The LCS Factor

[Toledo]

Originally Posted by Matt

I never said that simply being a member forced you to commit idolatry. What I said was that being a member caused most to stumble in regards to idolatry. There is a huge difference between these two.

How about Post #152...?

2. I am pointing my guns at the fact that the LC was idolatrous and every single soul who went into the LC and loved it at any stage of their experience there was entering into a level of idolatry. Some more or less than others. The leaders/ex-leaders are more guilty of the idolatry than the commoners.

Note: Now that's a broad generalization! Keep in mind that I consider myself to have committed idolatry based on the Biblical standard of it and don't overreact just because of your ignorance on the matter.

3. If someone is going to come along and try to paint one locality more "white" because they were there then I am going to bring as many examples out of the woodwork as I am able to do to help confront the fact that no locality was "white". They were all interlinked into an idolatrous system and party to the idolatry.

I don't have to be a first-hand expert at the LC to see that it was an idolatrous system. I can prove the idolatry based on the Word of God and many aspects of the system.

"Every single soul"...? That's more than simply "most".

So far you have not made your case. Perhaps that's why there is so much resistance. You started with "the fact that the LC was idolatrous and every single soul who went into the LC and loved it at any stage of their experience there was entering into a level of idolatry." However, though there were and are undeniably serious problems in the local churches, you have yet to establish that idolatry is a "fact". Rather it remains only your personal assertion.

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Toledo

How about Post #152...?

"Every single soul"...? That's more than simply "most".

So far you have not made your case. Perhaps that's why there is so much resistance. You started with "the fact that the LC was idolatrous and every single soul who went into the LC and loved it at any stage of their experience there was entering into a level of idolatry." However, though there were and are undeniably serious problems in the local churches, you have yet to establish that idolatry is a "fact". Rather it remains only your personal assertion.

Toledo, I will never make the case on this issue at the level of extreme that I have presented it. At the same time, I have made enough of the case...

I knew there would be a lot of resistance to what I said and that few would buy it at the level I have been presenting it. Only God knows what is the right level at which we should estimate it.

I'm going to do some thinking and see if I can clarify what I was saying in a clearer fashion without losing substance, but let me do a little lawyeresque fine-slicing from your quote of me for now...

I said, "every single soul who went into the LC and loved it at any stage of their experience there..." The word it refers to the LC, not the Lord. If you fell in love with the LC then you went into a level of idolatry. The reason I say this is because the LC was almost never (except in the very early 60's) just the "church in your locality". It was a system of interconnected churches across many localities. It was interconnected by a particular ministry (Witness Lee's).

We are not to worship the Body of Christ. We are to worship God. We are called to love the members of the Body, not the Body as a concept. This is part of what has happened in the LC. The Body of Christ has been worshipped on par with God. We see it in it's extreme form among the Blended's, but it was/is present in lesser forms among many, many more from the LC.

I totally agree that my statement went to the extreme and I acknowledged that with my note on point #2 in post #152.

Also, in post #152 I clearly stated that I did not consider myself an authority even though I was speaking strongly.

Originally Posted by Matt

In closing, I am no authority. I am just one voice. I'll speak and if you want to try to call me an authority to try and put me in my place go ahead.

In closing on this note, let me say that I do understand everyone's reaction to this subject and to my presentation of it. I am not blind to the level of emphasis I have brought to this subject nor am I blind to the level of pushing I have done. I never expected sweeping agreement. I expected the opposite and I got it. At this stage, I'm defending the fact that this issue belongs on the table in front of everyone. The pervasive effect of the LC system (an idolatrous one) on the lives of many needs to be fully examined and the leaven should be purged.

I've done what I have done on this thread knowingly and in good conscience before the Lord. Any personal offense I have caused I will clear up. I don't believe I have attacked anyone personally, although I will admit to giving Hope a hard time on some occasions and pushing back on a few others when they have come after me. When and if Hope thinks I've crossed the line with him personally, I am willing to address it.

