Holidays

[Freedom]

Since we are nearing the holiday season, I wanted to hear what everyone has to say in regards to the LC and holidays. I will start off by saying that I don't agree with the LC position on holidays. Even though I am in the LC still, I do not attend their trainings, rather I spend the time with family.

For me, not celebrating holidays was one of the most peculiar aspects of growing up in the LC. I think what was the most traumatic for me was dealing with the inevitable ridicule at public school. It is not an easy thing for a kid to have to explain why they don't celebrate holidays. I had to come up with ways rationalize a choice that wasn't mine to begin with.

In the modern LC, I don't see as much legality about not celebrating holidays, in terms of trying to make someone feel bad about it, but it is still frowned upon. They schedule trainings/conferences during all of the major holidays, so nowadays they can technically avoid the subject all together by simply getting everyone to attend their trainings. It has the side effect of keeping anyone from celebrating holidays.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Since we are nearing the holiday season, I wanted to hear what everyone has to say in regards to the LC and holidays. I will start off by saying that I don't agree with the LC position on holidays. Even though I am in the LC still, I do not attend their trainings, rather I spend the time with family.

For me, not celebrating holidays was one of the most peculiar aspects of growing up in the LC. I think what was the most traumatic for me was dealing with the inevitable ridicule at public school. It is not an easy thing for a kid to have to explain why they don't celebrate holidays. I had to come up with ways rationalize a choice that wasn't mine to begin with.

In the modern LC, I don't see as much legality about not celebrating holidays, in terms of trying to make someone feel bad about it, but it is still frowned upon. They schedule trainings/conferences during all of the major holidays, so nowadays they can technically avoid the subject all together by simply getting everyone to attend their trainings. It has the side effect of keeping anyone from celebrating holidays.

Growing up in the LC, the only holiday my family celebrated was Thanksgiving and Christmas. Once I reached Junior High, my Thanksgivings were spent with the Young People's Conferences.
Nearly each Christmas meant the 3-4 hour drive to Henderson, NV where we spent the Winter break with my grandmother and my mom's side of the family.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

Growing up in the LC, the only holiday my family celebrated was Thanksgiving and Christmas. Once I reached Junior High, my Thanksgivings were spent with the Young People's Conferences.
Nearly each Christmas meant the 3-4 hour drive to Henderson, NV where we spent the Winter break with my grandmother and my mom's side of the family.

The only holiday that we could officially celebrate in the church was Chinese New Year. So I would invite all my Chinese friends and family (which would be none) and attend the Chinese gospel dinner and eat those yummy moon pies.

[OBW]

The whole holiday thing in the LRC is a mockery of loving God and loving others. It is such an intentional wedge between families.

I realize that Jesus did make that statement about there being division in families over the kingdom. But that was one statement and it had a context. But the issue was over Jesus and the kingdom, not the controlling actions of a "minister" to force his followers to choose at every normal opportunity.

I find it interesting that Lee would eventually make overt the celebration of an indigenous Chinese holiday while retaining the overt disdain for every holiday that his culture would see as Western. Sort of underscores the real core of the teachings. They had to be different and they had to be understood as "revealed" through China.

As for my experience, we typically ended out getting away to my wife's family on Christmas evening. Everyone lived in the area, so it was doable. Even when they had trainings in Irving and we had hospitality, we would leave a key with one of the guests and go to the Christmas event.

And it was so liberating to stop having to make it such a short event when we left in 87. No more sneaking around.

BTW. When we got married, it turned out that our choice of wedding days was still inside of the video training for one of the Dallas suburbs and they stated that anyone who skipped the meeting to go to it would be kicked-out of the training. Some still did, and I think they backed-down. But I don't recall for sure.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Freedom

In the modern LC, I don't see as much legality about not celebrating holidays, in terms of trying to make someone feel bad about it, but it is still frowned upon. They schedule trainings/conferences during all of the major holidays, so nowadays they can technically avoid the subject all together by simply getting everyone to attend their trainings. It has the side effect of keeping anyone from celebrating holidays.

