Faith through experiential knowledge of God

[bearbear]

In John 17:3, Jesus says eternal life is to know God. The verb "know" (ginosko) implies knowing a person through direct experience and not just knowing facts about a person. Here's a commentary that goes into more detail:

http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/...eVerseID/26763

In the LCs it seems like there was a lot of emphasis on head knowledge about God and his word. After all, what separated us from other Christians was access to special knowledge about "recovered" truths concerning Christ and the Church. Implications behind stressing doctrines related to God's economy and "processed triune God" meant that it was very important to know the science behind how God worked, thereby subconsciously de-emphasizing the value of knowing God personally.

Yet while intellectual knowledge and Witness Lee's theology was put on a pedestal, to be fair, the LCs also encouraged everyone to pursue a personal relationship with God. I wonder if those of us who have held onto our faith despite difficult experiences in the LC did so not just because of head knowledge and knowing facts about Jesus but because of direct personal experiences in relationship with the Lord.

I've come to the realization that faith and "knowing God" are directly related. After all, can you ever doubt the existence of someone you know personally? There are many seemingly convincing voices in the world telling us that Jesus was not who he said he was and the God of the bible is not real. What keeps a person anchored in their faith especially when they've gone through incredible suffering inflicted by experiences in the LC?

At the same time, the LCs may have burdened many with so many meetings, conferences, trainings, HWMR/life study readings and serving that many may not have had the time or energy to spend personal time with Jesus. It also seems there was not much of a emphasis to encourage brothers and sisters to not only seek God in prayer, but to listen and hear his voice. A relationship has to have communication in both directions and not just one. Instead it seems many were pressured to listen to other voices such as Witness Lee's and to spam God with unidirectional "O Lord Jesus"es while awaiting the divine dispensing that was to follow, without realizing that God was indeed waiting by the door all along, waiting for us to invite him in to have conversation and fellowship.

Perhaps we can open this thread to testimonies of those who have experiences of answered prayers and personal relationship with Jesus during and post LC and how it has anchored their faith.

John 10:27
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

[bearbear]

Unfortunately, my own spiritual life was not very strong during the years I grew up in the LC. I've had experiences of answered prayer, but they were never deep because I'm not sure if I ever fully gave my heart to Jesus and committed myself to him as a young person growing up. Most of my experiences of prayer in the LC was just myself talking to God, and I never took time to listen to his response, though I did notice when the prayers were answered.

I think God had to put in some extra work to keep my faith afloat all these years until I was ready for a deeper commitment.

So instead I'll share a recent experience I had in my prayer journal that was post-LC that falls in the bucket of "experiential knowledge" of God.

"The Lord convicted me during sleep that I never asked him what I thought about my work situation these past eight years. I’ve been stuck in a job at my career I’ve wanted out of for a long time, but had to stay at due to circumstances and obligations.

So I asked the Lord for an answer and as I quieted my mind I saw a blue sleeping mat (the kind that campers/backpackers use) unroll across a forest floor. This seemed bizarre and totally unrelated but I asked God for understanding. I was then reminded of the Israelite’s wilderness experience and how they had to camp from place to place.

I then realized that what I was going through these eight years was part of a wilderness experience God was bringing me through. I always blamed myself for making a wrong decision that caused me to end up in the mess I was in, but I believe God was saying my situation was in his hands and he was still sovereign. It was a tremendous relief to come to the realization that I no longer had to regret my own decisions in the past that led me into the mess I got into.

I’ll also be more aware of choosing to trust in the Lord rather than complain and grumble when encountering tough situations as the Israelites did.

I also realized if everything had worked out in my career as I wanted it too, I would have never been forced to turn to God and away from the idols I had been worshipping. God is using this rough season in my life to teach me how to trust in him."

Romans 8:28
And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Yet while intellectual knowledge and Witness Lee's theology was put on a pedestal, to be fair, the LCs also encouraged everyone to pursue a personal relationship with God. I wonder if those of us who have held onto our faith despite difficult experiences in the LC did so not just because of head knowledge and knowing facts about Jesus but because of direct personal experiences in relationship with the Lord.

This is very true. I have heard the brothers encourage the saints again and again to have a personal relationship with God. The catch, of course, is that everything is on their terms when it comes to a personal relationship with God. For example, if I don't read the HWMR, to the brothers that implies that I haven't experienced God, even though I am reading the Bible.

Originally Posted by bearbear

At the same time, the LCs may have burdened many with so many meetings, conferences, trainings, HWMR/life study readings and serving that many may not have had the time or energy to spend personal time with Jesus. It also seems there was not much of a emphasis to encourage brothers and sisters to not only seek God in prayer, but to listen and hear his voice. A relationship has to have communication in both directions and not just one. Instead it seems many were pressured to listen to other voices such as Witness Lee's and to spam God with unidirectional "O Lord Jesus"es while awaiting the divine dispensing that was to follow, without realizing that God was indeed waiting by the door all along, waiting for us to invite him in to have conversation and fellowship.

I believe they fear those who have a genuine relationship with God. I have heard the BB's talk about how there are no "spiritual giants" in the Lord's Recovery. It is clear that they're not really talking about spiritual giants. They don't want those who know the Lord outside of the context of the ministry. This is a dangerous thing for them. It is better to keep everyone really busy. I have been criticized before for spending to much time reading the Bible and even ministry books on my own. Apparently I was being individualist and not pursuing the Lord "corporately".

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Freedom

This is very true. I have heard the brothers encourage the saints again and again to have a personal relationship with God. The catch, of course, is that everything is on their terms when it comes to a personal relationship with God. For example, if I don't read the HWMR, to the brothers that implies that I haven't experienced God, even though I am reading the Bible.

That is a good point. I have the impression many in the LCs spend most of their personal time with the Lord in the mornings, which would involve reading the HWMR, which is basically reading Witness Lee's over-edited words.

I believe they fear those who have a genuine relationship with God. I have heard the BB's talk about how there are no "spiritual giants" in the Lord's Recovery. It is clear that they're not really talking about spiritual giants. They don't want those who know the Lord outside of the context of the ministry. This is a dangerous thing for them. It is better to keep everyone really busy. I have been criticized before for spending to much time reading the Bible and even ministry books on my own. Apparently I was being individualist and not pursuing the Lord "corporately".

It does seem like a spirit of control has a tight grip over the LCs. Perhaps many are being suffocated and being made unwitting slaves to this spirit of control thereby losing their freedom. I appreciate Jesus' testimony in the gospels because there is no record of him trying to manipulate or control anyone. Instead Jesus reigned through his living which in turn attracted everyone to follow him.

2 Cor 3:17
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Freedom

This is very true. I have heard the brothers encourage the saints again and again to have a personal relationship with God. The catch, of course, is that everything is on their terms when it comes to a personal relationship with God. For example, if I don't read the HWMR, to the brothers that implies that I haven't experienced God, even though I am reading the Bible.

I believe they fear those who have a genuine relationship with God. I have heard the BB's talk about how there are no "spiritual giants" in the Lord's Recovery. It is clear that they're not really talking about spiritual giants. They don't want those who know the Lord outside of the context of the ministry. This is a dangerous thing for them. It is better to keep everyone really busy. I have been criticized before for spending to much time reading the Bible and even ministry books on my own. Apparently I was being individualist and not pursuing the Lord "corporately".

bb & Freedom,

You guys that grew up in the local church prove that what I saw happening back in the late 1970s, became the only results possible, when Witness Lee, and the elders, began to declare that Witness Lee was the oracle/apostle/authority on the earth : a movement that went from Spirit led, to a movement that's man/men led.

Now I admit that it was probably Lee led from the beginning. And that it was my idealism's that gave me the impression that the local church was Spirit led ; my idealism's and that of the brothers and sisters that were caught up in the same or similar idealism's.

I now conclude that being idealistic makes us see things that aren't there. And since they aren't there, but are mere illusions, we're eventually going to be disappointed by them.

I remember well how difficult is was coming out of the local church. I don't think I could possibly imagine what it would be like coming out after growing up in the local church (nor like Lisbon and Ohio, that were in 40 and 30 yrs, respectively.)

So I stand with you brothers, all of you, on your journey and struggle to work your way out of the local church. Just remember that what you find after leaving will prolly be like a rebound relationship: temporary. And that coming out of the local church is like the growing of a new life; and that that new growth is unpredictable. So decide and commit carefully, and be careful with idealism's. And good luck. I stand with you, in heart, mind, and spirit.

