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#1 | |
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But seems to me there's lots of conjecturing going on; by Nigel, the scholars, Nee & Lee, and even yourself bro VIW. There's never going to be certitude or consensus concerning the gospels, of content or publication. Only faith reconciles it. The certitude Nigel seems to bring to the table, that should be important to us, is: Neither Nee nor Lee were Bible scholars ... they were over inflated puffballs ... over sold on themselves. And they sold us, at least me, a false bill of goods.
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#2 | |
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I think WN was a scholar of the 1st class. He was extremely well read, an original thinker, and respected the world over and a martyr. I would not say that WL was a scholar in general because it seems he only read Nee and what Nee recommended, but I would say he was a Bible scholar. I think both were great men of God. WL did get considerably over sold on himself.
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Yours in Christ, Steve Miller www.voiceInWilderness.info For the eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and His ears are open to their cry. - 1 Pet 3:12 |
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#3 | |
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#4 | ||
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As for Lee, I'm sure he loved the Bible and loved studying it. I have become increasingly cautious, however, about what might be "helpful" from his ministry. Why? It's not to say that the was completely wrong, all the time, but he was so quick to dismiss everything that he didn't deem to be useful for his purposes. The quote that Nigel included at the beginning of his writing says a lot about Lee: Quote:
When I look at things more objectively, I see those in the LC people claiming that the ministry of Lee is the "ministry of the age". Looking beyond the LC, where is there any significant appreciation of Lee's ministry among the general Christian public? This is in contrast to Nee's ministry, where you might at least expect some here and there to have heard about and possibly have read Nee. Nee's legacy is that he left something which may be of value to Christians outside the LC. Lee's legacy is overshadowed by his exclusivism, and his know-it-all attitude. I'm not here to say that Lee didn't offer anything of value, however, I think that he destroyed any respect that he could of gotten outside of the LC. |
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#5 | |
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I think I agree with everything you said, except for taking WN "with a grain of salt." What he said deserves serious consideration. No one should be followed blindly. I don't buy a lot of what he said. WL had some serious problems. Pride and exclusivity were among the top ones - which WN did not share. His other big problems were to throw out parts of the word that didn't agree with him, too much emphasis on submission to human authority in the church, and more. He repented for his exclusivity on his death bed. It's too bad he didn't say more about it. WL led people to enjoy the Lord and to really love the Lord with all their heart. Also to love and reverence and trust the Word. It would have been great if he could have been balanced by other brothers. His ministry went on a path of self-destruction in 1988 after he kicked out all other voices that could have corrected him. At that time I thought the quarantined brothers were rebellious and finished as far as the Lord was concerned. Then we were quarantined in 2007. John Ingalls, Christian Chen and Bill Mallon published a hymnal. John wanted to include some hymns by WL, but Christian Chen said that WL's name was too soiled. Christian Chen said that it would take 40 years before Christians could receive something by WL. I don't think it would take that long. Christianity Today in Jan, 2015 listed the 10 most influential churches of the last century. #2 was the underground church movement in communist China. Also, in April 2014 both WN and WL, with emphasis on WL, were honored in the U.S. Congress as being instrumental in bringing the gospel to communist China.
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Yours in Christ, Steve Miller www.voiceInWilderness.info For the eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and His ears are open to their cry. - 1 Pet 3:12 |
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#6 | |
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Regarding being honored by the U.S. Congress, I assume you know that for 50,000 bucks you can get May designated as National Tulip Month? You can get them to read anything into the Congressional Register if you grease their palms. The Congress doesn't work without a quid pro quo, and that almost invariably involves money. How do you think they run those multi-million dollar election campaigns? To me, public acclaim by the U.S. Congress is indication that someone, unnamed, put pressure on someone else, probably through monetary means, but also possibly through coercion, and voila! You have a public document. That's how the system works. Someone got paid off.
