How much is a "Morning Revival"?

Originally Posted by aron

See the link in post #8

I think probably, like a "local church" that is subject to LSM but legally separate.

Is it possible to break that "bond?" The reason I asked is because I am so grateful to a brother J. who happens to be an elder in a local church. I don't want to make him sad if he knows I left the local church for good. Why is LSM strong armed to every local church? Brother Aron, I read your recent posts and they gave me light and support. Brother J. helped me greatly, too. What should I do?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Is it possible to break that "bond?"

Of course. Any bond can be broken. The question is, are you prepared to break it? Are you ready for what comes next? Everything you thought you knew comes apart. If you have "the church" and not "God" as your navigational center, and you let go of the church as the focal point of your universe you will have to find a new God. Or rather, you will have to let God find you, wherever you find yourself. Do you believe God can do that? If you reply 'Yes', then let go.

Why is LSM strong armed to every local church?

It seems as if everyone has their own answer to this question. My best attempt at an answer is probably found in the way societies structure themselves. See my comments in "The Asian mind and the Western mind" thread. If you are Asian, you may have some helpful comments from within your own socially-developed understandings that help us with this. Nee & Lee came from a culture that said, "Never question authority." See Nee's writings to the Chinese saints vis-a-vis the newly victorious Communists in the early 1950s. Strict obedience to the state was a given.

Today, of course, absolute submission is dressed up in spiritual garb: "the ministry of the age" and "the Lord's present testimony" and "the oneness of the Body of Christ". But in reality it means one thing: I am the Boss. It is an unquestioned and unchallenged statement, and because it's unquestioned it remains firmly in place. Its very survival depends on its not being questioned. As soon as you begin to critically poke at the underlying assumptions it collapses fairly quickly.

Remember, you didn't go through what you went through, for nothing. God is a businessman, who wants to use your experiences to help others. God has an investment in you. So your journey is not a selfish one, but it is tied up, somehow, with the journeys of many others. Trust God and continue your journey. You are not alone.

If I have learned anything, it is that I am unqualified to serve God. So is your friend "J". Everyone is partly compromised, including Witness Lee. Only Jesus can serve God. So take your eyes off of "J", off of your situation, off of the church as you understand it, off of your history. Watch Jesus. Watch Him carefully.

When Jesus said, "I am the way", He was serious: He is the way. Let go of everything else.

[HERn]

Hello Unregistered. I would like to make a comment on "breaking the bond" and "watching Jesus carefully" as mentioned by bro Aron. I have benefitted greatly by reading the gospels without anyone's footnotes (LSM, others) and just learning about Jesus afresh. I think I need a "freshening" (maybe continually). Sometimes in the Lord's Recovery the thinking is to go beyond the "low gospel" (I hate that term now), the Jesus in the gospels into so-called high peak things like the seven-fold intensified spirit, the processed and consummated god...how can we go on beyond our precious Lord and savior Jesus Christ? To me there is nothing beyond Him.

[aron]

Originally Posted by HERn

... so-called high peak things like the seven-fold intensified spirit, the processed and consummated god...how can we go on beyond our precious Lord and savior Jesus Christ? To me there is nothing beyond Him.

You may find, after leaving the Lord's Recovery, that God is much more "intensified", more "processed", and more "consummated" than you ever dreamed possible! The LSM folks tell you that's impossible. But I'm saying its possible. I'm not saying it is certain, like Lee saying that as long as you stay on the "ground" you're sanctified. But I'm saying it's possible. But first you have to be willing to let go of what you think you know.

Think of it this way: for the prodigal son to get the robe and ring and fatted calf he had to let go of the pig sty. Not easy to do; he was probably clinging to it, white-knuckled and snarling, when he came to his senses. But when he let go, and turned, and began to seek, a new reality opened for him.

What I find so interesting about the parable of the prodigal son is that he "remembered" reality, just like Nebuchadnezzar had done; suddenly he remembered his Father, and the house where he belonged. But until he remembered, the pig trough was his home. Reality was there the whole time. But he had to remember, and look up.