[OBW]

Can I ask a question (or a few questions) that might be somewhat at odds with the premise of this thread? (Besides this first question.)

What is the knowledge of God? And what is the experiential knowledge of God?

Is experience something that you gain from quiet time privately seeking independent, private revelation? Or is it the revelation when the words that you know are clearly from God in the scripture are suddenly illuminated in your life as you experience situations in which your choices suddenly are seen as choosing to bear the image of God, or the image of bearbear/Mike/Igzy/awareness/Ohio (your name goes here)?

"Your words were found and I did eat them." What words? The ones that we already have, not ones that you get from private revelation.

My assertion is that while time each day reflecting and meditating with the Word and prayer is important (and we can give it all kinds of spiritual names — or not), it is nothing if it does not meet the road, both literally and figuratively. That is what James said. And what it would seem that Witness Lee was determined not to have anyone measuring him by.

The experience is not in your quiet time. Knowing God is not just gaining better facts or internal knowledge. It is coming to the place where his will in real life is evident because we know the nature of the one we call Lord. We understand what his directive is in "this" situation. And we also understand that he may not have a specific will in terms of a lot of things. Which job to take. Who to marry. Whether to live in this neighborhood or that one. Whether to go to the baseball came or stay home and dig through the Word (actually, he might rather that some of us go to the baseball game). Not saying that he might not ever have a will on some of these things for some people in some cases. But everything is not "preordained" because if it were, we could not defend against it or avoid it. But we can.

Because of this, I find that faith is often experienced and grown by those who seek to live according to their understanding of who God is and what he desires in this life (humans who bear his image in their lives) rather than to just dig for more useless facts and doctrines about all kinds of things that have little to do with living in this life. There is no "experience" in that. Just knowledge.

[OBW]

Now, some moderation of my previous post.

I am not saying that God does not speak to some people to do things that he does not ask others to do. He clearly calls some to be missionaries, teachers/preachers of the word (other than the way in which we all are called), and other specific callings. But we should not all be looking for such callings. Yours may be to just live righteously as someone who does what he is gifted (naturally or spiritually) to do, like accounting, teaching, law, even flipping burgers.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by bearbear

In John 17:3, Jesus says eternal life is to know God. The verb "know" (ginosko) implies knowing a person through direct experience and not just knowing facts about a person. Here's a commentary that goes into more detail:

http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/...eVerseID/26763

In the LCs it seems like there was a lot of emphasis on head knowledge about God and his word. After all, what separated us from other Christians was access to special knowledge about "recovered" truths concerning Christ and the Church. Implications behind stressing doctrines related to God's economy and "processed triune God" meant that it was very important to know the science behind how God worked, thereby subconsciously de-emphasizing the value of knowing God personally.

Yet while intellectual knowledge and Witness Lee's theology was put on a pedestal, to be fair, the LCs also encouraged everyone to pursue a personal relationship with God. I wonder if those of us who have held onto our faith despite difficult experiences in the LC did so not just because of head knowledge and knowing facts about Jesus but because of direct personal experiences in relationship with the Lord.

I've come to the realization that faith and "knowing God" are directly related. After all, can you ever doubt the existence of someone you know personally? There are many seemingly convincing voices in the world telling us that Jesus was not who he said he was and the God of the bible is not real. What keeps a person anchored in their faith especially when they've gone through incredible suffering inflicted by experiences in the LC?

At the same time, the LCs may have burdened many with so many meetings, conferences, trainings, HWMR/life study readings and serving that many may not have had the time or energy to spend personal time with Jesus. It also seems there was not much of a emphasis to encourage brothers and sisters to not only seek God in prayer, but to listen and hear his voice. A relationship has to have communication in both directions and not just one. Instead it seems many were pressured to listen to other voices such as Witness Lee's and to spam God with unidirectional "O Lord Jesus"es while awaiting the divine dispensing that was to follow, without realizing that God was indeed waiting by the door all along, waiting for us to invite him in to have conversation and fellowship.

Perhaps we can open this thread to testimonies of those who have experiences of answered prayers and personal relationship with Jesus during and post LC and how it has anchored their faith.

John 10:27
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

You have mischaracterized Witness Lee's ministry. He spent message after message focusing on the experience of God rather than knowledge about God. Whatever the problems are with his ministry neglecting the expereince of God isn't one of them.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by zeek

You have mischaracterized Witness Lee's ministry. He spent message after message focusing on the experience of God rather than knowledge about God. Whatever the problems are with his ministry neglecting the expereince of God isn't one of them.

Reflecting back I get the impression that there was a culture of obsession on many esoteric doctrines and uncovering special revelation in the bible. However this does not mean experience of the Lord was ignored, as I stated in my first post, we were often encouraged to pursue a relationship with Jesus which many may have done so and led them to be anchored in their faith in a real and living God.

However just because Lee encouraged us to "experience the Lord" and follow His leading doesn't mean it was put into practice by the ministry. I see enormous pressure within the movement to follow men rather than the Holy Spirit. Also I feel many were experiencing the Lord via the filter of Lee's teachings and doctrines and not following Jesus' commandments to help the poor, bless our enemies and to forgive others. Following Jesus' commands are difficult to do without a personal relationship with Jesus in my experience, however following Witness Lee is easy as long as you suppress all forms of critical thinking.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by OBW

Can I ask a question (or a few questions) that might be somewhat at odds with the premise of this thread? (Besides this first question.)

What is the knowledge of God? And what is the experiential knowledge of God?

Is experience something that you gain from quiet time privately seeking independent, private revelation? Or is it the revelation when the words that you know are clearly from God in the scripture are suddenly illuminated in your life as you experience situations in which your choices suddenly are seen as choosing to bear the image of God, or the image of bearbear/Mike/Igzy/awareness/Ohio (your name goes here)?

"Your words were found and I did eat them." What words? The ones that we already have, not ones that you get from private revelation.

My assertion is that while time each day reflecting and meditating with the Word and prayer is important (and we can give it all kinds of spiritual names — or not), it is nothing if it does not meet the road, both literally and figuratively. That is what James said. And what it would seem that Witness Lee was determined not to have anyone measuring him by.

The experience is not in your quiet time. Knowing God is not just gaining better facts or internal knowledge. It is coming to the place where his will in real life is evident because we know the nature of the one we call Lord. We understand what his directive is in "this" situation. And we also understand that he may not have a specific will in terms of a lot of things. Which job to take. Who to marry. Whether to live in this neighborhood or that one. Whether to go to the baseball came or stay home and dig through the Word (actually, he might rather that some of us go to the baseball game). Not saying that he might not ever have a will on some of these things for some people in some cases. But everything is not "preordained" because if it were, we could not defend against it or avoid it. But we can.

Because of this, I find that faith is often experienced and grown by those who seek to live according to their understanding of who God is and what he desires in this life (humans who bear his image in their lives) rather than to just dig for more useless facts and doctrines about all kinds of things that have little to do with living in this life. There is no "experience" in that. Just knowledge.

I define experiential knowledge as experiencing fellowship and conversation with God which can also come about as we struggle to obey God and do his word.

For example Jesus commands us to forgive others. Doctrinally, I know I am commanded to forgive but it is very difficult for me in some extreme cases. I've had experiences where I told God I know you want me to forgive so and so but I just can't bring myself to, help me. God will then remind me of how much I've messed up in the past and how much he's forgiven me. I've also had experiences where I got revelation of what that person was going through so I could understand their perspective better. Through this conversation with the Holy Spirit, I was able to follow Jesus commands to forgive from my heart.

I never would have been able to do this without this kind of fellowship and conversation with the Lord. I could fist pump "O Lord Jesus" all I want and scream in my mind "forgive! Forgive!" and never truly be able to follow through with my heart. Or I could sit down with Jesus and have fellowship with him enabling me to do so. Jesus says in John 15 that apart from him we can do nothing.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by OBW

Because of this, I find that faith is often experienced and grown by those who seek to live according to their understanding of who God is and what he desires in this life (humans who bear his image in their lives) rather than to just dig for more useless facts and doctrines about all kinds of things that have little to do with living in this life. There is no "experience" in that. Just knowledge.