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#7 | |
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#8 | |
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Think of Issac Asimov. Thirty-five years ago he was the most prolific writer of science books for the layman in the world. He wrote about everything. Now, if you are now interested in learning about Physics or Biology, would you buy a book by Asimov, or someone more contemporary? Same with Lee, and he because of his reputation has an even harder hill to climb. Ain't gonna happen. Not without some serious re-writing and repackaging by someone not in the LCM movement, and even then highly unlikely. Bits and pieces will get out, but that's it. People want new things, not necessarily new content, but they want to know someone contemporary is recommending it. Used bookstores are full of books by forgotten writers, some of whom were even once famous. Sad but that's the reality. |
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#9 | |
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Anyway, Christians will never take anything directly from Lee in any significant numbers. They might take it from someone who passes it along second hand. (As Joyce Meyer already passes along some things from Nee.) But Lee's time came and went. He traded influence for power. Said another way, instead of making friends he chose to be a big shot. He said many times that if you are going to be famous it's better to have a bad name than a good one. Well, he got the bad name he wanted. So why be surprised no one wants his ministry? The only eligible group to take Lee's stuff might be evangelicals. And their values are in conflict with Lee's focus on "building the church." No evangelical is going to take that word because they see it as telling the church to neglect the world. And from what we know of LCM history, they are right. I'm not saying no one should take Lee's ministry. That's a subject for another discussion. I'm just saying people who think they will are dreaming. Teachers have a limited time window to reach people. Who reads Murray or Tozer anymore? And they are loved, considered orthodox and much more famous. Why should someone read Lee, especially as antagonistic, unorthodox and obscure as he is? Like I said, dreaming. |
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#10 | ||
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They also have a few Andrew Murray audio books. Not much activity on those.
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#11 |
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Did you know Nee? Or do you draw your picture of Nee from Lee?
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#12 |
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From Nee's writings, biographies of him and what WL said about him.
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Yours in Christ, Steve Miller www.voiceInWilderness.info For the eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and His ears are open to their cry. - 1 Pet 3:12 |
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#13 | |
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Hit me in PM for more info ...
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#14 | |
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Your voice of moderation is welcome here. Please don't take the deafening silence as hostility. I find that the more I argue here, the more extreme I get, which is why it is crucial for me to consider other, less entrenched points of view. Even though you're probably in the minority in ascribing positive values to the ministry of WL, this view is still necessary for a conversation to take place. Please don't think we are out to either pound you into submission or drive you away. Conversations need differing perspectives: then they become mutual learning opportunities. Regarding the so-called synoptic problem, for example, I felt that your original readings were valuable. I consider myself well-versed in the gospels but you helped me consider them anew. Which is what conversations are all about.
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#15 | |
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These recent articles by Tomes have addressed Lee's adherence to older Christian scholarship, with the complete rejection of the modern. I have seen little to persuade me that, in this regard, Lee displayed serious shotcomings. Christians for centuries have dissed the new in favor of the old, prefering the test of time to vett out the good from the worthless. Music is just another example of this. It seems to me that the contempory solution to the so-called synoptic problem is to apply later and later dates to the writing of the gospels. Eventually even these "scholars" have realized that probably the authors could not have lived a hundred years or more. Since many, if not most, of the apostles were martyred during Nero's reign of terror, its hard to believe all the Gospels were written post-temple destruction. Then the "scholars" conclude that perhaps the Gospels are forgeries, and their brand of scholarship creates new side effects to their prescribed medicines. At one time bother Tomes addressed pertinent issues in LC-world, but now Im not so sure.
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#16 | ||||
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Not me. I become softened. When I encounter other views it makes me realize that my views are just one among many.
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But most scholars believe the gospel we call John was written at the end of the 1st c. And I've read some scholars who believe -- based upon Acts 4:13, that John was illiterate -- that John was actually written by the Johannine school in Ephesus, from what they got from John, or maybe dictated by John. It's no coincident, I suppose, that it was in Ephesus that 500 yrs prior Heraclitus coined the word Logos, and the gospel of John opens with the word Logos. I think we owe a debt of gratitude, to that pagan. God works in mysterious ways. Even today.
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#17 |
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I've become the same way. If Lee completely skirted an issue, and then I'm presented with a writing on that issue with a myriad of references, it's not too hard to take a non-Lee position on that issue.