From my observation Freedom is correct - there is quite a bit more leniency in the LC when it comes to holidays. I'm sure there are some exceptions here or there. When I entered the Movement back in the mid-70s (Orange County CA) it was strictly forbidden to miss any training meeting to attend a holiday family get-together. Of course the trainings always took place during the holidays so it pretty much kept us away from our families at that time of year anyway. Some exceptions were made for "new ones", but the peer pressure to attend every meeting was enormous.

I have noticed that things have loosened quite a bit over the past 10-15 years. I'm sure that all the FTT attendees are still under strict instructions to never miss a meeting, however the great majority of them have parents in the Local Church, so there's no celebration of holidays anyway.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

BTW. When we got married, it turned out that our choice of wedding days was still inside of the video training for one of the Dallas suburbs and they stated that anyone who skipped the meeting to go to it would be kicked-out of the training. Some still did, and I think they backed-down. But I don't recall for sure.

This brings up bad memories of my own.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This brings up bad memories of my own.

Based on the NT, Jesus would probably have attended your wedding and turned water into wine, if necessary. It should have been a time of celebration for everyone. I don't find the scriptures which would have Jesus saying, okay everyone, listen up, if you go to that wedding, you're toast, because I am giving some important training that I want you to attend. He probably would have used your wedding as a parable for His training in real life issues.

I am surprised they are loosening the reins on holidays. I guess people are just not calling "Oh Lord Jesus" enough, or pray-reading enough or shouting out loud enough in meetings, reading or watching enough Life-Studies or marching through the streets of their cities enough. If they were, why would they even care about getting together with families for holidays? They are just falling short of what the LC is all about.

[Freedom]

It's interesting to hear that some of those here were able to get away with celebrating Christmas, especially back in the day. I never was able to celebrate Christmas as a child. I think Thanksgiving was the one holiday that we did celebrate.

WL certainly held strong views on holidays, especially Christmas. I found 3 quotes by WL on Christmas. I had to laugh when considered how ridiculous all of these quotes would sound to someone outside the LC. What was he thinking? He didn't just disregard Christmas, he hated it with a passion, yet it appears in his later years he decided to tone down his rhetoric and even contradict his earlier speaking in order to shift his focus to the "new way".

LS Hebrews Msg 56 Pg 624:

Many dear ones have seen the Lord’s recovery, but due to the matter of Christmas, they sold their birthright. Their Christmas celebration was like the religious meals in Judaism. Many American and European Christians find it difficult to give up Santa Claus and Christmas trees. The teachings about Christmas trees, Santa Claus, and stockings are some of today’s various and strange teachings.

LS Revelation Msg 51:

Another example is Christmas. Christmas is a blasphemy to Christ, and no Christian with a pure conscience should have anything to do with it. As the book, The Two Babylons, proves, Christmas originated from European paganism. Centuries before the Christian era, on December 25 the European pagans celebrated the birthday of the sun. When Constantine embraced Christianity, he encouraged the Roman citizens to become Christians, and he even rewarded many thousands for being baptized. Thousands who knew nothing of Christ were baptized and came into Christendom, bringing their pagan customs with them. Later, the name of Christ was attached to the birth of the sun god celebrated on December 25. In principle, the celebration of Easter is the same. Although some Christians in Orange County condemn us as heretical, they themselves still practice the pagan festival of Christmas. To be sure, during the three and a half years of the great tribulation all Christians will abandon such things as Christmas, Easter, the worship of Mary, and all paganism.