I agree with your assessment of head knowledge however I think it is important to also spend time with God and hear his voice.

The Pharisees believed they had a correct understanding of who God was, and they had the right to since they were more immersed in scripture than anyone else. However it's likely they never tried to hear from God if they were on the right path. In their overzealousness, they crucified their own Messiah.

However Jesus was always around ready to engage in conversation with them and even said he wanted to gather them under his wings as a mother hen does to his chicks. Instead the Pharisees never came to Jesus to have life but stubbornly went ahead in their own path. A person can be very sincere, but also sincerely wrong. Humans seems to be good at deceiving ourselves, so perhaps we still need to check in with God to see if we are in the center of his will, otherwise we could be missing many great opportunities and things he's planned for us and unknowingly opposing him.

Perhaps Witness Lee also fell into this myopia of his own little world during his ministry. It's hard to believe someone could be hearing from the Lord and spending time in fellowship with Jesus yet do the things he did continually that have been well documented. If Lee repented then that would be another matter, but he went on to write Fermentation of the Present Rebellion to defend and cement his position.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Reflecting back I get the impression that there was a culture of obsession on many esoteric doctrines and uncovering special revelation in the bible. However this does not mean experience of the Lord was ignored, as I stated in my first post, we were often encouraged to pursue a relationship with Jesus which many may have done so and led them to be anchored in their faith in a real and living God.

Right. It wasn't ignored.

However just because Lee encouraged us to "experience the Lord" and follow His leading doesn't mean it was put into practice by the ministry. I see enormous pressure within the movement to follow men rather than the Holy Spirit. Also I feel many were experiencing the Lord via the filter of Lee's teachings and doctrines and not following Jesus' commandments to help the poor, bless our enemies and to forgive others. Following Jesus' commands are difficult to do without a personal relationship with Jesus in my experience, however following Witness Lee is easy as long as you suppress all forms of critical thinking.

It doesn't mean that it wasn't put into practice either or that it was put into practice sometimes and not others. People are always going to be experiencing the Lord through someone's filter be it only their own. If a person were actually following the Lord they wouldn't even need to know about his written commandments since the Lord would lead them to fulfill them any way. But, maybe that's not the way it really works. Maybe following the Lord means trying to follow his written commandments and using one's own judgment to figure out how to do that. Now that isn't what Lee taught, according to my understanding. It would require critical thinking and creativity and passion. The Leecal Churchers had plenty of passion, but critical thinking was verboten and creativity was stifled.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by awareness

bb & Freedom,

You guys that grew up in the local church prove that what I saw happening back in the late 1970s, became the only results possible, when Witness Lee, and the elders, began to declare that Witness Lee was the oracle/apostle/authority on the earth : a movement that went from Spirit led, to a movement that's man/men led.

Now I admit that it was probably Lee led from the beginning. And that it was my idealism's that gave me the impression that the local church was Spirit led ; my idealism's and that of the brothers and sisters that were caught up in the same or similar idealism's.

I now conclude that being idealistic makes us see things that aren't there. And since they aren't there, but are mere illusions, we're eventually going to be disappointed by them.

I remember well how difficult is was coming out of the local church. I don't think I could possibly imagine what it would be like coming out after growing up in the local church (nor like Lisbon and Ohio, that were in 40 and 30 yrs, respectively.)

So I stand with you brothers, all of you, on your journey and struggle to work your way out of the local church. Just remember that what you find after leaving will prolly be like a rebound relationship: temporary. And that coming out of the local church is like the growing of a new life; and that that new growth is unpredictable. So decide and commit carefully, and be careful with idealism's. And good luck. I stand with you, in heart, mind, and spirit.

I get the sense that you place a lot of the blame on yourself and your idealism which led to following Witness Lee which in turn led to many negative experiences in life. I feel that the Lord wants to tell you that you shouldn't blame yourself, as he also told me when he exposed to me how much I dwelt on regrets and self blame for foolish decisions made in the past, also stemming from idealism.

Children are by nature trusting and idealistic and Jesus implies that the kingdom of heaven is filled with children, so Jesus can't be against these qualities. Unfortunately this nature allows children to be easily taken advantage of and misled, and concerning the people who do such things to children, Jesus says, it would be better for them not to live but to commit suicide! (Matthew 18:6)

Perhaps idealism can lead us either to doom or to life. God also likens us to sheep and sheep are born with the need to follow something, perhaps idealistically so. Maybe the problem lies in who we were actually following and not the mechanism God gave us to do so. Witness Lee was advertising Jesus but he was really selling us himself and at best a leavened version of the real thing.

If Witness Lee was a false shepherd, then perhaps God struck him down in our hearts by exposing him for who he was. Now that us sheep have been scattered perhaps we are all in the process of trying to hear the voice of the true Shepherd so that we can come to him to have life.

In Ezekiel 34 God seems to place the blame on false shepherds rather than faulting sheep for their idealism in following or trusting the wrong thing. On the other hand Jesus does remind us to be wise and to look out for wolves in sheep's clothing so that we are not deceived.

Ezekiel 34

... What sorrow awaits you shepherds who feed yourselves instead of your flocks. Shouldn’t shepherds feed their sheep? 3 You drink the milk, wear the wool, and butcher the best animals, but you let your flocks starve. 4 You have not taken care of the weak. You have not tended the sick or bound up the injured. You have not gone looking for those who have wandered away and are lost. Instead, you have ruled them with harshness and cruelty. 5 So my sheep have been scattered without a shepherd, and they are easy prey for any wild animal. 6 They have wandered through all the mountains and all the hills, across the face of the earth, yet no one has gone to search for them.

7 “Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord: 8 As surely as I live, says the Sovereign Lord, you abandoned my flock and left them to be attacked by every wild animal. And though you were my shepherds, you didn’t search for my sheep when they were lost. You took care of yourselves and left the sheep to starve. 9 Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord. 10 This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I now consider these shepherds my enemies, and I will hold them responsible for what has happened to my flock. I will take away their right to feed the flock, and I will stop them from feeding themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths; the sheep will no longer be their prey.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

What is the knowledge of God? And what is the experiential knowledge of God?.

Interesting question. I think of a picture I saw in the newspaper recently, of Urban Meyer and Nick Saban shaking hands in the middle of a college gridiron, after the football game. Slightly behind them, and caught between between their faces by the camera lens, was a state trooper. But the trooper's face was partly hidden behind one coach, and you could also see that his eyes were obscured by the down-tilted brim of his "smokey bear" hat. He was as close to Nick and Urban as anyone could get, but he wisely knew he wasn't the story. So he managed to be there but not there, so to speak.

I think of this because Jesus told the three disciples who were with Him on the mountain in the transfiguration event not to mention it to anyone. And He elsewhere told them "don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing", and He also negatively mentioned the people who make a show of their supposed piety. We are sinners, here on earth: don't presume that just because you have seen or heard something real in Jesus Christ, that you are thereby someone of importance.

To me, the moral is don't trust yourself, while you are in the flesh. Don't make a show of your 'experiences', because if you do that proves they are probably vain. And don't trust a self-proclaimed 'world renowned expert' as Hank Hanegraaf called Gretchen Passantino in his introduction to her article. People who presume to be something will indeed get rewarded in this age, but don't trust that. We've seen too many shysters. Speaking of which, how many of my posts on this forum are vain puffery? Who knows -- perhaps a lot of it.

But at least in venues like this and to some extent in the actual assembly we may profitably examine the word together. To reason together in scripture; that is not vain to me but profitable. As long as nobody insists on elevation or primacy.

Originally Posted by OBW

I find that faith is often experienced and grown by those who seek to live according to their understanding of who God is and what he desires in this life (humans who bear his image in their lives) rather than to just dig for more useless facts and doctrines about all kinds of things that have little to do with living in this life. There is no "experience" in that. Just knowledge.

The speaking of God is essential, and what flows out in our living, especially that which endures beyond the first rush of excitement, is even more profitable. And hopefully our discussions with each other will reflect that. If something exists it should be evident. No one needs to promote their own experiences.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by aron

I think of this because Jesus told the three disciples who were with Him on the mountain in the transfiguration event not to mention it to anyone.