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#18 | |
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And then the whole discussion begs the questions -- why would Matthew and Mark wait until their death beds to write their stories? Also, how do we know that their gospels were not written over a ten year period? It is very reasonable that fragments were written in rough draft form as the Spirit of God gave them time and remembrance.
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#19 | |
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Robinson was Dean of Trinity College and a prominent liberal theologian. However, this work is not clouded by his theology. |
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#20 | |||
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And like, "Matthew was a wealthy tax collector." We get this from Matthew 9:9, but no mention of wealthy: Mat 9:9 And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he saith unto him, Follow me. And he arose, and followed him. The problem with this verse is if Matthew wrote it why did he write it in the third person? Why didn't he write something like this: And as Jesus passed forth from thence, he saw [me], Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and he saith unto [me], Follow me. And [I] arose, and followed him. Quote:
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But Witness Lee's claim to an early date for the gospels wasn't sold as a guess. The MOTA said it so it had to be true.
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#21 |
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And when have we heard you speak kindly or favorably of Lee or your LC experiences?
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#22 | |
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One, I didn't know I needed to, or that it was expected of me. Two, I'd have to work at it, to come up with kindly or favorably of Lee or my LC experiences. Three, I sure wouldn't wish to appear to promote Lee and the LC. Cuz I'm convinced I'd be doing others a complete disservice that might buy into my promotion. But thanks for askin.
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#23 | |
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When we hear others speak their minds, we have an opportunity to incorporate their points of view into our own. Sometimes that incorporation includes a fundamental re-assessment. But usually, I think, we accept what lines up with our pre-dispositions, and ignore (or downplay) the rest. As I've written before (audience groans again) the ekklesia is a great place to get right-sized. When we realize that everybody isn't going to stampede after our every utterance, then we have to consider that, as awareness said, there are other views out there besides our own. So the best thing that's happened to me is that I've posted here repeatedly on this forum, and still haven't convinced everyone that I am God's chosen oracle on the earth today. Were that so, what would have happened to my poor ego? I'm already an insufferable know-it-all!
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#24 | ||
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How did the testimony of Jesus' life, work, and person transit from oral to written tradition? Nigel's study, the Synoptic Problem, VIW's comments, all could be helpful. They don't have to solve a problem, but rather shed some light on it. Good enough. Possibly there were 4 critical factors in the evolution of the written gospel tradition. (1) First of all, they already had "scriptures", what we call the OT. (2) The oral tradition was aimed at showing that Jesus the Nazarene was the sought-after and hoped-for Messiah predicted in the OT. All the speeches in Acts point to this kind of "referential" view. Also see Acts 17:11 "The noble Berean Jews eagerly searched the scriptures daily to see if what Paul said was true". (3) You had letters (epistles) being composed. Church tradition, and logic, say that this would be fairly early in the process. So there were already written NT documents existent. (4) Out of this, the gospels began to formulate themselves (I am supposing here). For (4) see e.g. Quote:
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#25 | |
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Look at point (2) above. The NT was referential, in that it constantly sought to legitimize its gospel argument by showing that the OT "scriptures" were fulfilled by Jesus. Then (3) the epistles continued this. The Epistle to the Hebrews is a classic case. The first 2 chapters (remember that they probably weren't divided into chapters for centuries) had 11 explicit references. The Epistle to the Hebrews was a "Meditation on the (OT) scriptures" using Jesus as the point of focus. But what did WL do? In the Galatians LS (Message 4) I recently read, WL told them twice to pray-read verses from Paul's epistles; he ignored the OT unless absolutely required. And even then, he superimposed upon it a completely fabricated "economy" template which Paul didn't delineate. Then, using this "economy" metric WL could say which OT scriptures were profitable, and how, and which could be disregarded as "natural" and "fallen". So if Paul repeatedly in his epistles (Colossians and Ephesians) wrote to the saints to sing the Psalms, WL could disregard this. It wasn't part of "God's NT economy"; it was too low. Yes, LSM was ignorant of the Synoptic Problem. All of us are ignorant to some degree. James 3:1 says, "My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation." WL used our ignorance to become our "master", and for this he'll have to answer.
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