LSM folks don't seem to offer much but re-packaged Lee, combined with constantly reinforced warnings not to look around, not to look up, not to let go, not to consider, not to question. Supposedly terror and doom await you if you look away from the brotherhood of Lee's ministry. Why are they so terrified of anyone reading the Bible without Lee's voice in their ear? Or of reading someone else's interpretation?

Originally Posted by HERn

Sometimes in the Lord's Recovery the thinking is to go beyond the "low gospel" (I hate that term now), the Jesus in the gospels into so-called high peak things like the seven-fold intensified spirit, the processed and consummated god...how can we go on beyond our precious Lord and savior Jesus Christ? To me there is nothing beyond Him.

Indeed, I need to come to God and pray to Him, knowing that He loves me dearly. Semi-mandatory speaking in the meeting really shuts me off completely. It is probably my own problem. However, I quite like some pastors' talks about God's love on the youtube. I wish that someday this website can add on some video/audio messages. I'd love to hear brother Aron's talks about how God loves all of us and our Jesus is the way in our daily life.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Indeed, I need to come to God and pray to Him, knowing that He loves me dearly. Semi-mandatory speaking in the meeting really shuts me off completely. It is probably my own problem. However, I quite like some pastors' talks about God's love on the youtube. I wish that someday this website can add on some video/audio messages. I'd love to hear brother Aron's talks about how God loves all of us and our Jesus is the way in our daily life.

Hee..hee Aron ! Make a you tube for everyone!!! Trust the Holy Spirit to guide and anoint you !!!!!!!!!

[Freedom]

During the "prophesying" time, I rarely pay attention to what's going on. I also don't participate ever. Somehow I have been able to get away with it for some time now.

The point was brought up that the HWFMR is very "needy". I can attest to that. In fact, most of the sharing I hear on it is all about how lacking a person is or how many problems they have. It gets really old really fast.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't be concerned with everyone's needs, but all too often in the LC we hear about everyone's needs and shortcomings and there is no way forward.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Freedom

During the "prophesying" time, I rarely pay attention to what's going on. I also don't participate ever. Somehow I have been able to get away with it for some time now.

The point was brought up that the HWFMR is very "needy". I can attest to that. In fact, most of the sharing I hear on it is all about how lacking a person is or how many problems they have. It gets really old really fast.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't be concerned with everyone's needs, but all too often in the LC we hear about everyone's needs and shortcomings and there is no way forward.

Well..that explains why the couple of people I stayed in touch with from the Lc were abnormally and unbearably needy! We all have our UPS and downs and while we need friends we should rely on our Savior first and foremost!

[Eph]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Hee..hee Aron ! Make a you tube for everyone!!! Trust the Holy Spirit to guide and anoint you !!!!!!!!!

Yes, please, Aron. I am sincere as well as Carol. Just by knowing a little about how God loves me through His only Son helps someone like me. I don't have the gift to speak about Him publicly, but I do believe some of you on the forum have a gift to share with many of us about how God loves us in our daily life.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Eph

Yes, please, Aron. I am sincere as well as Carol. Just by knowing a little about how God loves me through His only Son helps someone like me. I don't have the gift to speak about Him publicly, but I do believe some of you on the forum have a gift to share with many of us about how God loves us in our daily life.

Thank you for the invitation but I must demur*. I'm not qualified to give lessons. Besides, this is the internet, a virtual world, so I don't really buy deeply into it. I just post here occasionally because I like to write; I don't want to become a preacher who has to churn our a sermon every Sunday morning. But I will leave you with a couple of ideas to consider.

1. What you do to others, God will do to you. Believe me, how you treat "the least of these my brothers" is how God will treat you. Over and over this message is given in the gospels. The parables say the same thing, 15 different ways. Even the so-called "Lord's prayer" has this formula, with commentary even (!).

"Forgive us, even as we forgive others". What you do to others is what God will do to you.

