*Lurkers Only*: Now's Your Chance

[OBW]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I double ditto that !!! One of the first things I discovered about myself is after I started meeting other believers was that the corrupted LC mentality sneaked in on me and suddenly I felt like I 'knew' a lot more than everyone else ! Purging that mindset took a lot of work. While going to 'church' and getting involved in fellowship groups, I also attended a few LC meetings since there is an LC here in this town I live in. But after attending a few meetings, as nice and genuine people were, I could not stand the HWMRs and the little bells that were rung after someone's 'prophesy' or whatever they call it now.

It was just awful!!! The Presence of God was not there. God may love the individuals but The anointing on the LC departed a long time ago.
The good memories of the early days for me, will remain in me just as the memories of growing up Catholic remain in me. But that was then. This is now and I am looking forward to a Glorious future with Christ and His Beloved.

Little bells being rung? I never heard of that. Does anyone know if this is a regular practice or just a peculiarity of a locality or two?

But I sort of like bells ringing. It means an angel is getting his/her wings.

One comment on the "presence of God." It is likely that CMW is speaking of a real sense of the presence of God. But sometimes I think that we still fall back into needing some sensation like we used to get in the LRC to mean "presence of God." Since they don't do things the same way, the old sensation is gone. And since we have a different perspective, it is likely that the old sensation would still be gone even if everything was still the same.

But there is "presence of God" in the most quiet and pious worship you can find. The style may not be your cup of tea (or mine). But God is there in their midst. Everything from the almost off-the-wall old-school Pentecostals (not meaning that in a derogatory way) to the most liturgical (and much to the chagrin of some here — and I understand it — including the Catholics), God is there when believers meet. His presence is not based on the antics of our worship or the number of missionaries we send out to convert the earth. Or the perfection of our doctrine and practice. It is based on the heart of the believer.

But I have heard about the deterioration of that favorite LRC practice for many of us in recent years. It is the death of spontaneity in the testimonies. Not that spontaneity is magical. But there was something real in the participants even if the practice was not all that we were told it was.

I think this is mention to the use of the piano, a guitar strum, or similar to end prophecies. Usually their is a sharing by one or two brothers whereby the go through an outline, then "overflow" from the sharing. You are expected to wrap up your sharing within the next sentence or so before sitting down.

I think the irony of this is that frequently the leading brothers would go over time-I'm sure they try their best not to and have people keeping track, but it happens with great degree of regularity. I recall one young people's conference where the speaking brother was so inspired by so point(I remember it not! and back then I was really trying to pay attention). What I do remember is that we were held nearly an hour past the time this meeting was supposed to be over. Many folks were griping about wanting to go swimming or whatever at the hotel(which was something the leading brothers tried to keep us from doing).

Strange strange. I wonder about some of the people I sort of knew well there. Had we have met elsewhere, maybe we would have been good friends.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

Little bells being rung? I never heard of that. Does anyone know if this is a regular practice or just a peculiarity of a locality or two?

It is common LC practice. You get to stand and speak an allotted time, usually 1 minute, then they ring a bell or strike a piano chord and then you sit back down.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by aron

It is common LC practice. You get to stand and speak an allotted time, usually 1 minute, then they ring a bell or strike a piano chord and then you sit back down.

I left in 1978 and nothing of that nature was going on during the 9 years I was in the LC. I wonder if they are following the Plymouth Brethren practice if they have one. In any case, although it sounds restrictive sometimes something like that is essential. It's just outside of my frame of reference but provides some insight as to the inter-workings of the meetings of the LC.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Dave

I left in 1978 and nothing of that nature was going on during the 9 years I was in the LC. I wonder if they are following the Plymouth Brethren practice if they have one. In any case, although it sounds restrictive sometimes something like that is essential. It's just outside of my frame of reference but provides some insight as to the inter-workings of the meetings of the LC.

This practice of keeping time for testimonies/prophecies is quite common from what I've seen. From what I understand, in the old days people would sometimes give long-winded testimonies about whatever, so this whole idea of "prophesying" developed where everyone is supposed to speak from the same material.