Peter Debelak introduced 1 Cor 5:11-12 as part of a question to me which I have not responded to yet. If you have a minute re-read 1 Corinthians 5. Take the context of the chapter in. There is serious sin in the midst of the Corinthians and Paul knows it needs to be dealt with. When I re-read to address Peter's question, I saw a verse I hadn't seen before.

I've bolded it. It's one of my central concerns when it comes to this desire to highlight the "positives" from the past. No one thinks we should set Christ aside, but I've heard much glorying in the past of the LC in my travels around the Midwest and elsewhere. We even have a phrase that we have heard on these forums. It's the "glory days".

1 Corinthians 5:4-7
in the name of our Lord Jesus, ye being gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, (5) to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (6) Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? (7) Purge out the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, even as ye are unleavened. For our passover also hath been sacrificed, even Christ:

A decent amount of my resistance has been to Hope and his desire to try and balance out the "negatives" with the "positives". Cleaning house based on past events is about focusing on the "negatives". Jesus Christ will take care of the positives by His Spirit. He will bless us with His presence when we are faithful to repent!

I've made the strong point that right in the midst of the "glory days" you (collective you) were being leavened by an worker whose heart was not set totally on the Lord. Yes, Witness Lee. His deeds demonstrate a lot of seeking filthy lucre and selfish gain.

Matt

P.S. to SC - I've only been harping on Lee because the position he holds in people's heart. We have to confront some facts that are little known. I don't hate Lee. He had serious issues that he foisted on top of many believers and was allowed to get far too much power among the saints. The fact is that he is dead, but those left with him too high in their hearts need to confront the deeds of his past even before the US. If someone has fully confronted his deeds and still wants to read some of his material, then go for it. However, I strongly believe his writings would be a stumblingblock to a young believer because of the leaven in them. In my opinion, they should not be promoted to the uninformed.

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by Matt

I said, "every single soul who went into the LC and loved it at any stage of their experience there..." The word it refers to the LC, not the Lord. If you fell in love with the LC then you went into a level of idolatry. The reason I say this is because the LC was almost never (except in the very early 60's) just the "church in your locality". It was a system of interconnected churches across many localities. It was interconnected by a particular ministry (Witness Lee's).

We are not to worship the Body of Christ. We are to worship God. We are called to love the members of the Body, not the Body as a concept. This is part of what has happened in the LC. The Body of Christ has been worshipped on par with God. We see it in it's extreme form among the Blended's, but it was/is present in lesser forms among many, many more from the LC.

Hi All,

I would like to use this point to first, show the word dancing that is going on in trying to prove a point. Again, there is a very small minority that may fit this position, but we were mostly Christians loving the Lord and loving the brothers and sisters (the church). This matter of worshipping the church I think, began materializing late in the game for some who did not want to see the glory days of yesterday fade away, so they created a doctrine and quarantined any who would not follow; interestingly enough, using the leading ones perceptions of idolatry to scare any who would not follow their twisted way.

But let me get to my main point; We each have our own idols that we must deal with, when we point fingers at others idols we are stepping over a line we were never intended to cross.

Let me use some general examples. Have you ever tried to help a recovering substance abuser? As the Lord delivers him from his addictions he is finding grace to overcome his demons, but for one inexperienced in this matter, who is trying to help him see his idol, it usually ends poorly because you just don't know what that person is going through. This is not to say you have to become an substance abuser before you can treat one, but the most effective teachers are the ones have been there, and know how to bring others through it.

The missing element is experience and I think this is what is most lacking from your well constructed doctrine. If I can use your own experiences as an example, you could make very clear how the Lord has exposed idols in your life and I'm sure that your conclusions would not be questioned, because your very own experience supports it. But when you try to build a case of others idolatry you seem to be fighting a losing battle, for it runs up against others experience and in the end is found lacking in validity.

This is not a "mind your own bussiness" post, only a suggestion that you should stick to presenting truths founded on your own personal experiences. If your conclusions do not have the support of the ones who have a direct experience, Do not discount them as Too blind to see what you see, for the truly blind one is the one lacking in experience.

