Eldership

[Peter Debelak]

Originally Posted by YP0534

OK, so then, that makes two of us.

But there you go! The question I'd ask in that context is why would the appointment of elders fall to an apostle post-synagogue. Was there a practice of such appointment by someone else?

I should rephrase my answer:

I have seen support for the proposition that the church-structure was inherented from the synagogue pattern - I just haven't seen this proposition be used for the further proposition that church-structure in the New Testament is therefore merely descriptive and not normative.

Here's some background on "elder" in the OT and into the NT:

Prominent member of both Jewish and early Christian communities. In the Old Testament, “elder” usually translates the Hebrew word zaqen from a root which means “beard” or “chin.” In the New Testament, the Greek word is presbuteros, which is transliterated in English as “presbyter” and from which the word “priest” was derived.

Elders in the Old Testament From the beginning of Israelite history, the elders were the leaders of the various clans and tribes. When the tribes came together to form the nation of Israel, the elders of the tribes naturally assumed important roles in governing the affairs of the nation. Moses was commanded to inform the “elders of Israel” of the Lord's intention to deliver Israel from Egypt and to take the elders with him to confront the pharaoh (Exodus 3:16,Exodus 3:18). Similarly, seventy of the elders participated with Moses at the covenant meal at Sinai (Exodus 24:9-11). As the task of governing Israel grew in complexity, part of the burden was transferred from Moses to a council of seventy elders (Numbers 11:16-17).

During the period of the Judges and the monarchy, the elders were prominent in the political and judicial life of Israel. They demanded that Samuel appoint a king (1 Samuel 8:4-5); they played crucial roles in David's getting and retaining the throne (2 Samuel 3:17; 2 Samuel 5:3; 2 Samuel 17:15; 2 Samuel 19:11-12); and they represented the people at the consecration of the Temple of Solomon (1 Kings 8:1,1 Kings 8:3). In the legal codes of Deuteronomy the elders are responsible for administering justice, sitting as judges in the city gate (Deuteronomy 22:15), deciding cases affecting family life (Deuteronomy 21:18-21, Deuteronomy 22:13-21), and executing decisions (Deuteronomy 19:11-13; Deuteronomy 21:1-9).

Although elders were less prominent in the post-exilic period and the term was apparently not much used in Jewish communities outside Palestine, the “council of elders” was an integral part of the Sanhedrin at Jerusalem. In the New Testament, frequent reference is made to the elders of the Jews, usually in conjunction with the chief priests or scribes (for example, Matthew 21:23; Mark 14:43). In this context the elders, apparently members of leading families, had some authority but were not the principal leaders in either religious or political affairs. Elders did have leading roles in the government of synagogues and after the fall of the Temple became even more central to Jewish religious life.

Elders in the New Testament In the earliest Jewish Christian churches, at least the church in Jerusalem, the position of “elder” was almost certainly modeled after the synagogue pattern. Although there are few specific details about the function of elders in the Jerusalem church, they apparently served as a decision-making council. They are often mentioned in conjunction with the apostles, and some passages give the impression that the apostles and elders of Jerusalem considered themselves to be a decision-making council for the whole church (Acts 15:1; Acts 21:17-26). As the Jewish character of the Jerusalem church increased with the departure of Philip, Peter, and others more amenable to preaching to Gentiles, the synagogue pattern probably became even more pronounced in Jerusalem.


- - from Holman Bible Dictionary found here (admittedly, I do not know the pedigree or reliability of this source - but the references check out!).

[Peter Debelak]

If "eldership" was inhereted from the Jewish custom, then Christ's words in Matthew 15 could shed some light on the normative/descriptive nature of eldership:


1 Then some Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus (B)from Jerusalem and said,

2"Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they (C)do not wash their hands when they eat bread."

3And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?

...
12Then the disciples came and said to Him, "Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this statement?"

13But He answered and said, "Every plant which My heavenly Father did not plant shall be uprooted.

14"Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind And if a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit."

Thus, I would say that if the "eldership" does not have an independant NT prescriptive foundation (as opposed to being an inhereted OT prescription), then it got abolished with Christ (at least as a prescription).

Except, I'm not sure how then to reconcile Matthew 23:1-3:

1Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples,
2saying: "(B)The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses;
3therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.

The bolded sentence is odd and I'm not sure how to comport it with the rest of Matthew 23 (or Matthew 15):

8"But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.

9"Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.

10"Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.

I think these passages should be at the forefront of our minds in any interpretation of potential "offices" in the church.

Peter

P.S. YP: I haven't the first clue - regardless of the descriptive/prescritive nature of eldership - why their appointment would fall to the apostles if the practice was derived from Jewish tradition. I don't know if there is an analogue

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

Elders in the New Testament In the earliest Jewish Christian churches, at least the church in Jerusalem, the position of “elder” was almost certainly modeled after the synagogue pattern. Although there are few specific details about the function of elders in the Jerusalem church, they apparently served as a decision-making council. They are often mentioned in conjunction with the apostles, and some passages give the impression that the apostles and elders of Jerusalem considered themselves to be a decision-making council for the whole church (Acts 15:1; Acts 21:17-26). As the Jewish character of the Jerusalem church increased with the departure of Philip, Peter, and others more amenable to preaching to Gentiles, the synagogue pattern probably became even more pronounced in Jerusalem.[/COLOR]


- - from Holman Bible Dictionary found here

Scant evidence for making the connection between the two "elderships," however. "Almost certainly" doesn't quite do it for me, although it DOES show a contradiction within that entire school of analysis whereby the supposed "offices" are later features of assembly practice, which is an important consideration that I have been grappling with. If it is "almost certainly" something derived from synagogue custom, transmitted through the Jewish believers in the assembly at Jerusalem, then that's a very early feature, not a very late, potentially post-apostolic, one.

Hmmm.

See, this is why I'm keyed in on the "widows' roll" concept. It's so distinctive that if it finds itself firmly ensconced in common synagogue practice, it then becomes far less unreasonable to propose that other items, such as an appointed eldership, find their source in a similar place, specifically, in a traditional practice of first-century Palestinian Judaism.

This would really make several things make a whole lot more sense, in my opinion, not the least of which is Paul's subjugation of the functioning of the sisters by means of an appeal to the Law...

[Peter Debelak]

Originally Posted by YP0534

Scant evidence for making the connection between the two "elderships," however. "Almost certainly" doesn't quite do it for me,...

Doesn't cut it for me either. The case is well footnoted (w/ scripture) all the way up until making this crucial link, which is supported, it seems, by "well, duh...right?"

But there is an element of "duh, of course the structure was inhereted from Judaism." The more important question then would be: well, which way does that little fact cut?

I just read an article about how much Jesus utilized the synagogic structures for the spread of his ministry - as evidence that Jesus condoned the perpetuation of that structure even after the gospel...

I'll write more thoroughly on why I disagree...

Peter