Unregistered, you asked earlier about what would be helpful to those wanting to recover from the LC. I don't have any solid advice to give you or suggestions on what to read here, however, I think you are doing the right thing by asking questions or bringing up things that may have been troubling you in the LC. That is exactly what has helped me, not so much knowing what would be the right thing to do next, but feeling free to come here and discuss the things that I have always been bothered about in the LC.

This topic of prophesying is a prime example of that. I used to think that the LC was really something special, because they allow everyone to speak and have "open meetings". That can be a good thing, don't get me wrong, however, the way it is put into practice really negates any benefit. I have been to so many meetings where I was bored out of my mind listening to everyone share the same points over and over. At the same time, I would hear everyone say how "enjoyable" that meeting was. There was such a disconnect between what people would say and how I really felt inside. Once I started to realize that this disconnect wasn't my fault or something that I was doing wrong, it really helped me to stop putting so much blame on myself.

Regardless of whether or not it is a good idea to have an "open meeting", the LC doesn't really understand that their format doesn't work well. Why do meetings always go over time? Well you can't reasonably expect 100+ people to share a few minutes each in 1-1.5 hours. Sometimes they try to counteract this problem by splitting up into small groups. This has the opposite effect where everyone is pressured to share longer than they are comfortable with.

All of that doesn't even take into consideration whether or not the content of what everyone shares is beneficial or not. Many (even most) times it is not. Reading outline points or an excerpt rarely benefits anyone since that can be done on everyone's own time. Also, when people stand up and dump their problems on everyone, that is not beneficial either, and I personally get irritated when people do that. It's not that I don't care about what others are going through, it's just not the time or place for that. When brothers start pressuring people to share, it can be very uncomforatable for many. I visited a church once where it looked like one of the elders was keeping track of who had shared and who hadn't.

1 Cor 14:31 is used to justify the LC practice of prophesying ("For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged."). What always caught my attention about this verse is that uses the word can, not the word must. Is can the LC practice, or is it must? It usually seems like the latter. This practice is not well suited for big meetings and it is surprising that not more are bothered by it. When so much of the LC revolves around these flawed practices, it comes as no surprised that we get so messed up inside. There have been many times when I feel so distant from the Lord. When I look at the content of most meetings it comes as no surprise now. When people have the chance to basically say a few sentences before having to sit down, how is anyone expected to gain anything beneficial other than what someone may have "enjoyed"? Anyways, sorry for being so long-winded here. Hope this helps.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

Little bells being rung? I never heard of that. Does anyone know if this is a regular practice or just a peculiarity of a locality or two?

At the Anaheim trainings, the piano player would press a key when time was up. I never saw this in small localities. Initially it was just a way to enable more people to speak.

I never got my bell rung because I had learned to be "short, quick, living, and to the point." Kind of like my posts.

Let's face it, not many congregations even let their attendants speak, so the LC practice should be applauded. What was more concerning was the lack of spiritual substance listening to so many popups. Kind of like the difference between listening to popcorn pop vs. the smell of a hearty turkey dinner.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Let's face it, not many congregations even let their attendants speak, so the LC practice should be applauded. What was more concerning was the lack of spiritual substance listening to so many popups. Kind of like the difference between listening to popcorn pop vs. the smell of a hearty turkey dinner.

My take on letting everyone speak is that it is mainly appealing to those who actually stand up and speak. And that is because you get kudos for doing it. A kind of approval that strokes the ego.

As for the preference for the regular open forum, I believe there are places for it, but a general meeting is typically not that place. We like it as Americans partly because it appeals to our sense of self-government (even if we don't recognize it that way). I still assert that there is nothing the scripture that provides for open mic time in the meeting. And I know that some disagree with me on it. But even 1 Cor 14 (in my opinion) does not provide for it despite everything Lee said about that particular verse.

I can't simply applaud the LRC practice for 2 reasons. First, as stated above, I do not see any directive in that direction in scripture, therefore no preference for it. Second, too much of the effect of the practice was me feeling good about myself and my experience and getting strokes for it. And when you look at the whole system of the LRC that ensnares its membership, that is one of the perks that makes you think it is superior, and that makes you think you are superior.

