" RK is a perfect example.

So if Dave never heard of Krieger that's significant. But I would still be interested what awareness had heard of him, while in Ft. Lauderdale.