Yet the record is there in gospels, suggesting that Peter, James and John later told others of their experience to confirm that Jesus was indeed the Messiah. I think Jesus wanted them to hold off because his time wasn't yet. However when he rode into Jerusalem on a donkey, he accepted the worship of the people which confirmed that he was the Messiah perhaps because then it was his time to do so as Daniel had prophesied.

http://www.khouse.org/articles/2004/552/

And He elsewhere told them "don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing", and He also negatively mentioned the people who make a show of their supposed piety.

The context of this verse is in our personal giving to the Lord. However, in cases where God gives generously to us, restoring our brokenness and helping us to overcome our weaknesses, I do believe it is biblical to tell others of what God has done for us because it gives him glory and confirms that God cares and is willing to be involved in people's lives if only we would come to him. Jesus tells the man he healed and set free from demonic depression in Mark 5:19

"Go home to your own people and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and how he has had mercy on you."

Jesus also tells us that we're the light of the world and a city on a hill and to let our good deeds shine before men. It's interesting that there is a record of Barnabas in Acts selling his home and laying his offering at Apostles' feet (Acts 4:35-37). There is a public display of giving, but the spirit behind it was not to promote Barnabas, but to show how the glory of God was able to transform lives to selflessly give to one another.

Rahab's faith also began when she heard of stories of what God did for the Israelites, it was these testimonies that was the catalyst for her own salvation.

I didn't have much of a faith of my own growing up as a church kid, however I often enjoyed hearing testimonies from my grandmother and parents of stories of their faith. I think these stories helped me to hold on to my faith when I was tempted to consider if God was real throughout my youth.

I'm also interested in hearing stories of faith of those who have left the LCs. There are enough negative experiences/testimonies going around that I believe it would give many hope here that God is indeed living and working to restore lives post LC.

aron, I've much enjoyed your writings, but what has impacted me the most of your writings was your introductory testimony of how God transformed you from a rough life involved with drugs to someone who seriously pursues God today (http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...read.php?t=167). It's hard to believe that this was your background when I compare it to the person whose writings I read on this forum today.

As a church kid who was insulated from most of these things growing up, I'll never have such an interesting story to tell of a powerful story of transformation. But such powerful testimonies gives me hope and faith that God can transform and speak through the lives normal people including myself and others around me and not just self proclaimed spiritual giants such as Nee and Lee.

2 Cor 3:2-3
You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everyone. You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

[aron]

Originally Posted by bearbear

"Go home to your own people and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and how he has had mercy on you."

Jesus also tells us that we're the light of the world and a city on a hill and to let our good deeds shine before men. It's interesting that there is a record of Barnabas in Acts selling his home and laying his offering at Apostles' feet (Acts 4:35-37). There is a public display of giving, but the spirit behind it was not to promote Barnabas, but to show how the glory of God was able to transform lives to selflessly give to one another.

Rahab's faith also began when she heard of stories of what God did for the Israelites, it was these testimonies that was the catalyst for her own salvation..

Certainly we are to tell forth the glory of God's calling. The woman in Samaria who ran around telling everyone about how she had found the Christ is a powerful image. This led to many more people there meeting Jesus. John 4:39-42.

I guess I was thinking about a "deeper experience of Christ." Perhaps I was missing the point of your post. I often do that: ignore the theme and go right to whatever I have been thinking about that day.

Certainly we should testify. But the "mountaintop experience" is not for show.

Originally Posted by bearbear

I didn't have much of a faith of my own growing up as a church kid, however I often enjoyed hearing testimonies from my grandmother and parents of stories of their faith. I think these stories helped me to hold on to my faith when I was tempted to consider if God was real throughout my youth.

I'm also interested in hearing stories of faith of those who have left the LCs. There are enough negative experiences/testimonies going around that I believe it would give many hope here that God is indeed living and working to restore lives post LC.

aron, I've much enjoyed your writings, but what has impacted me the most of your writings was your introductory testimony of how God transformed you from a rough life involved with drugs to someone who seriously pursues God today (http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...read.php?t=167). It's hard to believe that this was your background when I compare it to the person whose writings I read on this forum today.

As a church kid who was insulated from most of these things growing up, I'll never have such an interesting story to tell of a powerful story of transformation. But such powerful testimonies gives me hope and faith that God can transform and speak through the lives normal people including myself and others around me and not just self proclaimed spiritual giants such as Nee and Lee.

2 Cor 3:2-3
You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everyone. You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

You have a much more interesting story than you realize, I bet. Certainly God is as interested in you, and your journey, as in mine.

But there is really only one story worth telling. And that is the story of a Man on Earth, who was always with His Father in heaven. The Son reveals to us the Father, and the Father tells us about His Son -- "This is my Beloved, in whom I delight. Hear Him." But the depth of this story is hidden. We could spend our lives pursuing it and maybe only get one inch deep. And certainly if we make a show of what we have seen and heard it indicates that we got nowhere. The flesh is no place for boasting, and waving things about.

Anyway, there is a very, very interesting story in front of us. All the so-called ministries, the moves of the Lord, the Body of Christ, various creeds and theologies, even miracles, if they detract or distract us from the story in front of us, should be treated very carefully. It is too easy to lose sight of Jesus Christ, standing at the right hand of the Father (or seated, or however you see it at the moment).

"We beheld His glory". To me, there is no other image, worth holding, here on earth. Everything true and good flows from that.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bearbear

aron, I've much enjoyed your writings, but what has impacted me the most of your writings was your introductory testimony of how God transformed you from a rough life involved with drugs to someone who seriously pursues God today (http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...read.php?t=167). It's hard to believe that this was your background when I compare it to the person whose writings I read on this forum today.

I too have marveled at the grace of God reading aron's testimony. Prior to reading it, I always held out a few reservations about when I had posted my own testimony on line, both with LSM and on this forum. But hey, it's our story, and it gives all the glory to God. Those who refuse to believe into His Son are the ones who will be put to shame.

[zeek]

According to Witness Lee, genuine experiences of Christ are always mysterious and certainty about them is a sign that they aren't real:

If you are certain that what you are experiencing is an experience of Christ, that is not normal, and you should question it. The only thing we can be sure of is our salvation. The more you are assured of salvation, the better. You should be able to say, "Praise the Lord that I have been saved! Heaven may pass away and the earth may be removed, but my salvation cannot be questioned. I have the full assurance of salvation." But the subtle enemy will not easily allow any to have the assurance of salvation. At every opportunity, he raises a question about this and causes doubt. But this doubt is the strongest assurance of salvation. If you have never doubted your salvation, it is an indication that you are probably not saved. Your doubt is the strongest confirmation and assurance that you are saved. Although Satan does not want us to have the assurance of salvation, he may push us to have the false assurance of other things. For example, some may say, "I have the assurance that I am an overcomer. Yesterday I received the assurance that I am among the firstfruit. By the Lord's grace, I am now one of the hundred forty-four thousand" (Rev. 14:1). We need to doubt this type of assurance. Do not have any assurance of your experience, for all experiences of Christ are mysterious. I believe that we all are now experiencing Christ, but in a mysterious way. The church is mysterious because the universal mystery is here. Thus, the church is a mystery within a mystery. (The Experience of Christ, Chapter 1, Section 5)

Based on this, when you are certain that you experienced Christ, you didn't but when you doubt that you have experienced Christ, you might have.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

According to Witness Lee, genuine experiences of Christ are always mysterious and certainty about them is a sign that they aren't real:



Based on this, when you are certain that you experienced Christ, you didn't but when you doubt that you have experienced Christ, you might have.

This experience Christ thing is so iffy. It's the reason Montanus was branded a heretic.

And the reason we have to consider the Bible the Word of God. Otherwise Christianity becomes wild, with everybody claiming divine revelations, all competing and contradictory. And would create lots of Witness Lee's, all claiming to be the oracle of God.

I also think there's some element of narcissism in it; "Look at me. I'm experiencing Christ."

[aron]

Originally Posted by zeek

According to Witness Lee, genuine experiences of Christ are always mysterious and certainty about them is a sign that they aren't real... when you are certain that you experienced Christ, you didn't but when you doubt that you have experienced Christ, you might have.

Based on this, how certain could Lee (or others) be of "exercising his mingled spirit"? By volume? Repetition? Arm waving?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

This experience Christ thing is so iffy. It's the reason Montanus was branded a heretic.

And the reason we have to consider the Bible the Word of God. Otherwise Christianity becomes wild, with everybody claiming divine revelations, all competing and contradictory. And would create lots of Witness Lee's, all claiming to be the oracle of God.