The Exercise and Practice of the God-Ordained Way, Chapter 22:

In speaking with the new believers, you should never forget that they are babes and that they must be fed with baby food. When they raise a question concerning Christmas, you should use the subject of Christmas to feed them. You should not try to adjust them harshly, since this would not be treating them as babes. The nursing mothers not only feed their little ones, but they also cherish them by playing with them. To play with them is to cherish them. This cherishing makes them happy. Once they are cherished and feel happy, the mothers feed them. You must learn how to “play” with the new believers. Your aim in playing with them is to feed them; therefore, you should not become too occupied with the subject of Christmas. You may say in a tender and loving manner, “Christmas is here because of Christ. Without Christ, there would be no Christmas holiday. The story of Christmas began because Christ came to be our Savior. Although you may have a Christmas tree, you must make sure that you get Christ.” You should gradually turn them from the false things of Christmas to the reality of Christ. As you turn them to Christ, saying something about Christ, spontaneously you are injecting them with Christ. Eventually, through this kind of tender fellowship, they will feel happy that they know something about the real meaning of Christmas, and soon they will forget about exchanging Christmas gifts. You should exercise your patience and wisdom, but you should not forget your goal of ministering Christ into the new believers as their nourishment.

So in the LS of Hebrews WL makes the implication that the reason people can't see or stay in the "recovery" is because they can't give up Christmas. I wonder if the same is true for those who celebrate Chinese New Year?

In the LS of Revelation WL states that "Christmas is a blasphemy to Christ, and no Christian with a pure conscience should have anything to do with it."

In the 3rd excerpt he states that "When they raise a question concerning Christmas, you should use the subject of Christmas to feed them. You should not try to adjust them harshly, since this would not be treating them as babes."

So if Christmas is something no Christian with a pure conscience should have anything to do with, then why would he later say to use the subject of Christmas as some kind of ice breaker for new believers? It is evident by WL's quotes that he liked to adjust people "harshly", however, he tells everyone not to adjust new believers "harshly" in regards to Christmas. This is quite hypocritical if you ask me.

I think that 3rd excerpt demonstrates the double standard in LC practice that WL created. In the orthopraxy thread, the subject of "hidden practices" in the LC came up. I think this excerpt demonstrates just that. According to WL's "new way" a new believer can enter the LC without having any realization about the real view on holidays and Christmas. WL's true view is what he said in the LS messages (which "new ones" don't get to read until later on).

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Since we are nearing the holiday season, I wanted to hear what everyone has to say in regards to the LC and holidays. I will start off by saying that I don't agree with the LC position on holidays. Even though I am in the LC still, I do not attend their trainings, rather I spend the time with family.

For me, not celebrating holidays was one of the most peculiar aspects of growing up in the LC. I think what was the most traumatic for me was dealing with the inevitable ridicule at public school. It is not an easy thing for a kid to have to explain why they don't celebrate holidays. I had to come up with ways rationalize a choice that wasn't mine to begin with.

In the modern LC, I don't see as much legality about not celebrating holidays, in terms of trying to make someone feel bad about it, but it is still frowned upon. They schedule trainings/conferences during all of the major holidays, so nowadays they can technically avoid the subject all together by simply getting everyone to attend their trainings. It has the side effect of keeping anyone from celebrating holidays.

Here's what I think:

Romans 14
5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 He who celebrates Christmas, observes it to the Lord;[a] and he who does not celebrate Christmas, to the Lord he does not celebrate Christmas.
(My translation.)

Witness Lee, again, overstepped his boundaries. It used to be that "we don't have any rules or regulations". I actually believed that in the face of all the evidence to the contrary.

Nell

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Nell

Here's what I think:

Romans 14
6 He who celebrates Christmas, observes it to the Lord;[a] and he who does not celebrate Christmas, to the Lord he does not celebrate Christmas.
(My translation.)

Nell

Will you becoming out with the NT version of "Nell's translation"? I would be looking forward to it. I think you are on to something.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Since we are nearing the holiday season, I wanted to hear what everyone has to say in regards to the LC and holidays. I will start off by saying that I don't agree with the LC position on holidays. Even though I am in the LC still, I do not attend their trainings, rather I spend the time with family.

For me, not celebrating holidays was one of the most peculiar aspects of growing up in the LC. I think what was the most traumatic for me was dealing with the inevitable ridicule at public school. It is not an easy thing for a kid to have to explain why they don't celebrate holidays. I had to come up with ways rationalize a choice that wasn't mine to begin with.