Is this not what came into the LC, leading ones who helped others see what the leading ones percieved as their "Idols?" Then using their authority to enforce what they saw and not what the ufortunate saint saw?

I feel scripture is very clear, that we each are responsible for our own life and in dealing with the sin, flesh and idols that come with it. I cannot deal with your sins, flesh and idols, but I can help you by encouraging you to pray for our Lord to expose the dark, hidden things in your life, that by His light and in the power of His grace the dark things can be confessed and washed away in His cleansing blood.

Shawn

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Shawn

But let me get to my main point; We each have our own idols that we must deal with, when we point fingers at others idols we are stepping over a line we were never intended to cross.

Let me use some general examples. Have you ever tried to help a recovering substance abuser? As the Lord delivers him from his addictions he is finding grace to overcome his demons, but for one inexperienced in this matter, who is trying to help him see his idol, it usually ends poorly because you just don't know what that person is going through. This is not to say you have to become an substance abuser before you can treat one, but the most effective teachers are the ones have been there, and know how to bring others through it.

I agree with your sentiments about dealing with someone who has acknowledged they are a drug abuser. Your statements are correct. However, is that what we are dealing with here? No. I am talking about those who have not acknowledged "drug abuse".

Question: If you have a friend who is a drug abuser, do you tell them you think they are abusing drugs? Or do you say nothing? <-- This is where your argument breaks down.

Note: I recognize that some have acknowledged their "drug abuse". Others have not. I am especially concerned about those in leadership who have not been able to acknowledge their "drug abuse". If these ones regain prominence and/or influence while still holding on to portions of their "old habit", then they make others sick. The ones who have not acknowledged their drug abuse have basically said, I haven't and don't take drugs. In some cases, this may be true. This is where concrete evidence comes in. You have to have evidence of the abuse.

I did not introduce the "drug abuser" example, you did. I used it, but no one should come back at me in response. I am primarily pointing out the flaws in your thinking using your own analogy.

On the subject of this thread there has been discussion about "Christ plus something." One of the key responses has been to justify that "Christ plus something" is okay.

2Co 11:1-4
Would that ye could bear with me in a little foolishness: but indeed ye do bear with me. (2) For I am jealous over you with a godly jealousy: for I espoused you to one husband, that I might present you as a pure virgin to Christ. (3) But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve in his craftiness, your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity and the purity that is toward Christ. (4) For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we did not preach, or if ye receive a different spirit, which ye did not receive, or a different gospel, which ye did not accept

This more heavily applies to the leadership (current and ex), but it also applies to the commoner in the LC. I can tell you from my own experience that even though my parents didn't teach me to "disdain" other christians outside the LC it was still integrated into me through the strong influence of the LC environment. I knew I was better than other Christians. It was built into me implicitly by the fact that I had grown up in the LC. "We" had all the knowledge of Lee (<-- This is one of the drugs) and therefore could sit atop the mountain and look down on "poor, poor Christianity". I didn't have to choose to be in the group. I just grew up there and I got infected with this "bad habit".

It has been proven that Lee was operating in a false manner, so we know his teachings are leavened.

To the ex-Leaders/Midwest Leaders: What was the leaven of Lee? Are you clear about it? Is it as Hope says, primarily "Delegate Authority"? What about the underpinnings of "Delegate Authority", which was Nee's "Spiritual Authority". Is it correct? What is the leaven in his teachings?

To anyone who is an ex-leader or a current leader in the Midwest. Tell me what was wrong with Lee's teachings? Do you know? Do you see it clearly? Hope posits that it was A) Delegate Authority.

I feel scripture is very clear, that we each are responsible for our own life and in dealing with the sin, flesh and idols that come with it. I cannot deal with your sins, flesh and idols, but I can help you by encouraging you to pray for our Lord to expose the dark, hidden things in your life, that by His light and in the power of His grace the dark things can be confessed and washed away in His cleansing blood.