Besides, no matter how much of the Bible you read, to the extent that those testimonies were or are a part of the discussion of doctrine and Biblical truth, there should be something other than the repetition of a singular position with no alternate considered, even if for the purpose of proving it wrong. If we assume that everyone is going to say only things that support the premises of the underlying message (whether spoken or written) then it is pointless. It is just a way to reinforce a position without any reflection on the merits of the position. And feel good about doing it just because you did it, not because it was right.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

My take on letting everyone speak is that it is mainly appealing to those who actually stand up and speak. And that is because you get kudos for doing it. A kind of approval that strokes the ego.

Sorry, but you missed the mark completely.

The spiritual and eternal value is two-fold. The first is all the time spent in the word of God and in prayer struggling to find something valuable to minister to others. The second is the anointing while speaking for the Lord.

Few times did I ever get kudos from the saints, and almost never did I get my ego messaged.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sorry, but you missed the mark completely.

The spiritual and eternal value is two-fold. The first is all the time spent in the word of God and in prayer struggling to find something valuable to minister to others. The second is the anointing while speaking for the Lord.

Few times did I ever get kudos from the saints, and almost never did I get my ego messaged.

Both you and And OBW are correct Ohio... In the locality I was in, there were people who gave off the wall testimonies that had nothing to do with the message or what the Lord had shown them. But because some of them had self esteem problems, by getting up and saying something... even if it was stupid, the person standing up got the attention from the saints.

That said, there were many more times when a person spoke, the anointing of the LORD was very strong on that person and we ALL benefited from their testimony. Sometimes the prayer meetings were awesome. Prayers were built upon prayers...like stacked up.

This now brings me to talk about a movie that came out in 1989 called 'Glory'. It was about the civil war and a young white yankee captain recruited black men to join the union. They were treated badly at first but the captain (Matthew Broderick) did all he could to get them shoes and clothes and supplies they needed that were initially not given to them.

Towards the end of the movie, they are going to go to battle and their chances of winning that battle are slim to none. The camera now focuses on the black men gathered around in a tent or around a campfire. It's sort of quiet..and then one begins to speak the Word of God. Everyone agrees. It is followed by some humming and now someone else speaks another Word...says a prayer... "YES! UH -HUH"... more humming/singing.. There was such spiritual unity.

Honestly folks... it so reminded me of our testimonies in the LC. Check out the movie. It is heart wrenching but well worth watching.

Blessings everyone... we all need them!
Carol

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Both you and And OBW are correct Ohio... In the locality I was in, there were people who gave off the wall testimonies that had nothing to do with the message or what the Lord had shown them. But because some of them had self esteem problems, by getting up and saying something... even if it was stupid, the person standing up got the attention from the saints.

That said, there were many more times when a person spoke, the anointing of the LORD was very strong on that person and we ALL benefited from their testimony. Sometimes the prayer meetings were awesome. Prayers were built upon prayers...like stacked up.

I have seen instances of both. Many times the saints who are quieter or those who don't stand up often tend to get lauded. It's not something that's overt, but it's obvious when everyone is impressed with someone speaking. When I went to the semi-annual trainings, the "testing" at the end of messages was nothing less that a performance. When a group went up to get tested and they followed each other well, they would get kudos. I remember that often when the testing had concluded, everyone in the room would start clapping, and the brothers would reprimand everyone saying "we don't clap in the church life". Despite their words, the reaction of the audience always proved that everyone saw it as a performance.

On the other hand, I can say that knowing I might be asked to speak in a meeting has helped me at times to actually spend more time in the word than I would have otherwise. I feel like at times I have spoken things that really were beneficial and of the Lord. Over time, when I realized that the brothers usually prefer everyone to just "re-speak" points that they enjoyed, I started to gravitate towards saying what they would want to hear, rather than what I had really enjoyed. This kind of speaking isn't genuine, and I'm sorry to say that there have been many times where I have just made stuff up on the spot that I know is what everyone wants to hear.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I remember that often when the testing had concluded, everyone in the room would start clapping, and the brothers would reprimand everyone saying "we don't clap in the church life". Despite their words, the reaction of the audience always proved that everyone saw it as a performance.