In the modern LC, I don't see as much legality about not celebrating holidays, in terms of trying to make someone feel bad about it, but it is still frowned upon. They schedule trainings/conferences during all of the major holidays, so nowadays they can technically avoid the subject all together by simply getting everyone to attend their trainings. It has the side effect of keeping anyone from celebrating holidays.

By scheduling the training to eclipse the major holidays, the leaders make participating in the training a litmus test of your dedication to Lee's ministry. I did not grow up in Witness Lee's Local Church so I don't know what that is like. Giving up the holidays for approximately a decade while I was in Lee's church had the effect of killing my psychological attachment to them. They still have little meaning for me 28 years after leaving. At the most, they are occasions for getting together with the family and giving gifts. Looking at it that way is possibly better than being compulsively caught up in holiday fever. Or, so it seems to me.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by zeek

By scheduling the training to eclipse the major holidays, the leaders make participating in the training a litmus test of your dedication to Lee's ministry. I did not grow up in Witness Lee's Local Church so I don't know what that is like. Giving up the holidays for approximately a decade while I was in Lee's church had the effect of killing my psychological attachment to them. They still have little meaning for me 28 years after leaving. At the most, they are occasions for getting together with the family and giving gifts. Looking at it that way is possibly better than being compulsively caught up in holiday fever. Or, so it seems to me.

I do feel that way also because I grew up not celebrating Christmas that I don't have the same attachment to it as many, especially the materialistic aspect of it. I never really got to the point where I said "enough is enough, time to start celebrating holidays", rather I wanted to undo the trail of destruction and hurt behind me due to this practice of the LC separating members from their families during the holidays.

I quietly stopped attending the trainings and instead I have attended family gatherings on holidays for several years now. I did get some flak from someone once because I chose to attend a Christmas gathering instead of the training, and I took the opportunity to share how I felt about the issue. I pointed out that WL's teaching regarding Christmas has only resulted in strife and hard feelings between family members. It is quite a statement to forsake a family gathering to attend a training.

The bottom line is that WL's teaching regarding holidays have serious implications. I like the verses from Romans 14 that were posted. Where is the freedom in the LC for individuals to make their own decisions without having to be "secretive" about their decisions?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Dave

Will you becoming out with the NT version of "Nell's translation"? I would be looking forward to it. I think you are on to something.

So far the "NT" just comes out a verse at a time. Maybe I should give it some thought.

Nell

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I do feel that way also because I grew up not celebrating Christmas that I don't have the same attachment to it as many, especially the materialistic aspect of it. I never really got to the point where I said "enough is enough, time to start celebrating holidays", rather I wanted to undo the trail of destruction and hurt behind me due to this practice of the LC separating members from their families during the holidays.

I quietly stopped attending the trainings and instead I have attended family gatherings on holidays for several years now. I did get some flak from someone once because I chose to attend a Christmas gathering instead of the training, and I took the opportunity to share how I felt about the issue. I pointed out that WL's teaching regarding Christmas has only resulted in strife and hard feelings between family members. It is quite a statement to forsake a family gathering to attend a training.

The bottom line is that WL's teaching regarding holidays have serious implications. I like the verses from Romans 14 that were posted. Where is the freedom in the LC for individuals to make their own decisions without having to be "secretive" about their decisions?

Here's another passage where Lee lays out the pagan origins of Christmas:

On the one hand, the Catholic Church teaches that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. On the other hand, they teach the worship of Mary, the “holy mother.” This is a great heresy added into the truth concerning Christ. Today’s Christmas is another example of leaven added by Catholicism to the fine flour of the teaching concerning Christ. In ancient times December 25 was the day on which the Romans worshipped their sun god. Later, after many Romans became false Christians under the seducing of Constantine the Great, they still wanted to continue their remembrance of the sun god. However, under the influence of Constantine, they were forced to worship Christ. Therefore, they made December 25 a day for the celebration of Christ’s birth. This is the source of Christmas. Christ is true; Christmas is false. Christ is the truth; Christmas is a heresy and a mixture. Over the centuries some books have been written, including The Two Babylons by Alexander Hislop, to expose the heresies of Roman Catholicism. (The God-Men, Chapter 3, Section 3)