Shawn

What you expressed in your final paragraph is unbiblical. It is correct that we are responsible for our own life, but it is not correct that we have no responsibility for the sins of another brother/sister in Christ if we see their sin.

This has been established before from the Word of God and can be established again for your benefit.

We cannot "fix" someone else. This is where a lot of leadership oversteps. We are to be faithful to point out sin, but it is so that our brothers/sisters can go to the Lord. It has not been my attempt to "fix" others, but it has been my attempt to point at sin.

Matt

[Shawn]

Hi Matt,

The Drug abuser was only an example; my point was the lack of experience that is leading you to conclusions that are lacking substantiation, as evidenced by the abundance of counterpoints to your arguements from LC'ers.

Your response has been to address the example and not the 800 pound gorilla, of lack of experience that are weakening your argument.

I never said one does not treat the drug abuser, only that drawing from the experiences of one who has been there is the most effective way.

Igzy,

You are right in not slamming one who is in a trial to "help" by offering the hurting one a "suck it up and get on with it" suggestion. This is where the compassions of the Lord are needed in our hearts as we try to support a heart that is going through a painful experience; to know when it is time to quietly support and when it is time to offer a word that can help them to go on with their life. Again the qualifying factor is when it is best for the individual as opposed to when it is convenient for the group.

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Shawn

Hi Matt,

The Drug abuser was only an example; my point was the lack of experience that is leading you to conclusions that are lacking substantiation, as evidenced by the abundance of counterpoints to your arguements from LC'ers.

Your response has been to address the example and not the 800 pound gorilla, of lack of experience that are weakening your argument.

I never said one does not treat the drug abuser, only that drawing from the experiences of one who has been there is the most effective way.

Dear Shawn,

In what I have bolded above, it seems you are adding to the “Matt does not have enough experience to speak as he has done on this thread” theme.

I feel I should speak to Matt’s "experience" since that argument seems to keep coming up. I think it is better for me to do this than for Matt to have to continue to stand up alone to the 800 pounds worth of "counterpoint" punches that he has received on this thread.

I'd like to respectfully point out that Matt does not have a lack of experience when it comes to the topic of spiritual abuse in the Local Churches, which is reason for this thread. In brief he is qualified to speak because he is a 2nd generation LCer (this thread is about those from the 2nd generation) who is now an adult survivor of spiritual abuse carried out by an idolatrous, abusive LC leadership. And he didn't just survive, I might even venture to say, he overcame in this matter.

Today He is a fervent lover of Jesus and of every member of the body of Christ including those still in the LSM/LC. He has a heart that is open and willing to fellowship with any and all, at any time. He also loves the Word of God word for word. He is in a position to see the LC in terms of idolatry, having been sacrificed on one of the altars of Lee. He cares enough about those who did this to him and to many of his friends, to share with them what he learned in the process of recovering. He reads the Bible outside the Lee garlic room now. You would be astounded to hear the things God has shown him in the Old Testament, and not just about idolatry. He has shared very little on this forum of what he has learned there--in the Scriptures (O.T.), which, by the way Paul told Timothy were able to make him wise unto salvation.

I note that the punches have mainly been made against his person and experience, not against his biblical arguments or the historical facts he has presented about Lee’s history. One of the striking things missing against Matt's biblical presentations has been solid biblical refutation. I admit that there has been some, but it is worthy of note that this was done mainly by Peter Debelak, who is also a 2nd generation LCer.

Matt may not have experience as an LC leader who is saturated with the teachings of Lee and is qualified to abuse, but he most definitely has experience of being on the receiving end of such. If you and others are trying to say he didn't know Lee's teachings well enough to speak to them, them you have no basis to say that, not knowing the facts.