I also think there's some element of narcissism in it; "Look at me. I'm experiencing Christ."

Lee admits it is "iffy" by admitting it is uncertain. It is when it becomes certainty that it becomes wild. The oracle of God claim raises questions. If Lee was certain that he was the oracle of God but uncertain of his experiences of Christ what would that imply? If he was uncertain of being the oracle of God but he was claiming this to his followers, what would that imply? Worse, if fellowship was denied to those who questioned his oracular status even though he was uncertain of it. At any rate, these are questions and questions were discouraged. So, irony is that these are observations he was apparently allowed to make that he denied to the rest of us. Nevertheless, I think there is truth to be appreciated in the observations if we can get over the impugning the source.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by aron

Based on this, how certain could Lee (or others) be of "exercising his mingled spirit"? By volume? Repetition? Arm waving?

No more certain than the rest of us, I reckon. He did become critical of those external practices after encouraging them. Perhaps he felt like Frankenstein after he created the monster. What to do with him now?

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by awareness

This experience Christ thing is so iffy. It's the reason Montanus was branded a heretic.

And the reason we have to consider the Bible the Word of God. Otherwise Christianity becomes wild, with everybody claiming divine revelations, all competing and contradictory. And would create lots of Witness Lee's, all claiming to be the oracle of God.

I also think there's some element of narcissism in it; "Look at me. I'm experiencing Christ."

Isn't this the same kind of attitude the LC leadership had towards Jane Anderson culminating in the sisters rebellion? They were criticized for drawing attention to themselves and creating division when they were having their own experience of God leading them, when that was never their intention. To the pure all things are pure.

When I read Jane Anderson's testimony of her experience of God I didn't get the sense she was promoting herself but that she was sharing her experience so that others could be helped and encouraged, which it did for me at the time.

Interestingly, This is actually the whole premise of her book Thread of Gold:

"When your goal is to know
God, you will find an amazing thread of gold
being woven into the details of your life and
circumstances. That golden thread will be your
very own, unique, personal experience of Him.
You will come to know Him as One who takes
care of everything concerning you—from
commonplace things to the deeply significant
matters of the heart. I know Him as both the God
who takes care of my washing machine and the
God who wipes away my tears. In His way and
time, He will unfold the unique purpose He has
for your life. Ultimately, you and your thread of
gold will remain forever, perfectly woven
together with millions of others and their
threads of gold into God's masterpiece, and put
on display for eternity."

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by aron

Based on this, how certain could Lee (or others) be of "exercising his mingled spirit"? By volume? Repetition? Arm waving?

According to Paul's letter to Titus, Paul seems to base certainty of someone's testimony on evidence of Godly living.

Titus 1:16
"They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good."

Jesus also says wisdom is justified by her children and instructs that the test of a false teacher or prophet is if they bear bad fruit.

It's been said that the measure of a man is how he treats others who have nothing to give back. Perhaps this is one principle behind why God wants us to help the poor and bless our enemies.

The test for Witness Lee and others including ourselves could be in seeing how one treats his fellow brothers...

1 John 4:20
Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by bearbear

According to Paul's letter to Titus, Paul seems to base certainty of someone's testimony on evidence of Godly living.

Titus 1:16
"They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good."

Jesus also says wisdom is justified by her children and instructs that the test of a false teacher or prophet is if they bear bad fruit.

It's been said that the measure of a man is how he treats others who have nothing to give back. Perhaps this is one principle behind why God wants us to help the poor and bless our enemies.

The test for Witness Lee and others including ourselves could be in seeing how one treats his fellow brothers...

1 John 4:20
Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen.

By that criterion, it seems to me that many who claim to be Christian aren't and many who don't claim to be, are.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by zeek

By that criterion, it seems to me that many who claim to be Christian aren't and may who don't claim to be, are.

A scary thought and Jesus warned us that the first would be last and the last first. The prostitutes and tax collectors would enter heaven and the Pharisees who claimed God and Abraham were their father would be denied. Is history repeating itself again among self professed Christians who claim to know God but deny it based on the way they live? It seems like Jesus prophesies that many who call him Lord are in for a big surprise in Matthew 7:23 "I never knew you, away from me you evil doers!"

Whatever it is, I think it's at least a sober reminder to be humble because God gives grace to the humble but resists the proud.

[aron]

Originally Posted by bearbear

The prostitutes and tax collectors would enter heaven and the Pharisees who claimed God and Abraham were their father would be denied.

Matthew 21:31 "Which of the two did what his father wanted?" "The first," they answered. Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you."

Jesus didn't say that the Pharisees wouldn't enter, but that the tax collectors and the prostitutes would enter first.

Don't trust yourself, don't trust your experiences, and don't trust people who push themselves (or others) as the 'apostles of the age' or some other grandiose notions. Only trust God's mercy. God's mercy is the thread of gold that repeatedly finds us, even when we lose sight of God. (And even that, don't tempt by repeated sins!)

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by aron

Matthew 21:31 "Which of the two did what his father wanted?" "The first," they answered. Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you." Jesus didn't say that the Pharisees wouldn't enter, but that the tax collectors and the prostitutes would enter first.

That's a valid point and sorry I did refer to the verse incorrectly. It is an interesting verse because you would think the Pharisees who rejected Jesus would not be saved.

After some study, I realize this scripture may not be referring to heaven. The "entering" here is in the present tense, so Jesus could be referring to the kingdom of God that was presently in their midst and not the future home in the new heaven and earth prepared for those who belong to God. In this context, Jesus is saying that the publicans responded to the gospel before the Pharisees did. Some of the Pharisees did believe in Jesus eventually, but the majority didn't and probably died in their sins (John 8:24).

Later on in the chapter Jesus has harsher words for the Pharisees who would eventually lead the charge to crucify the Messiah:

Matt 23:41
"They said to Him, He will put those wretches to a miserable death and rent the vineyard to other tenants of such a character that they will give him the fruits promptly in their season."

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by aron

Don't trust yourself, don't trust your experiences, and don't trust people who push themselves (or others) as the 'apostles of the age' or some other grandiose notions. Only trust God's mercy. God's mercy is the thread of gold that repeatedly finds us, even when we lose sight of God. (And even that, don't tempt by repeated sins!)

1 Cor 13:12 (NLT)
Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely.

Our knowledge of God is in part until we see him face to face. Witness Lee gave the impression that if you followed him you would gain clear understanding of all the mysteries of God's divine revelation. I remember hearing during a video training when I was teenager when Lee compared the bible to a huge puzzle and that he was close to putting together all the pieces. But even Paul who was taken to heaven at one point said he didn't see clearly and only knew in part.

I also recall hearing Witness Lee say shortly before he died that he made many mistakes, but in matters of truth (teaching) he made none, perhaps because he believed he was the only one who could see clearly and the rest of us small potatoes were looking at fuzzy reflections in a mirror.

Yet I find nothing wrong with testimonies which demonstrate that God still loves us personally and cares for us as long as no one is advocating esoteric doctrines and drawing glory away from Jesus but simply confirming what scripture already states. There are enough promises in the New Testament which sound crazy to the logical mind that are hard enough to believe already.

Now if someone else like Witness Lee is coming along and claiming to have all the keys to unlock the secret mysteries of scripture and has the experiences to prove it, then I agree, yes be very afraid.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by bearbear

I remember hearing during a video training when I was teenager when Lee compared the bible to a huge puzzle and that he was close to putting together all the pieces.

Can we document this?

I said way back on the old bereans forum that Lee chopped the Bible into puzzle pieces and reassembled them to make a drawing that the Bible doesn't draw on its own. I said it disparagingly. And Lee bragged about it??? I'd love to document it.

Bro zeek is a master at digging up documentation on Lee. Maybe he can help. Or others may know when and where Lee said it.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by awareness

Can we document this?

I said way back on the old bereans forum that Lee chopped the Bible into puzzle pieces and reassembled them to make a drawing that the Bible doesn't draw on its own. I said it disparagingly. And Lee bragged about it??? I'd love to document it.

Bro zeek is a master at digging up documentation on Lee. Maybe he can help. Or others may know when and where Lee said it.

