A little background

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Terry

True we all have our opinion. By definition, cult can be very broad. That's why I believe many are uncomfortable touching the topic. However, to say the LC are sectarian is more palatable. It's transparent to see sectarian practices, attitudes, and behaviors in the LC/LSM ministry churches.
As for the phrase "another gospel", it's clear to say in the LC, they don't like to speak the gospel for the sake of bringing a man, woman, or child to salvation. If bringing someone to salvation doesn't issue into seeing the vision of the ministry LSM publishes, it's considered a waste of time.
Some may say bringing someone to salvation for the sake of adding to the Body of Christ is considered the "low gospel".

I agree with what you are saying but isn't it a given they are sectarian. That is interesting about how the LC considers the necessity of accepting the vision of the ministry that LSM publishes or it is a waste of time trying to bring someone to Christ for salvation. They are more than just sectarian so we could use one of the definitions of a cult as a description: a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person (WL) and thing (LSM literature).

In any case, as I noted earlier, boughtbyJesus indicated her direct experience with the elders in the LC and it appeared unusual and controlling however you want to identify it. She was an outsider providing her first impressions and they weren't good. Hope she is doing well.

[boughtbyJesus]

Originally Posted by Dave

I agree with what you are saying but isn't it a given they are sectarian. That is interesting about how the LC considers the necessity of accepting the vision of the ministry that LSM publishes or it is a waste of time trying to bring someone to Christ for salvation. They are more than just sectarian so we could use one of the definitions of a cult as a description: a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person (WL) and thing (LSM literature).

In any case, as I noted earlier, boughtbyJesus indicated her direct experience with the elders in the LC and it appeared unusual and controlling however you want to identify it. She was an outsider providing her first impressions and they weren't good. Hope she is doing well.

As I have stated earlier, I am a fairly new believer, but my first impression and belief now after being exposed to some of their claims/assertions of this ministry and their churches is that they are a cult. I do not wish to offend anyone or to make inflammatory remarks, but this was/is my feeling. My recollection is that they believe they are special, chosen group of people, through WL, whom they say was chosen by God to be the oracle if this age, to whom He was revealing lost truths and the proper way of the church. I never for one second believed any of those claims and many others they asserted, which would inevitably lead to heated discussions between my husband and I. To my ears, those claims sounded utterly absurd and wrong. As my husband started to listen to more and more messages, downloading more and more material, and acquiring more booklets, literature, revival books and "crystallization" books on the different books of the bible, which were "given" to him by his LC, I became more and more horrified! I don't understand why he can't "see" what is clear to me. I mean, I know why, but I just can't believe it sometimes! And when I've tried to engage him in conversation about it, he literally sounds just like them! The words, the cadence and pitch of his voice. He has no individual voice!

[aron]

Originally Posted by boughtbyJesus

I don't understand why he can't "see" what is clear to me. I mean, I know why, but I just can't believe it sometimes! And when I've tried to engage him in conversation about it, he literally sounds just like them! The words, the cadence and pitch of his voice. He has no individual voice!

I know that it's unsettling, to say the least. But look at it this way: it is an opportunity, arranged by your Father in heaven, for you to demonstrate magnanimity (i.e. generosity, or mercy), peace, and self-control. When you hear the LC cadence break out, and you want to cover your ears and eyes and run screaming, just look up at your Father, give thanks for the moment, and it will pass. It will pass. You may be young in the Lord but you are not too young for battle. If you calmly accept your lot, God will use you. God put you there, and wants to use you.

[UntoHim]

boughtbyJesus,

I think you have received some good and wise input, and this is a big reason why this forum exists - so someone in your position can receive some fellowship and practical help. Some of us have been in the same place you are in...some still are. This doesn't mean you will hear the same thing from every forum member, and in fact, it's likely you'll receive a wide variation of advise on what and what not to do.

I think the current quote of the day from Oswald Chambers is some great advise for someone in your position: "God never gives us discernment in order that we may criticize, but that we may intercede." As you have probably noticed, there is a pervasive "spirit of criticism" among our dear brothers and sisters in the Local Church. The reasons for this are more involved than I could even begin to explain in just one post, but suffice it say for now, that they have inherited this spirit of criticism from their apostle, Witness Lee, who no doubt inherited from his mentor, Watchman Nee. Some of this dynamic comes from the ancient Chinese culture these men came from, but again, as with any religious culture developed from mere men, it is extremely complex and cannot be described or explained so easily.