Matt has a high capacity for absorbing information. He has been like that since early childhood. He grew up in an environment where Lee’s teachings were the main diet. He heard them day after day in his own home, which he shared with the small army of sisters who lived with us over the years. When we left, I encouraged him to read life studies and I even read them to/with him, hoping they would help him. After we were out, we spent a number of years working through family problems that forced us to face our past and dig down to the level of our wrong beliefs and find what lay at the root of them. We had to rethink Lee's teachings and discover what the Bible actually teaches about what he said. We (including Matt) had many, many discussions about Lee’s teachings among ourselves and with other ex Local Churchers, using the Bible as our guide through them. The Lord brought brothers like Bill Mallon and John Ingalls for extended visits to our home a number of times and Matt had fellowship with them one on one, especially with Bill.

I’d like to ask just what experience do all the counterpointers have to be able to speak about this topic? Maybe the 800 lb. gorilla is their inexperience with regard to understanding 2nd generation abuse. How many of them have had the experience of being sacrificed on Lee's altar? (I don’t have the time here to share about how this happened to Matt, but maybe I will later.) How many of them have taken the time to follow up with 2nd generation LCers or to help them recover? How much time have they spent studying the Scriptures on their own, without the Lee veil? So, again, maybe the 800 lb. gorilla is their inexperience, not Matt’s.

Matt mercifully did not end up in one of the categories introduced in the opening post of this thread, as many of his friends did. As I said, I suspect he may have more right to speak here than many of those who have been doing so. He has helped other 2nd generation LCers recover. Have any of the naysayers here done that?

Honestly, Shawn, when I saw some of the posts accusing Matt that he was acting like WL as the oracle, I felt deeply ashamed that any one would speak this way to a young man who survived their 1st generation-created system and yet loves them enough to be here dialoguing with them. I can assure you he has a real life outside of this forum with enough involvements with family, job, and other Christians to fill his hands. I would not be surprised to see him leave here. In fact, I think I would recommend it. I am considering doing the same and allowing all of you to have your chats with one another and remember the glory days of old until Jesus comes, without having to think about possible explanations for our past that are uncomfortable. I haven’t asked the Lord about that yet, so I don’t know if He will let me leave, but I am going to be asking.

I have wept over what happened among us. I have seen others do the same. Shouldn’t we be weeping at the broken down walls of God’s house (family) and the heaps of rubble (His wounded children) left behind? Shouldn’t we be weeping in response to realizing how much abuse and destruction took place among us?

Shouldn’t we all humble ourselves and ask the Lord to have mercy on us. Shouldn’t we all repent for what happened among us because we all played a part in creating an environment that opened the door for abuse. If God is weeping, shouldn’t we join him?

Thankful Jane

[Thankful Jane]

I wrote this a few weeks ago in response to a post by Terry, but decided not to post it then. Today, I think I should. It is l-o-n-g, which some complain about, so I please forgive. There is no short way to tell the story included in this. I also think my writing style is in my DNA, so it's hard to change. If long is bad to you, then I suggest you just don’t read this!!!

Originally Posted by Terry

Jane, when I learned of your story, blessD's, Bill W's, and who knows how many more, I have empathy. When one member of the Body suffers, we all suffer. I have.

Thank you, Terry. What you said brought back the memory of an experience that I had a few years ago that I think I should share.

First, let me say that I appreciate your gentle heart. To have genuine empathy for others and to express how we feel in words of comfort is the normal response when we learn about people who have been hurt by people in places of power. It shows we have a compassionate heart like His. Because I have been so thoroughly helped by God and so healed by His love, I honestly don’t think I need others to feel sympathy for me and am not seeking sympathy whenever I mention what happened to me. However, God has taught me that it is very good for us as members of His family to strongly express our feelings of love and care for one another and also to accept such expressions of love.

In January 2006, about 3 months after our book was published, I had a very, very unusual experience with the Lord which I will never forget. It gave me a very personal and real look at His heart of love for us.

One day, I was at home sitting at my computer writing with no travel plans in mind and three or four days later I was in Anaheim on a whirlwind visit of 4 days. I felt like I had been picked up by the Spirit and transported there. I won’t share how this came about, but it had the handiwork of God stamped all over it, as did the whole trip. My son, Matt, was with me. From the time our feet touched the ground until the time we departed, we were carried by the Spirit from one heaven-made appointment to the next. The Lord set the agenda as the days unfolded, and we hardly had time to eat, sleep, or change clothes.