Here's a quote I found in the life study of Proverbs, Ecclesiastes and Song of Songs Ch.8 Section 2:

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.c...=M9FL49JRQ0MKS

"To understand the Bible is not easy. We have spent more than seventy years to study the Bible. The Bible is like a big jigsaw puzzle with thousands of pieces scattered throughout it. We need to put all the pieces together in order to have the complete picture. Brother Nee read through over three thousand classical Christian books on various subjects and collected many precious items, or "pieces," from them, which he passed on to me. During the past seventy years we have been putting together the pieces of this great "puzzle." Now we have a picture of the whole Bible, and we can see in a detailed way how God's redemption is related to His economy and how His redemption is carried out."

I distinctly remember also hearing something like this in a video training or conference, perhaps this life study was taken from that training or conference?

It's interesting to compare that last sentence with what Paul wrote in 1 Cor 13:9-12 (ESV) which directly states that we won't have a clear picture of everything until we see Jesus face to face.

"Now we have a picture of the whole Bible, and we can see in a detailed way how God's redemption is related to His economy and how His redemption is carried out."

vs.

"For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Here's a quote I found in the life study of Proverbs, Ecclesiastes and Song of Songs:

http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.c...=M9FL49JRQ0MKS

"To understand the Bible is not easy. We have spent more than seventy years to study the Bible. The Bible is like a big jigsaw puzzle with thousands of pieces scattered throughout it. We need to put all the pieces together in order to have the complete picture. Brother Nee read through over three thousand classical Christian books on various subjects and collected many precious items, or "pieces," from them, which he passed on to me. During the past seventy years we have been putting together the pieces of this great "puzzle." Now we have a picture of the whole Bible, and we can see in a detailed way how God's redemption is related to His economy and how His redemption is carried out."

Could it be that Lee was obsessed with the Bible the way Tolkien was obsessed with "Middle Earth"? Just who did this man think he was, anyway?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Could it be that Lee was obsessed with the Bible the way Tolkien was obsessed with "Middle Earth"? Just who did this man think he was, anyway?

Before bb found it I was searching Ministrybooks.org for it. And I concluded just what you are claiming, that, Witness Lee was obsessed with the Bible. We've got to give him that, for whatever it's worth. But I did find a lot of messages where Lee was "puzzled" about the Bible.

This thread is about "Faith through experiential knowledge of God," (more on that later). But Lee was more about faith through knowledge of the Bible.

That was Lee's basic premise. And I posit that that premise is where Lee went wrong. That you can't take writings that came out of the bronze and iron age to figure out what God is doing today. So far, everyone that has tried it, going back a millennium and a half, have failed.

A year or two ago I look out and see JWs coming to my door. There were 3 of them. I knew that the one that had come to my door many times was bringing the big guns to deal with me. I'm in my underwear.

Before they get a chance to knock on my door I bust out the door. I say with great fanfare, "Why would anyone join the Jehovah's Witnesses? Since William Miller in the 19th century the JWs have been wrong thousands of times. Why would anyone join a group that has been nothing but wrong since their inception?" All three of them went back on their heels.

I think I was talking to myself.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

A year or two ago I look out and see JWs coming to my door. There were 3 of them. I knew that the one that had come to my door many times was bringing the big guns to deal with me. I'm in my underwear.

Before they get a chance to knock on my door I bust out the door. I say with great fanfare, "Why would anyone join the Jehovah's Witnesses? Since William Miller in the 19th century the JWs have been wrong thousands of times. Why would anyone join a group that has been nothing but wrong since their inception?" All three of them went back on their heels.

I think I was talking to myself.

awareness in his Jockeys ... accosting the JDubs ... what a scene!

[aron]

Originally Posted by bearbear

"To understand the Bible is not easy. We have spent more than seventy years to study the Bible. The Bible is like a big jigsaw puzzle with thousands of pieces scattered throughout it. We need to put all the pieces together in order to have the complete picture. Brother Nee read through over three thousand classical Christian books on various subjects and collected many precious items, or "pieces," from them, which he passed on to me. During the past seventy years we have been putting together the pieces of this great "puzzle." Now we have a picture of the whole Bible, and we can see in a detailed way how God's redemption is related to His economy and how His redemption is carried out."

"We need to put all the pieces together in order to have the complete picture.... Now we have a picture of the whole Bible, and we can see in a detailed way"

I think it is really an admirable goal, and nobody can fault Mssrs Lee et al for the effort put forth. But to claim a complete and detailed picture is farcical. To me that is a third-grader's crayon drawing claiming to be a complete schematic for a nuclear reactor. We are so far from God here in the flesh that to wave something in the air, available for cash money, as the consummate pathway to nirvana and bliss, is ridiculous. Ridiculous. Remember that Lee was a merchandizer; of course it helped that he actually believed in his snake oil, but that was merely to increase sales, ultimately.

Paul said, "we have not yet laid hold... we see darkly"... how much less in so many ways do we, centuries later. Paul had access to manuscripts now lost, and also to the oral tradition, only hinted at here and there in the ancient writings. To think that we have the complete pieces of the puzzle is presumptuous in the extreme.

I think it's good to speculate, and I do. (I am trying to do it quietly and with less fanfare, to avoid stumbling people). But we should put forth our ideas as provisional, and acknowledge their shortcomings. And we should also come back continually to the real truth, that God loved us and sent His Son, and that we should love one another as we love ourselves. Just as Jesus gave Himself for us in our sinful states, so should each of us who name Him attempt to give ourselves for one another. Our puzzle-building should only point at that unique and singular truth which we own, here on earth... it should never distract us. Our "looking away unto Jesus" should never look beyond the love that God has for our neighbor.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

Can we document this?

I said way back on the old bereans forum that Lee chopped the Bible into puzzle pieces and reassembled them to make a drawing that the Bible doesn't draw on its own. I said it disparagingly. And Lee bragged about it??? I'd love to document it.

Bro zeek is a master at digging up documentation on Lee. Maybe he can help. Or others may know when and where Lee said it.

Lee often said that the vision of God's economy was contained in the Bible like a jigsaw puzzle. Here's another example:

In the Bible no one chapter is so complete in revealing God's economy to us, but a little is here, a little is there, piece after piece, like a big puzzle. All the pieces are scattered and mixed up, so you need to spend many hours to put the pieces together. Then you can see the picture. (Perfecting Training, Chapter 16, Section 1)

[awareness]

Thanks bb, aron, and Zeek.

This whole "the Bible is a puzzle" thing is completely out of whack. And it's makes God out to be a wack.

The two foundational premises are, 1) The Bible is God's Word, and 2) God hides little secrets here and there in it, that have to be found, and reassembled to understand what God is telling us.

The reason it makes God out to be a wacko is that it establishes that God is a trickster, that's unable to come out and just tell us what he means in plain coherent words and passages.

And I don't believe this about God. I believe this whole process, that Lee claims, of reassembling Bible puzzle pieces, is the work of a con man, that's trying to bedazzle everyone with eccentric Bible knowledge.

These premises are tried and true, and have been used ad nauseam down thru the ages. Ultimately, as it turns out, to fleece the sheep.

And that's the reason Witness Lee failed at every business venture he tried except his Stream ministry ... and his conferences, or those of LSM, cost more than going to a star studded rock concert. It's the cost of entertainment ... of a wacko God ... er, ah, a con man; now the con of a system, that has both mass and momentum. Maybe we should call them, Sleight-of-hand-puzzle-masters.

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

This whole "the Bible is a puzzle" thing is completely out of whack. And it's makes God out to be a wack.

The two foundational premises are, 1) The Bible is God's Word, and 2) God hides little secrets here and there in it, that have to be found, and reassembled to understand what God is telling us.

The reason it makes God out to be a wacko is that it establishes that God is a trickster, that's unable to come out and just tell us what he means in plain coherent words and passages.

And I don't believe this about God...

God is a rewarder of those who come forward to Him, and that includes thorough study of the Holy Writ. So I somewhat understand Lee's motivational background here, and his stated aims, and sympathize. But I don't like where he took it.

Let me re-state my argument. Lee told us that Nee had read some 3,000 sources and put together a kind of composite picture. So far so good. Nee could be said to have done a kind of work of research.

But the argument continues, that once Nee put together a synopsis of previous scholarship, then there was no further scholarship of value. There was no further need to either look back, or forward. It is like a time machine, stuck in the late 19th century. So to claim the definitive present picture, based on 100-year-old scholarship, put together by an admittedly bright guy but one without peer review, and furthered by a myopic group who refused to entertain any other ideas for the better part of a century, is just an insult to the reader.