So, I think I appreciate the position you're in. It's a line you have to walk by yourself. In my experience, it's "not a small thing" as Mr. Lee used to say, because whatever way you go, it effects other family members especially the children. But, if the holiday leads your children into heresy and blaspheme as Lee claims, I suppose that would be a serious transgression with consequences. So, I will talk only about my experience, and note that, at the moment, I am unaware of dire consequences that I personally or my loved ones have suffered from exchanging Christmas gifts. Giving gifts to people that you love can be a good thing. And one can remember the birth of the savior even if is on an ancient Roman pagan holiday as even Lee admitted in the passage you quoted below. Like a lot of issues, if you look at what Lee said over time, it seems he was more ambivalent about issues than he let on.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by zeek

I am unaware of dire consequences that I personally or my loved ones have suffered from exchanging Christmas gifts. Giving gifts to people that you love can be a good thing. And one can remember the birth of the savior even if is on an ancient Roman pagan holiday as even Lee admitted in the passage you quoted below. Like a lot of issues, if you look at what Lee said over time, it seems he was more ambivalent about issues than he let on.

I have grown to appreciate giving gifts to others. For me, there is something that helps me be at peace with myself by spending this time of the year with family and to have a heart of giving. More importantly, Christmas is a time of the year when people actually talk about Jesus.

I think that Lee really dug himself into the a hole with what he said. Once he said anything, it was set in stone, even if he said something later to contradict himself. I think that most of what he said was colored to support whatever he was trying to push at that particular point in time. When he was doing the LS of Revelation, the theme was the LC being the antithesis of Babylon. When he was doing his "new way" it was all about his supposedly infallible methods to take care of new believers. (Even though he had the tendency to blast other Christians/new believers for their "pagan" practices, among other things.).

A while back I listened to a recording of James Barber where he calls Christmas "Paga-mas" (a conjunction of pagan and Christmas). I can only imagine the hard-lined attitude about holidays back in the day. Once Lee got everyone associating holiday with being Pagan, that was it. Holidays were not to be celebrated, period. Has the attitude changed? Maybe a little bit. I do think the attitude has been relaxed, however, it seems the real purpose is that some leading brothers realize being too strict about holidays is a deal breaker for many of those new to the LC (who would have known? ). But then again Lee states that "Many dear ones have seen the Lord’s recovery, but due to the matter of Christmas, they sold their birthright". So I guess LC leadership must choose to contradicting Lee in order to do a better job at not scaring people away.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Here's another passage where Lee lays out the pagan origins of Christmas:

So, I think I appreciate the position you're in. It's a line you have to walk by yourself. In my experience, it's "not a small thing" as Mr. Lee used to say, because whatever way you go, it effects other family members especially the children. But, the holiday leads your children into heresy and blaspheme as Lee claims, I suppose that would be a serious transgression with consequences. So, I will talk only about my experience, and note that, at the moment, I am unaware of dire consequences that I personally or my loved ones have suffered from exchanging Christmas gifts. Giving gifts to people that you love can be a good thing. And one can remember the birth of the savior even if is on an ancient Roman pagan holiday as even Lee admitted in the passage you quoted below. Like a lot of issues, if you look at what Lee said over time, it seems he was more ambivalent about issues than he let on.

It was perfectly fine in Lee's system to use the Chinese New Year to preach the gospel to the Chinese, but totally wrong to use Christmas to preach the gospel to your family.

[Friedel]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Quoting Witness Lee from the Life-Study of Revelation, Message 51:

As the book, The Two Babylons, proves, Christmas originated from European paganism.

In the 70s there were some must-have books we were encouraged to own, apart from the litany of LSM publications, including annual Chinese calendars and quotes from Witness Lee's speaking, printed to be framed and to decorate the walls of every room in your house. (Quotes like "The New Way Produces the New Man". Yeah. Right.) Miller's Church History was one and I remember that I also had to find/buy the separately printed The Last Chapter which most recent editions at the time had omitted. Another was Alexander Hislop's The Two Babylons. All seemingly very appropriate and necessary for spiritual growth. Many of these publications were ingested so we were able to refer to or to quote Lee, Miller, Darby, Hislop, Alford and whomever else.