What I want to share is about the experience I had with 4 different brothers on that trip and what God showed me as a result.

The first brother is one that I met 35 years ago and had not seen since that time. While Matt and I were with him and with two others having breakfast in a restaurant, the Lord appeared. I won’t share particulars of what happened there in our fellowship, but the Spirit was so awesomely present for a period of time that even the waitress and people near by were stopped and listening. Afterwards, Matt and I attended a very dry, dull, and dead Christian meeting with the first brother. After that meeting he stopped me and said, “Jane, before you get away, I have to say something ....” Tears welled up in his eyes and he said, “What happened at that restaurant was .... INCREDIBLE!” I said, “Yes, it was!” We both knew the Lord had been there. (And we also both knew that the meeting we had just suffered through had the Lord no where in sight.) He continued to shake his head and show great emotion. He said a little more, the essence of which was that the experience in the restaurant had been a reminder of what it was like to have the Lord present in fellowship. It had moved him to tears. He wanted me to try and tell another brother (an elder among them) what had happened at the restaurant, and he called this elder over to where we sat. I tried to say something to him, but quickly realized this brother had no interest. He was clearly pre-occupied with his own things and service to God and hurried away. The 35-year-ago brother wanted him to know that he had just been with Jesus in a way reminiscent of the past, but there simply were no ears to hear.

Now to the second brother. After lunch that day, another brother came and introduced himself to me. He was an ex-LC elder that I had seen, but never met before. He had disappeared off the radar many years before and I never knew what happened to him. He said a few things to me, left, returned, said a few more things, left, returned, and said more things. Each time he returned, he was becoming more emotional until the third time we were both standing there crying. (Remember we had never met before!)

He told me that someone had given him and his wife a copy of my book and he had been trying to read it, but it was very hard for him. By the third return, he had managed to tell me that he had been hurt by very strong women in his life. He thought that the fact that I had written a book meant I was probably just another strong woman. This was the reason he was having a hard time trying to read it. He told me how much it had helped him to meet me in person and that our meeting had taken that thought completely away. As he shared more he began to cry, and I did also. The Lord’s presence was very strong as we stood there talking and crying. I still have that picture in my mind as clearly as if it had happened yesterday. I had never experienced anything like that before.

Here’s the picture: a man, a Christian brother, who had been deeply wounded by women during his lifetime (both relatives and Christian women), standing before me, a Christian sister, who had been deeply wounded by men in my life (both relatives and Christian men). We were both crying and the Spirit was palpably there crying with us. I felt like we were being given a foretaste of the powerful work of the Spirit to heal every wound and to wash away every hurt and even to remove the memories of all the harm people had inflicted on one another. It was like a miniature of the whole body of Christ with men and women being washed and made whole and restored to one another by the Spirit. I just don’t have the words for it was like, but I knew the Lord was showing me something of His work to come.

Now to the third brother. After this we went to the home of a brother and sister who had invited us to come and visit with them. I had never met either of them before, but had heard the brother’s name before. They had received a copy of my book and had read it. That is why we were invited. We had some small talk, mostly us asking them questions about themselves. Then, the brother turned the conversation to us. He said he had something he wanted to say. He opened his mouth to speak and couldn’t. He looked at me and much to my surprise, he burst into tears. His whole body shook as he wept. I was stunned, as was Matt. He wept a minute or so then he finally spoke. “Sister, what they did to you! I want to tell you how very sorry I am!” He proceeded to vocalize his sorrow for my experience and continued to weep. He was not just crying, he was sobbing and weeping and shaking. I didn’t know what to say or how to respond. I tried to comfort him, saying, “Brother, it’s okay. I am okay. I am thankful for everything.” He said, “No, I need to say it. It was terrible. I am so very, very sorry!” He shed more tears.

Afterwards, as I reflected on what had happened, the Lord showed me that He was using this very caring and tenderhearted brother to show me His own heart. This was how God feels about those who are abused. I will never, ever, ever, forget that experience.