As I said earlier, it is a confidence game in which the promoter of the idea puts something out with the flimsiest of basis, claims that "it is so", and blithely goes on from there to construct his/her edifice. It would never hold up to peer review for one second. And, here's the rub: it claims to be based on good scholarship! The 19th century scholars were good; I've read some of them, and am a fan. But number one THEY were open to the give-and-take of peer review, and number two the world has gone on.

So I repeat my claim that Lee's theological puzzle-building scheme, though better than something I could have done (I lack both patience and energy for systematic theology) is as far from the "consummation" or "state-of-the-art" of current Christian scholarship as a grade-school schematic is from graduate school work. It's ludicrous to make such grandiose claims for it.

Lee probably believed what he said, and what he wrote, I'll give him credit for that. But he built an edifice in which he HAD to believe his claims. Everything was built on the supposition that he, Lee, was giving forth the penultimate and definitive word. To have considered otherwise would have put the whole enterprise into question. And we know that can never happen! "And it fell, and great was the fall of it" (Matt 7:27 NASB)

So, to give him credit, how could Lee have said anything other than what he did? At least he was being "true to the vision" that Nee gave him. He was consistent in that regard, anyway.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by aron

God is a rewarder of those who come forward to Him, and that includes thorough study of the Holy Writ. So I somewhat understand Lee's motivational background here, and his stated aims, and sympathize. But I don't like where he took it.

Let me re-state my argument. Lee told us that Nee had read some 3,000 sources and put together a kind of composite picture. So far so good. Nee could be said to have done a kind of work of research.

But the argument continues, that once Nee put together a synopsis of previous scholarship, then there was no further scholarship of value. There was no further need to either look back, or forward. It is like a time machine, stuck in the late 19th century. So to claim the definitive present picture, based on 100-year-old scholarship, put together by an admittedly bright guy but one without peer review, and furthered by a myopic group who refused to entertain any other ideas for the better part of a century, is just an insult to the reader.

As I said earlier, it is a confidence game in which the promoter of the idea puts something out with the flimsiest of basis, claims that "it is so", and blithely goes on from there to construct his/her edifice. It would never hold up to peer review for one second. And, here's the rub: it claims to be based on good scholarship! The 19th century scholars were good; I've read some of them, and am a fan. But number one THEY were open to the give-and-take of peer review, and number two the world has gone on.

So I repeat my claim that Lee's theological puzzle-building scheme, though better than something I could have done (I lack both patience and energy for systematic theology) is as far from the "consummation" or "state-of-the-art" of current Christian scholarship as a grade-school schematic is from graduate school work. It's ludicrous to make such grandiose claims for it.

Lee probably believed what he said, and what he wrote, I'll give him credit for that. But he built an edifice in which he HAD to believe his claims. Everything was built on the supposition that he, Lee, was giving forth the penultimate and definitive word. To have considered otherwise would have put the whole enterprise into question. And we know that can never happen! "And it fell, and great was the fall of it" (Matt 7:27 NASB)

So, to give him credit, how could Lee have said anything other than what he did? At least he was being "true to the vision" that Nee gave him. He was consistent in that regard, anyway.

When you think about it, unless you are standing outside of the Leecal Church, you are not in a position to evaluate it. On the inside you weren't supposed to think about it. You were expected to receive it without reservation, to eat it and drink it in as spiritual food. To question or it would immediately imply that you were eating from the "wrong tree." i never heard him say anything like, "Think about it ..." So, however you evaluate Lee now, you stand below and judged by his standard.

Not that that should bother anyone. There is no compelling reason to accept his standard that I can recall.

In the absence of good reasons, it now seems I must have been near despair to have thrown in with Lee et al when I did. Consciously I was seeking higher spirituality. Situationally, I was looking forward to an ostensibly positive life transition [ college graduation, career, marriage.] Better to make a leap of faith than to look at inexorable existential uncertainties such a transition entails.

The Leecal Church helped me to avoid the ambiguities by providing a ready made system of values that I didn't have to... no, was exhorted not to think about and a pre-existing social group to apply them to. But, at what price? Counting the cost seemed too calculating in the face of the call of God. The Bible said it was going to cost everything, and only the Leecal Church was asking me to take God up on the deal.

[aron]

Originally Posted by zeek

The Leecal Church helped me to avoid the ambiguities by providing a ready made system of values that I didn't have to... no, was exhorted not to think about and a pre-existing social group to apply them to. But, at what price?

It was like a room full of mirrors: when you're inside, it makes perfect sense. Everything has its point of reference, which is simply another mirror. The fact that there's no fixed point and the 'apostle' churns out new revelations and goals for the faithful is usually side-stepped. The assembly is shouting "amen" and your still, small voice within struggles to be heard. Even the "turmoils" and "rebellions" manage to hang there in the room of mirrors. Amazing, really.

Stepping outside the LC framework, for "an experiential knowledge of God", as bearbear initially presented us, my answer today is simply a person named Jesus, who's both Lord and Christ. There's no knowledge that I can see as a Christian, outside this One. It is really very simple: it is not a "ground of the church", a "vision of the Body", a "ministry of the age", a "dispensing" or "God's economy" template (or any other teaching); it is not even some exalted and "consummated vision" like the New Jerusalem. It is a person, or rather a Person, sent to us by the Father God in Heaven. There was a Man on this earth, whose life we can never (so I assert) truly fathom in all of its profound depth, but who we may profitably spend our days gazing at, and peering into, as Mary did, there at His feet.

There is no God apart from Jesus Christ. Essentially, as I see it, we have 3+ years on record, with multiple witnesses. We have the OT texts, in which the prophets foretold and which Christ fulfilled in that 3 year span. We have the NT commentaries (epistles) and Acts and Revelation of John as supporting and reinforcing material. And we have the Church Fathers and onward, an unbroken stream of commentary. To me, everything points toward those 3+ years that He was here. All the prophecy pointed to that experience, the 3 days in the heart of the earth was overcome by that experience, and the glory that followed, followed and glorified that experience. We here in this flesh should never, I argue, be distracted by "processed" this and "consummated" that. In ages hence perhaps we will see other things, but on this side of the Bema, while living in this dark valley of death, it is wise not to go beyond what God has given us. And God has given us His Son, Jesus. The apostles handled Him, heard Him and beheld Him, and recognized and marveled at God's saving love, for those 3 wonderful and amazing years. The texts allow us to do the same.

I know that I spent much time recently, writing on John's Revelation scenes (the throne, the seven Spirits and so forth) but in all of that fantastic scenery I believe that there was the Man who'd spent 3+ years with John. He was at that point nearly unrecognizable to the aged apostle, His glory was so immense, but nonetheless everything there in Revelation 1 was arguably there in the first chapter of the 4th gospel, when the Baptizer recommended Jesus, who was then yet relatively or wholly unknown, as the Lamb of God, to two of his mystified but curious disciples.

To me, our meetings, our discussions, should center on this Person, and how He brought us back to the Father. What other experience is there? More and more I feel that everything else points to this, or it distracts us from this. This is our lodestone, our fixed point in the assembly.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by aron

It was like a room full of mirrors: when you're inside, it makes perfect sense. Everything has its point of reference, which is simply another mirror. The fact that there's no fixed point and the 'apostle' churns out new revelations and goals for the faithful is usually side-stepped. The assembly is shouting "amen" and your still, small voice within struggles to be heard. Even the "turmoils" and "rebellions" manage to hang there in the room of mirrors. Amazing, really.

Right, but for me, I was walking around in the presence of the Lord in a way that I cannot say that I am now.

Stepping outside the LC framework, for "an experiential knowledge of God", as bearbear initially presented us, my answer today is simply a person named Jesus, who's both Lord and Christ. There's no knowledge that I can see as a Christian, outside this One. It is really very simple: it is not a "ground of the church", a "vision of the Body", a "ministry of the age", a "God's economy" template (or any other teaching); it is not even some exalted and "consummated vision" like the New Jerusalem. It is a person, or rather a Person, sent to us by the Father God in Heaven. There was a Man on this earth, whose life we can never (so I assert) truly fathom in all of its profound depth, but who we may profitably spend our days gazing at, and peering into, as Mary did, there at His feet.