In 1966 Ralph Woodrow, of Riverside, CA, wrote and published Babylon Mystery Religion, which was in essence a summary of Hislop's book. It sold hundreds of thousands and was translated into several languages.

Woodrow became quite a celebrity and was regarded worldwide as an expert on "paganism mixed into Christianity." Then, in 1997, he published The Babylon Connection? in which he not only recanted his own best-seller book but essentially repudiated and distanced himself from Hislop's claims and said that his "'history' was often only mythology". However, we continued to eat this "mythology" and I would not be surprised if Hislop is still prescribed.

It was regularly stated in Local Church meetings at the time that "you are what you eat" – which, translated, meant don't go shopping because going shopping is going to hell, you do not go to the movies, you do not watch TV, you do not read newspapers but only US News & World Report, you do not celebrate Christmas because it is pagan, do no celebrate birthdays, do not give gifts, do not have friends in the church but only brothers and sisters; be alienated from your parents and siblings and friends because they have not "seen".

Naturally, apart from Life-Studies and footnotes from the Gold Bars, we also dug into Hislop and Miller and Alford and Darby. We became thoroughly constituted with things that rendered us too constipated to live normal lives. Many of the concepts we still carry within us had their origins in the Local Church "must-have" reading diet (including the LSM staple) and we thus had become physically and emotionally repressed and/or inhibited, unable to properly relate to anyone, because we had been gorging ourselves. We became "damaged goods" by consuming the LSM brand of Kool-Aid: without form, colorless, odorless, tasteless poison that apparently permanently debilitated our spiritual being. We never even realized this synergism took place within our beings and when we left we were stuck with the long, long-term after-effects resulting in spiritual inertia.

Paul already saw this 2,000 years ago in Colossae: "Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism … why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations — 21 "Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch" 22 (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings?" (Colossians 2:18, 20–22, ESV).

That is what caused us to lose our humanity, "chewing the cud", the whole caboodle that desensitized us and rendered us incapable to interact with literally everyone. In the church life we developed a special, sought-after spiritual schizophrenia that enabled us to live two lives (one, in the church life; two, outside the church and meeting lives) yet we testified in the church we live the one life. We lost touch with reality and we literally became deaf mutes (no offense intended) whenever we entered a non-Local Church environment. We cannot hear and we cannot speak.

We learnt about Life, Light and Love and we can probably all recognize them. When you meet Christians, check the boxes for all three. If one is missing, you are bound to drink more colorless, poisonous Kool-Aid. Then, rather run for your life … or what is left of it!

(I would encourage everyone to read the testimony of Mario and Dora Sandoval who had to endure emotional and mental assault and abuse from the new men produced by the new way. They were treated in a most unrighteous way by the Blendeds and their minions. Indiana or Terry provided a link to their testimony on this thread. Now, this is a must-read.)

[Friedel]

I have been communicating some with Steve Isitt during the past few days. He introduced me to the story of Mario and Dora Sandoval.

I cannot recall when last I was so upset over something executed and condoned by the Blendeds and their underlings.

Now, after posting below and thinking about the LSM's peculiar brand of Kool-Aid, it suddenly struck me why they are what they are.

They suffer from the Masada complex: they will never admit they are/were wrong and they will never, ever apologize. They will rather die before giving in to anyone. In the meantime they will continue dishing out their Kool-Aid.