"for God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control." (2 Timothy 1:7)
It should go without saying that you will never have a good outcome fighting against this spirit of criticism with a spirit of criticism of your own. In my experience hiding behind this spirit of criticism is actually a spirit of fear and shame. Again, this is something rather involved and complex within the culture of the Local Church of Witness Lee, and I'm not saying that just knowing that this spirit exists will get you very far with your husband, but it is hard to fight against something that you can't even define, much less understand. Local Churchers are taught that all the answers to all lives problems and troubles comes from "contacting" the Holy Spirit within our human spirit by "calling on the Lord", "Pray-reading" the Bible and the teachings of Witness Lee and going to copious amounts of meetings, conferences and trainings. But has this resulted in a spirit of power and love and self-control?

[boughtbyJesus]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

boughtbyJesus,

I think you have received some good and wise input, and this is a big reason why this forum exists - so someone in your position can receive some fellowship and practical help. Some of us have been in the same place you are in...some still are. This doesn't mean you will hear the same thing from every forum member, and in fact, it's likely you'll receive a wide variation of advise on what and what not to do.

I think the current quote of the day from Oswald Chambers is some great advise for someone in your position: "God never gives us discernment in order that we may criticize, but that we may intercede." As you have probably noticed, there is a pervasive "spirit of criticism" among our dear brothers and sisters in the Local Church. The reasons for this are more involved than I could even begin to explain in just one post, but suffice it say for now, that they have inherited this spirit of criticism from their apostle, Witness Lee, who no doubt inherited from his mentor, Watchman Nee. Some of this dynamic comes from the ancient Chinese culture these men came from, but again, as with any religious culture developed from mere men, it is extremely complex and cannot be described or explained so easily.

"for God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control." (2 Timothy 1:7)
It should go without saying that you will never have a good outcome fighting against this spirit of criticism with a spirit of criticism of your own. In my experience hiding behind this spirit of criticism is actually a spirit of fear and shame. Again, this is something rather involved and complex within the culture of the Local Church of Witness Lee, and I'm not saying that just knowing that this spirit exists will get you very far with your husband, but it is hard to fight against something that you can't even define, much less understand. Local Churchers are taught that all the answers to all lives problems and troubles comes from "contacting" the Holy Spirit within our human spirit by "calling on the Lord", "Pray-reading" the Bible and the teachings of Witness Lee and going to copious amounts of meetings, conferences and trainings. But has this resulted in a spirit of power and love and self-control?

Thank you UntoHim for your kind words of encouragement. I agree that I should not engage in any criticism or fighting. I have learned this the hard way, that it will not get me very far at all with my husband. I am learning to give it to the Lord and not allow myself to be provoked by praying and asking the Lord to give me strength and guidance and to help me not to react to any of what he says to me, which is very hard at times because he can be so mean in what he says and how he says it! Unfortunately, the fruit of the spirit is not very evident in my husband, and in fact he has become meaner, quicker to anger, less patient and overall just plain uglier since becoming involved with the LC. I realize I cannot change my husband, I can only try to love him, pray for him and our family, and give it to the Lord and continue in my own walk with the Lord, continue to learn about Him, and continue to live for Him and His glory more and more everyday.

[awareness]

Thanks for sharing boughtbyJesus. For such a newbie Christian you sure have an unusual power of perception into the obvious. I sure wish that I could have been as sharp when I encountered the local church.

I remember my wife invited a friend from work to a meeting and she jumped right, just loving the church life with bubbly & bouncy enthusiasm. With excitement she brought her bank president husband and his VP from work to a meeting. They were standing right behind me when the meeting took flight, so to speak, and I heard one of them say to the other, "These people are half a bubble off level." They never returned.

I have to ask myself -- and kick myself -- why didn't I catch on that quick? It took me 10 years.

Sis. I still haven't figured out what drove me to join and stay in the LC that long. I look back now and it seems that I was deluded during those years.

And that brings me to:

Originally Posted by boughtbyJesus

He has no individual voice!

There you have it sis ... in a nutshell. The loss of the individual voice or self is indicative of willfully accepting mind control.

Call it sect, cult, eccentric, fringe, whatever, but it is not mentally healthy.

Sure wish I could give you clear advise that would solve your problem and save your marriage. But people under any kind of mind control have to come out on their own. Short of pulling an intervention with the services of a professional deprogrammer, there's nothing anyone can do to convince someone under mind control that would break them free. In fact, the harder you try, the harder you push, to change them, or get them free, the deeper they run in, and dig in. Your efforts could actually drive them deeper into the mind control system.

Fighting will accomplish nothing but driving you further apart.

My heart goes out to your husband, that he'll wake up and get free ... and to you, that you'll be able to hang in there long enough for that to happen.

Blessings ...