Do they still tell people not to shake hands because there's an illness going around?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by OBW

My take on letting everyone speak is that it is mainly appealing to those who actually stand up and speak. And that is because you get kudos for doing it. A kind of approval that strokes the ego.

I can't simply applaud the LRC practice for 2 reasons. First, as stated above, I do not see any directive in that direction in scripture, therefore no preference for it. Second, too much of the effect of the practice was me feeling good about myself and my experience and getting strokes for it. And when you look at the whole system of the LRC that ensnares its membership, that is one of the perks that makes you think it is superior, and that makes you think you are superior.

Letting everyone speak according to the Bible or according to the ministry (via HWFMR)?

If letting everyone speak according to the Bible, that I have not seen in nearly 30 years.
If it's according to Holy Word for Morning Revival, that's a type of clergy/laiety system with the medium being those who speak the HWFMR (clergy).
If you try to speak according to the Bible, it might be received as an opposer speaking in our midst.

In localities I have met with in several states, letting everyone speak there's no one moderating whether the content is "building up the body" or to use the opportunity to speak as a platform to put down Christians not meeting in the local churches.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Terry

If you try to speak according to the Bible, it might be received as an opposer speaking in our midst.

A sure sign that there are BIG problems in a movement. In fact, it could be a possible sign that it has developed into some kind of cult. In the case of the Local Church, one must speak "according to the words of Witness Lee"...and if these words just happen to be according to the Bible..well that's just a bonus, but it's not a requirement. In fact, if Lee's teachings contradict the Bible (which many of them do) then one simply has to do some twisting and turning, adding some if, and and buts, provisos, exceptions to the rule, etc. etc.. and if all else fails, just pump your fist and proclaim "praise the Lord for the ministry!" "thank you Lord for your recovered word!" "Oh, Lord Jesus!"

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by OBW

Little bells being rung? I never heard of that. Does anyone know if this is a regular practice or just a peculiarity of a locality or two?

But I sort of like bells ringing. It means an angel is getting his/her wings.

Well then. I suppose Francis Ball got his wings ! I watched the memorial service of Francis Ball live on stream. And as people lined up... and YES they formed a line to go up to the podium to speak, the piano would begin to play one chord or note as a warning time was up and if they kept on, the piano person rang a little bell.

One comment on the "presence of God." It is likely that CMW is speaking of a real sense of the presence of God. But sometimes I think that we still fall back into needing some sensation like we used to get in the LRC to mean "presence of God." Since they don't do things the same way, the old sensation is gone.

Let me clarify on the 'Presence of God' comment. The Presence of God is not a feeling. Sometimes we do sense an overwhelming power of Peace. But the Presence of God is always in us.

What I noticed was their emphasis on the HWMR and the importance of the footnotes of RcV. Since that was more important to them than God's Word and their personal revelation or experience of what God was showing them either in the Scriptures or in their lives, for a lack of a better phrase, I used the phrase 'no presence of God' there.

But there is "presence of God" in the most quiet and pious worship you can find. The style may not be your cup of tea (or mine). But God is there in their midst. Everything from the almost off-the-wall old-school Pentecostals (not meaning that in a derogatory way) to the most liturgical (and much to the chagrin of some here — and I understand it — including the Catholics), God is there when believers meet.

A resounding yes OBW.

His presence is not based on the antics of our worship or the number of missionaries we send out to convert the earth. Or the perfection of our doctrine and practice. It is based on the heart of the believer.

Again. Right you are !

But I have heard about the deterioration of that favorite LRC practice for many of us in recent years. It is the death of spontaneity in the testimonies. Not that spontaneity is magical. But there was something real in the participants even if the practice was not all that we were told it was.

That was really a unique experience that taught many of us to fellowship and even share the gospel.

As for the piano and little bell ringing, the first time I experienced that paractice was here in SA when I went to the Sunday, ah-hum, 'Lord's day' meetings a few times. The people did not go up to the podium though, they stood up where they sat just like in the old days to give a 'prophesy'. But if they got a tad long winded, there went the piano and the bell.

Pretty soon, they're going to use a cane to yank the person out !

Good thing, I do not participate there anymore, they'd be using bullhorns on me to shut me up!