In the LSM system, they will give a college Freshman a ride to the airport at 2 am because they expect a return on their investment. But an old lady? "Don't waste your time" is the FTTA directive. Instead, "Go after the good building material." But the Lord Jesus said to invite those who have no means to repay you. The LSM system only wants to "invest" in those who promise them a good return.

If you feel poor, weak, sick, or lost, think about this: there is someone near you even poorer, sicker, weaker, and more lost than you are. Tell them God loves them. Tell them about Jesus who came here because their Father in heaven loves them, and wants them to come home. Tell them, because it is true. And as you begin to help others, God will begin to help you. If you want to be blessed, then figure out how to be a blessing to others; believe me, God is watching you, and waiting for you to take a few small steps of faith. If "Help me" is your only prayer, God can't do much. If you pray, "God, use me to help others" you will be blessed beyond your capacity, beyond what you could possibly imagine.

2. DO NOT MAKE PLANS. I cannot overstress this. Do not tell the Holy Spirit what it should do, or how and when it should do it. Only the Father's will is done on earth, as it is in heaven. The Father knows everything. The Holy Spirit will never obey you; it only obeys the Father. You and I know nothing. All we are supposed to know is A) repent, and B) believe into the Lord Jesus Christ**. This is the path of salvation. Don't add your ideas to the pathway. They will perish and you will suffer loss.

I would remind you that 74 people went up onto the holy mountain, and saw God, and ate and drank, and God did not strike them. God invited them up there for lunch. They saw the pavement of sapphire. They saw the seven spirits burning before the throne.***

But only 72 made it down. Two of them made plans, and lit a fire. Bad move. Only seven flames are permitted to burn before the throne, not eight. The scriptural record then says "fire came out from before the throne and consumed them". Those seven flames are very jealous. Don't try to add another, of your own making. They are like the flaming swords in Genesis, turning each way; they will never let you get back to the Father. Only Jesus is qualified to walk among the seven golden lampstands. Everyone else will be consumed. Don't try it. Just watch Jesus. Watch Him carefully. He shows us the way.

Just watch Jesus. Never take your eyes off of Him. Then you will have a very rich entrance into the kingdom. Peter told us this, and Peter was a big failure, like you and me. So be encouraged, and press on. Don't ever give up. Those who endure to the end will be saved. We have the promise. Believe it and keep going.


*Demur = show reluctance

** The disciples asked, "Lord, what work should we do, that we may work the works of God?" The Lord Jesus replied, "Believe into Him whom God has sent".

***So I surmise, as Moses apparently built the "Menorah" according to what he saw on the mountain. See John's commentary in the book of Revelation

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Eph

Yes, please, Aron. I am sincere as well as Carol. Just by knowing a little about how God loves me through His only Son helps someone like me. I don't have the gift to speak about Him publicly, but I do believe some of you on the forum have a gift to share with many of us about how God loves us in our daily life.

But then aron will no longer be anon.

Originally Posted by aron

Of course. Any bond can be broken. The question is, are you prepared to break it? Are you ready for what comes next? Everything you thought you knew comes apart. If you have "the church" and not "God" as your navigational center, and you let go of the church as the focal point of your universe you will have to find a new God. Or rather, you will have to let God find you, wherever you find yourself. Do you believe God can do that? If you reply 'Yes', then let go.

It seems as if everyone has their own answer to this question. My best attempt at an answer is probably found in the way societies structure themselves. See my comments in "The Asian mind and the Western mind" thread. If you are Asian, you may have some helpful comments from within your own socially-developed understandings that help us with this. Nee & Lee came from a culture that said, "Never question authority." See Nee's writings to the Chinese saints vis-a-vis the newly victorious Communists in the early 1950s. Strict obedience to the state was a given.

Today, of course, absolute submission is dressed up in spiritual garb: "the ministry of the age" and "the Lord's present testimony" and "the oneness of the Body of Christ". But in reality it means one thing: I am the Boss. It is an unquestioned and unchallenged statement, and because it's unquestioned it remains firmly in place. Its very survival depends on its not being questioned. As soon as you begin to critically poke at the underlying assumptions it collapses fairly quickly.