And lastly, the fourth brother. The next day, Matt and I were invited to the home of this brother, whom we had never met before. He had contacted me via email after reading my book. As we sat in his living room and talked a little, all of sudden he stopped talking and began to weep and sob just as the third brother had done. He said (paraphrased to the best of my memory), “What the brothers have done to so many. What they did to me. They just don’t know. The Lord’s heart is so grieved and breaking.” Matt and I began to cry with him. We all sat on the couch together and cried. We prayed together for our Father to forgive those who had hurt others and heal us all.

I’m sharing all this to show what I saw through these experiences about the heart of God towards all of us. Like the first brother, God is grieving for what we have lost that is rightfully ours: His prevailing and powerful presence. Like the picture God gave me in my experience with the second brother, God wants to and will wash and heal and restore us one to another, both male and female, as we communicate and confess our faults one to another. Like the third brother, He is in agony of heart for the wounded and abused. He loves them so deeply and has hurt with them. Even though they couldn’t see it at the time, He was afflicted with them. Like the last brother, He is full of sorrow over those who have done such damage to their own brothers.

The impression made on me during this trip by these godly brothers who let me see the Lord in the deep feelings of their heart, has remained. I felt I had been given a look into the very heart of love of our longsuffering God.

Right now its hard to type because the memory is also making me cry again. Terry, your post reminded me that God is weeping over us.

He let us see His tears for His people through Jeremiah. At the same time, God also spoke hard words through Jeremiah, because whom He loves He rebukes and chastens. His correction is His love and mercy. His words of warning in the Bible that expose our idolatrous hearts should bring us to our knees with tears of repentance.

....continued in another post ...

[Paul Cox]

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

He has helped other 2nd generation LCers recover. Have any of the naysayers here done that?

Jane,

I can't speak for the other "naysayers" here, but I have helped 1st and 2nd generation LCers recover, and continue to do so by phone, email, and in person. I pray with ex-local church members on a weekly basis for those dear members. But I would never assume that my experience is anything other than a part of the whole, and I know that there are others who are doing far, far more than I am doing.

I was the one who compared Matt to Witness Lee. I certainly didn’t mean it in every respect. It had to do with his insistence upon saying that all who are in the Local Church are engaging in idolatry. He has been quoted on this when he asked for proof. It had to do with what seemed to be an unwillingness to be balanced by the rest of the members here.

Sorry, but I don’t hesitate to mention Matt’s youth. With youth there must be a certain amount of inexperience. It’s only common sense. Watchman Nee, for example, I think, was far too young to be taken too seriously when he wrote the Spiritual Man at only 26. He was a brilliant man, but the work was mostly cerebral.

Jane we were all there. When one man came forth and insisted that what he was saying was the only correct viewpoint, we were all called "naysayers."

Roger

[Shawn]

Sorry for the 800 pound gorilla remark, it was a little too colorful and off base, I will try to avoid uneeded hyperbole in the future.

I would say that the LC was not devoid of healthy teachings, I have heard quotes that 80 percent of the teachings of WL were founded in the brethern movement. Therefore, on the basics Christ was recognized as the preeminient One. This was clear in my understanding of the teachings of Witness Lee.

WL was not the minister of the age and is not perfect, but there was the element of experiencing Christ that is in his ministry and as such, can lay the ground work for a healthy practice of the church.
Many used his teachings and eventually brought him into an unhealthy exclusive understanding and practice of the church.

Do you remember he wrothe the book "Experiencing Christ?" he didn't write "Eexperiencing the Church" and if you look at that book there are ample references to knowing the Lord Jesus, that can be used in any Sunday School class to have a better understanding of how to know and live Jesus.

Today, there are many problems, that had their start early on in his ministry, but to ignore some of the teachings that were helpful will only cause the adjusting to go on to counter statements like "all who have attended are decieved, or the ministry was influensed by Satan. Sorry, I don't have the direct references and I have to run, please correct if I'm wrong.

Grace to you!

Shawn