There is no God apart from Jesus Christ. Essentially, as I see it, we have 3+ years on record, with multiple witnesses. We have the OT texts, in which the prophets foretold and which Christ fulfilled in that 3 year span. We have the NT commentaries (epistles) and Acts and Revelation of John as supporting and reinforcing material. And we have the Church Fathers and onward, an unbroken stream of commentary. To me, everything points toward those 3+ years that He was here. All the prophecy pointed to that experience, the 3 days in the heart of the earth was overcome by that experience, and the glory that followed, followed and glorified that. We here in this flesh should never, I argue, be distracted by "processed" this and "consummated" that. In ages hence perhaps we will see other things, but on this side of the Bema, while living in this dark valley of death, it is wise not to go beyond what God has given us. And God has given us His Son, Jesus. The apostles handled Him, heard Him and beheld Him. The texts allow us to do the same.

I know that I spent much time recently, writing on John's Revelation scenes (the throne, the seven Spirits and so forth) but in all of that fantastic scenery I believe that there was a Man who had spent 3+ years with John. He was at that point nearly unrecognizable to the aged apostle, His glory was so immense, but nonetheless everything there in Revelation 1 was arguably there in the first chapter of the 4th gospel, when the Baptizer recommended Jesus, who was there yet relatively or wholly unknown, as the Lamb of God, to two of his mystified but curious disciples.

To me, our meetings, our discussions, should center on this Person, and how He brought us back to the Father. What else is there? Everything else points to this, or it distracts us from this.

To me, that's all symbolic language. I read Revelation recently and I was struck by how the vision in chapter four is a mandela--a symbol of ultimate wholeness.

[aron]

Originally Posted by zeek

To me, that's all symbolic language. I read Revelation recently and I was struck by how the vision in chapter four is a mandela--a symbol of ultimate wholeness.

Words are just symbols.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by aron

Words are just symbols.

True, but I meant symbolic in the sense of pointing beyond the denotative meaning toward an eternal and spiritual reality or idea.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

I read Revelation recently and I was struck by how the vision in chapter four is a mandela--a symbol of ultimate wholeness.

Must be a stereogram or something. I tried to see the mandala but couldn't. Are you sure you're not seeing things? Maybe we all see different things when reading Rev. 4. Maybe there's as many ways to see it as there are seers of it. Maybe symbols aren't as universal as we'd like 'em to be.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

True, but I meant symbolic in the sense of pointing beyond the denotative meaning toward an eternal and spiritual reality or idea.

Doesn't that go back to at least Plato?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

Must be a stereogram or something. I tried to see the mandala but couldn't. Are you sure you're not seeing things? Maybe we all see different things when reading Rev. 4. Maybe there's as many ways to see it as there are seers of it. Maybe symbols aren't as universal as we'd like 'em to be.

It's described as a series of concentric circles with the one sitting on the throne in the center. I am seeing things. You're the one who isn't. Maybe you've gone blind.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

Doesn't that go back to at least Plato?

No, eternity goes back even before Plato.

[awareness]

Okay I'm blind. I don't see Nelson Mandela in Rev. 4. Rev 4 is a kaleidoscope of symbols.

But back to Faith through experiential knowledge of God.

If we have experiential knowledge of God why do we need faith?

[Dave]

Originally Posted by awareness

Okay I'm blind. I don't see Nelson Mandela in Rev. 4.

But back to Faith through experiential knowledge of God.

If we have experiential knowledge of God why do we need faith?

You can't have "experiential" knowledge of God without faith because even if you have an experience which you attribute to God you need to have faith that it was an experience of God. Otherwise it would be an experience of something else. Even though Paul was struck down and blinded by Jesus in the end when Ananias came to him Paul had to have faith that that experience was of God. Maybe he was struck by lightening but it became an experience of God because he believed it was of God.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Dave

You can't have "experiential" knowledge of God without faith because even if you have an experience which you attribute to God you need to have faith that it was an experience of God. Otherwise it would be an experience of something else. Even though Paul was struck down and blinded by Jesus in the end when Ananias came to him Paul had to have faith that that experience was of God. Maybe he was struck by lightening but it became an experience of God because he believed it was of God.

Right, it's experiential knowledge of God through faith.

[awareness]

But Paul was on his way to Damascus to kill or capture Christians. Where was faith in that? The light and voice struck Paul when he was having anti-faith, or no faith at all. Paul had a experience of God without faith. So once again, if we have experiential knowledge of God why do we need faith? Paul didn't.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

But Paul was on his way to Damascus to kill or capture Christians. Where was faith in that? The light and voice struck Paul when he was having anti-faith, or no faith at all. Paul had a experience of God without faith. So once again, if we have experiential knowledge of God why do we need faith? Paul didn't.

Sure Saul had faith. He saw a great light, he fell to the round, he heard a voice calling him, and he said, "who are You, Lord?"

An unbelieving atheist would have simply thought that he had just crashed a Hollywood movie scene.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sure Saul had faith. He saw a great light, he fell to the round, he heard a voice calling him, and he said, "who are You, Lord?"

An unbelieving atheist would have simply thought that he had just crashed a Hollywood movie scene.

But atheists can have spiritual experiences too. Barbara Ehrenreich is a case in point. It happens to them just like it happened to Saul/Paul, it comes over them. And they don't have any faith that causes it.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Dave

You can't have "experiential" knowledge of God without faith because even if you have an experience which you attribute to God you need to have faith that it was an experience of God. Otherwise it would be an experience of something else. Even though Paul was struck down and blinded by Jesus in the end when Ananias came to him Paul had to have faith that that experience was of God. Maybe he was struck by lightening but it became an experience of God because he believed it was of God.

If you think about it, Ananias was that one more person involved in Paul's experience that confirmed the Damascus incident was from the resurrected Jesus and not a random hallucination. Also, as stated Paul was blinded after the incident so his vision had a tangible effect on him.

God spoke to Ananais to seek out Paul and to lay hands on him, Paul likewise also received a vision that a man named Ananais would come and lay hands on him (Acts 9:12). It was only after Paul was prayed for in the name of Jesus (Acts 9:17) that the scales fell off his eyes. Since all Christians were afraid of Paul at the time, Ananais himself had to have strong conviction that Jesus was leading him to Paul. So there were many other events that followed which pointed to the Damascus incident being of Jesus.

Scripture says evidence has to be established on account of two or three witnesses, and we see this pattern in the New Testament for extraordinary visions. Three witnesses saw Jesus transfigured and glorified by God.

And Jesus didn't appear to one person at a time after he resurrected, but to multiple people at the same time. Jesus' disciples were eyewitness to him doing the same thing such as eating fish (Luke 24:41-43), or allowing Thomas to touch his sides. Were they all hallucinating the same thing corporately?

I find this interesting because I know of people and cases where there were multiple confirmations that God wanted them to do something when it came to a life changing decision such as quit their jobs and start an orphanage in Mexico.

And regarding faith, it's interesting that many Christians equate gospel preaching with "witnessing to others". A sister of my friend once said "I'm so glad you are witnessing to my brother" in reference to my feeble attempts to share the gospel. At that time the Lord convicted me of what exactly was I witness to and trying to sell my friend on? Just knowledge that Jesus is God and loves you and is the only way to heaven? I realized my need to be an actual witness to what God had done in my life.

In Acts 5, the Sanhedrin arrests Peter and other disciples and charges them not to preach in the name of Jesus. They face enormous pressure to stop, but they can't help themselves because they can't deny what they saw while they were with Jesus.

Acts 5:32
"We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.""

2 Peter 1:16-17
For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.

[aron]

There is only one person whose experiential knowledge of God is valuable, here. And I'll give you a clue: it ain't you nor me nor Witnesses Lee!

Second clue: we're not called Christian for nothing.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by aron

There is only one person whose experiential knowledge of God is valuable, here. And I'll give you a clue: it ain't you nor me nor Witnesses Lee!

Second clue: we're not called Christian for nothing.

The answer is Jesus who abides in the Father's love, is also himself God, who lives in us through the Holy Spirit, who also loves each of us personally and invites us to share in the experience of God's love

Eph 3:18-19 NLT
And may you have the power to understand, as all God’s people should, how wide, how long, how high, and how deep his love is. May you experience the love of Christ, though it is too great to understand fully. Then you will be made complete with all the fullness of life and power that comes from God.