Remember, you didn't go through what you went through, for nothing. God is a businessman, who wants to use your experiences to help others. God has an investment in you. So your journey is not a selfish one, but it is tied up, somehow, with the journeys of many others. Trust God and continue your journey. You are not alone.

If I have learned anything, it is that I am unqualified to serve God. So is your friend "J". Everyone is partly compromised, including Witness Lee. Only Jesus can serve God. So take your eyes off of "J", off of your situation, off of the church as you understand it, off of your history. Watch Jesus. Watch Him carefully.

When Jesus said, "I am the way", He was serious: He is the way. Let go of everything else.

The more I read your posts, the more I feel that you and brother "J" are much alike in God's life, always willing to help the weak ones like me. Indeed, I am the Asian Mind (haven't read your article yet, will soon) and English is my second language. In a broader sense, it is individualism (western) vs. collectivism (eastern). I remember, my American advisor once asked me a question I'd never forget: "you used "we" quite a bit in your research paper, not "I""? Then, I realized the concept is somehow born to me since I grew up in an eastern environment. So there is the "blended" and "corporate" concept because voting is not allowed. That might also explain a bit why Witness Lee's teaching is quite "followed" by Chinese and Taiwanese. Of course, ethnic factor plays a role too. My friend "J" is a 100% white male, though, a great servant of God. He is probably the only reason I still not renounce my local church affiliation openly, though I don't meet with them anymore. Yes, brother Aron, I will watch Jesus, watch Him carefully, and knowing Him is my way.

[UntoHim]

Hey "Unregistered", when you get a chance, could you please send a request along with a desired UserName to LocalChurchDiscussions@Gmail.Com. When you do this your posts will not have to go through the moderation que and will appear on the forum right away. Also you will have the added benefit of access to the Private Message system.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

The more I read your posts, the more I feel that you and brother "J" are much alike in God's life, always willing to help the weak ones like me. Indeed, I am the Asian Mind (haven't read your article yet, will soon) and English is my second language. In a broader sense, it is individualism (western) vs. collectivism (eastern). I remember, my American advisor once asked me a question I'd never forget: "you used "we" quite a bit in your research paper, not "I""? Then, I realized the concept is somehow born to me since I grew up in an eastern environment. So there is the "blended" and "corporate" concept because voting is not allowed. That might also explain a bit why Witness Lee's teaching is quite "followed" by Chinese and Taiwanese. Of course, ethnic factor plays a role too. My friend "J" is a 100% white male, though, a great servant of God. He is probably the only reason I still not renounce my local church affiliation openly, though I don't meet with them anymore. Yes, brother Aron, I will watch Jesus, watch Him carefully, and knowing Him is my way.

Thanks for mentioning the individualism vs collectivism observation ! Many books have been written about collectivism..and movies too... 1984, Animal Farm, the Matrix and others.

never even considered that aspect of the LC. Lee and maybe Nee confused the unity of the Spirit with collectivism. Never even saw it coming. But it all makes sense now.

Also...ask the Holy Spirit to help you get to know Lord Jesus in a deeper way..that you may enter into a deeper relationship with HIM...trusting HIM, depending on HIM...not so much on people's thoughts. Fellowship and Insight from others is wonderful until we rely on them and not on the HOLY Spirit's guidance.

Showers of God's LOVE and Blessings in abundance to you,
Carol

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Is it possible to break that "bond?" The reason I asked is because I am so grateful to a brother J. who happens to be an elder in a local church. I don't want to make him sad if he knows I left the local church for good. ... Brother Aron, I read your recent posts and they gave me light and support. Brother J. helped me greatly, too. What should I do?

Hi unregistered.
YES! IT IS POSSIBLE to break the bonds. However... the memories will linger. And that's just part of life on this earth.

What helped me break the bonds is GIVING THANKS and asking the LORD to bless those who blessed me while in the LC.