[zeek]

This woman in Matthew 13 signifies the Roman Catholic Church. She is also Jezebel, the woman mentioned in Revelation 2. This evil woman, the great harlot, added leaven to the fine flour, producing a mixture of the real and the false, the good and the bad, the elements of Christ and the elements of Satan. In Christendom you can see some real things and some false things, some holy things and some worldly things, some elements of Christ and some elements of Satan, all mixed together. In the Roman Catholic Church and in all the denominations, there are many real Christians, yet there is also much leaven. The Roman Catholic Church has picked up many pagan things and mixed them with the things of Christ. For example, did you know that the origin of Christmas is pagan? Christmas Day, December 25, celebrated the birthday of the sun god. The Roman Catholic Church took in this pagan holiday, making December 25 the birthday of Christ. Many Christians may argue that Christmas is an excellent time to preach the gospel; that while men celebrate Christmas, they will take the opportunity to preach Christ. This is leaven and is the subtlety of the enemy. Easter is also a leaven. When the Catholic Church went to China, it even embraced ancestor worship. Not only in the Roman Catholic Church, but also in the denominations there are many worldly things and lusts added to the things of Christ to produce a mixture. Our eyes need to be opened to see this mixture.

We are against the birds of the air. We are against the rocks underneath the soft earth. We are against the thorns and we are against the tares. We are against the disproportionate growth of the great tree and we are also against the leaven. We oppose anything that corrupts. This is a matter of the Lord's recovery and of the Lord's kingdom. These parables are the mysteries of the kingdom.

(The Kingdom, Chapter 12, Section 6)

It wasn't easy being Witness Lee. What he lacked in love, he made up for with piss and vinegar like a curmudgeonly uncle.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by zeek

It wasn't easy being Witness Lee. What he lacked in love, he made up for with piss and vinegar like a curmudgeonly uncle.

You're too kind!!

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Friedel

I have been communicating some with Steve Isitt during the past few days. He introduced me to the story of Mario and Dora Sandoval.

I cannot recall when last I was so upset over something executed and condoned by the Blendeds and their underlings.

Now, after posting below and thinking about the LSM's peculiar brand of Kool-Aid, it suddenly struck me why they are what they are.

They suffer from the Masada complex: they will never admit they are/were wrong and they will never, ever apologize. They will rather die before giving in to anyone. In the meantime they will continue dishing out their Kool-Aid.

I have read the story of the Sandovals, and yes it is upsetting, but it's not all the surprising given what I have seen/know about the LC.

In the FTTT it was said of Lee "Even when he's wrong, he's right". So in regards to what he said regarding holidays, apparently everything he said still applies, even that which contradicts itself. It must be really confusing for those who try to follow his instructions to a 'T'.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Friedel

In the 70s there were some must-have books we were encouraged to own, apart from the litany of LSM publications, including annual Chinese calendars and quotes from Witness Lee's speaking, printed to be framed and to decorate the walls of every room in your house. (Quotes like "The New Way Produces the New Man". Yeah. Right.) Miller's Church History was one and I remember that I also had to find/buy the separately printed The Last Chapter which most recent editions at the time had omitted. Another was Alexander Hislop's The Two Babylons. All seemingly very appropriate and necessary for spiritual growth. Many of these publications were ingested so we were able to refer to or to quote Lee, Miller, Darby, Hislop, Alford and whomever else.

In 1966 Ralph Woodrow, of Riverside, CA, wrote and published Babylon Mystery Religion, which was in essence a summary of Hislop's book. It sold hundreds of thousands and was translated into several languages.

Woodrow became quite a celebrity and was regarded worldwide as an expert on "paganism mixed into Christianity." Then, in 1997, he published The Babylon Connection? in which he not only recanted his own best-seller book but essentially repudiated and distanced himself from Hislop's claims and said that his "'history' was often only mythology". However, we continued to eat this "mythology" and I would not be surprised if Hislop is still prescribed.

I am aware of Hislop's book. I don't hear these works referenced much any more. I think the current LC mentality is that WL went through all these books for us so we only need his ministry/books. At one point in time, I actually took the whole paganism thing quite seriously. Eventually, realized that it's not possible to really know how practices/traditions originated. The bottom line is it doesn't matter. It didn't really matter to Lee, I think that calling things pagan suited his agenda. The reoccurring example is that he didn't bash Chinese New Year, but he had no problem going off on Christmas.