I am thankful that (back in the 70s) I was encouraged to read and 'pray read' scriptures and read the Word. As an example. Several months after I had become saved and was pretty much an 'LCr', I went to an LC home for lunch/dinner. There was a picture of a loaf of bread on the wall with the inscription 'I AM THE BREAD OF LIFE'. I stopped to ponder the picture and scripture, and suddenly 'bing', the LIGHT lit up ! I had my AH -HA moment. Because I/we had been eating Jesus for all those months, Holy Spirit GOD revealed the understanding to me.

So I am thankful for my Salvation, Deliverance and the spiritual care I received. When the focus was intensified on Lee and the church, the Presence and Love for Father God, Son/Word, Jesus and Holy Spirit, Voice of God left. HE went POOF! and so did I! I left. Was it easy? Nope! But His Goodness and His Mercy followed me wherever I went. And He will do the same with you. HE WILL NOT FORSAKE YOU OR LEAVE YOU...only draw you nearer to Him and give you renewed Strength in Him.

Why is LSM strong armed to every local church?

Because it has a deep desire and hunger to 'CONTROL'. Every leader if not truly seeking the Counsel of the Holy Spirit will inevitably taste the POWER of CONTROL. Look at our political leaders and religious leaders...(not only in this country btw)

AND it is people...the lay people... the 'common' folks that give that POWER to control. A good leader and a good teacher in the LORD will help a person or congregation to FOLLOW THE SPIRIT and the LIGHT of the Word.

That doesn't mean we stop fellowshipping and learning from one another. Simply means... STOP idolizing a leader !!!!!!!!!!!

And that is what the LC did. They took their eyes of Jesus, stopped walking in the SPIRIT...and relied on Lee and the footnotes, the morning revivals, the trainings, etc..... to FEED them....and accecpt ONLY THEIR FOOD.

That is why there are so many sickly LSMrs.

The GOOD NEWS! Our Awesome KING and SAVIOR, LORD and DELIVERER JESUS will guide us all back to Himself. His sheep KNOW His Voice (Holy Spirit) and will lead us ALL back to Himself. He restores our health and heals our wounds. That's His Promise. And Jesus is a KEEPER of His Promise.

Blessings on your Journey !!!!!!!!!
Carol

[aron]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

... it has a deep desire and hunger to 'CONTROL'. Every leader if not truly seeking the Counsel of the Holy Spirit will inevitably taste the POWER of CONTROL. Look at our political leaders and religious leaders...(not only in this country btw)

This reminds me of the HWFMR outlines, they're full of "we need to" and "we must" and "we should" and "we have to". All showing deep-seated dissatisfaction, being manifested through a ministry of need. The need for power masks insecurity.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by aron

This reminds me of the HWFMR outlines, they're full of "we need to" and "we must" and "we should" and "we have to". All showing deep-seated dissatisfaction, being manifested through a ministry of need. The need for power masks insecurity.

So very TRUE.... Controlling people are insecure. They mask it behind their need to control. Some people are secure being controlled too. Strange and odd bedfellows.. But the most exact example of this 'spirit' is Jezebel and Ahab. Ahab was weak and insecure. Jezebel, evil and controlling. But Ahab listened to her every word.

AND...while Jezebel was female and Ahab male... it works both ways... That evil spirit doesn't give a hoot about gender. The Roman Catholic church is very controlling and if indeed it is represented by Thyatira..then GOD compares the RCC to Jezebel. Pope..and (Jesuits control the Vatican)...and the RCC organization is made up by non married men... Pope, Cardinals, Bishops, priests...

In the case of the LSM... women were/are allowed to 'testify' or what is now called I believe 'prophesy' but they will never be allowed to be blended leaders.

Not that it matters because all religious systems are controlled by Jezebel.

The Bride is not part of a religious system. There might be Bridal people in religious systems but deep down they are following the Spirit until He calls them out.

More and more people are leaving the organized religious system be it Catholic, 'protestant' or LSM.
Showers of Blessings !!!!!