Became or Not Became - Interpreting 1Cor 15:45

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

It not my logic. It's Paul's expectation that the resurrection/change was to happen in his/their lifetime. Then, you are right, it would happen to all living believers of Paul's generation, not just Paul and the Corinthians.

"We shall not all sleep," did not mean that 20 centuries, or more, of believers shall sleep. "WE, that is WE, shall not all sleep."

It is your logic, or lack thereof, that is stretching WE to mean 20 or more centuries of WE's sleeping. We were not the we Paul was speaking about. Clearly Paul expected the resurrection/change would happen in the lifetime of some he was writing to.

He was wrong.

You are trying to make the word we say more than it does. There is ambiguity in the word that must be precluded to make your point. You wish we to mean only Paul and the Corinthians. But it can just as easily mean Paul and all Christians including the Corinthians. And, that can be the case regardless of the specific unstated span of time that may have been in Paul's mind. There is no scientific evidence that mind-reading without an fMRI is a real phenomenon. So, while the ambiguity of Paul's statement is such that your interpretation cannot be conclusively refuted, the same ambiguity leaves the statement open to the more inclusive traditional interpretation of the verse.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

There is no scientific evidence that mind-reading without an fMRI is a real phenomenon. So, while the ambiguity of Paul's statement is such that your interpretation cannot be conclusively refuted, the same ambiguity leaves the statement open to the more inclusive traditional interpretation of the verse.

There's no need for mind-reading Paul. That Paul expected the last Adam to become the life-giving spirit was imminent is revealed not only in the "not all shall sleep verse," but elsewhere:

1Co 7:29 But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none;
1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

There's no need for mind-reading Paul. That Paul expected the last Adam to become the life-giving spirit was imminent is revealed not only in the "not all shall sleep verse," but elsewhere:

1Co 7:29 But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none;

1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

"The Greek word εγενετο commonly translated "was made" or "became" clearly shows that Paul believed that Jesus as the last Adam was already a life-giving spirit rather than that he "expected the last Adam to become the life-giving spirit was imminent"[sic] as you assert. Paul was mistaken about the time being so short that they needed to act as if they didn't have wives in I Cor 7:29. I Cor 10:11 and Galatians 1:4 do confirm that Paul believed he lived at the end of the eon. However, it doesn't follow from those statements that Paul's teaching that all would not die before the second coming of Christ was intended to apply only to the Corinthian receivers of his epistle. As long as there are living believers who are transfigured when Jesus returns, Paul's statement in I Cor 15:51 will still be logically and factually correct. To remove the ambiguity from the verse Paul could have said either "you and I" which would have made it clear that he was only referring only to himself and the Corinthians or "we Christians" which would have made it clear that it applied to all Christians. As it is, the verse could have either meaning.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

However, it doesn't follow from those statements that Paul's teaching that all would not die before the second coming of Christ was intended to apply only to the Corinthian receivers of his epistle.

Just so we understand, I did not say that the resurrection and change would happen only to the Corinthians. That's very obvious when we talk the resurrection, which includes way more than the Corinthians (and would mean it's a good thing we'll have spiritual bodies - as the earth will be so crowded many of us will be forced to stand in the same place at the same time).

Beside that, the resurrection and change Paul was telling the Corinthians about is an event -- yet to happen at that time -- that applied to all believers.

But the WE, in that verse, I'm saying, applies to those living back then ; that generation, of Paul & the Corinthians.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

Just so we understand, I did not say that the resurrection and change would happen only to the Corinthians. That's very obvious when we talk the resurrection, which includes way more than the Corinthians (and would mean it's a good thing we'll have spiritual bodies - as the earth will be so crowded many of us will be forced to stand in the same place at the same time).

Beside that, the resurrection and change Paul was telling the Corinthians about is an event -- yet to happen at that time -- that applied to all believers.

But the WE, in that verse, I'm saying, applies to those living back then ; that generation, of Paul & the Corinthians.

Based on other verses, it does seem that Paul believed that transfiguration would occur in his lifetime or at least in the lifetime of some of his contemporaries. Yes. But he doesn't explicitly claim that in 15:51. No. Taken by itself as a proposition 15:51 doesn't entail a time frame. It merely asserts that for some of us including the Corinthians and Paul, the transfiguration will come before death arrives. It doesn't give a time frame. Consequently, what is stated in 15:51 could still happen. I think you are bringing a preterist hermeneutic assumption to the verse that is not justified by the text.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

Based on other verses, it does seem that Paul believed that transfiguration would occur in his lifetime or at least in the lifetime of some of his contemporaries. Yes.

They, just like the 50 or so generations of believers since, like believers in our generation, like even Witness Lee, believed the Lord was coming back in their/our generation.

Like my Pentecostal preacher friend tells me: "We're living in the last days."

That's what Paul though about when the last Adam would become the life-giving spirit. He thought it would happen before he, and others, slept.

They all sleep.

[UntoHim]

As I have previously noted, this term "life-giving spirit" appears to be an originally coined term (for any of you phraseology geeks out there - Neologism). Upon further review of this Greek word, ζῳοποιέω - zōopoieō I think that "originally coined term" may very well not portray the best description of the term itself. The following four verses contain this Greek word ζῳοποιέω - zōopoieō, and all of them link, directly or indirectly, the Lord Jesus as a life giver, and this giving of life is inextricably linked with the Person of the Holy Spirit.

I'm sort of being my own devil's advocate here, but there will be a method to my madness if you will just follow me as close as you can. If this makes any sense at all, I think that Witness Lee was not as far off as I and so many others have tried to argue for. The best way I can try to explain is to say that Witness Lee was right for the wrong reasons, or maybe that he was half right and half wrong.

Let's take a look at the following four verses:
For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will.
John 5:21

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life
John 6:63

If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
Romans 8:11

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,
1 Peter 3:18

Interestingly enough, only one of these verses contain the Greek word ζῳοποιέω - zōopoieō, immediately followed by the Greek word πνεῦμα - pneuma, and it was not the apostle Paul, but the apostle Peter. (1 Peter 3:18) For obvious grammatical reasons, the translators chose to translate these two Greek words as "made alive in the spirit", but the more I review this particular phrase (by Peter), the more I think that my previous insistence that "live-giving spirit" in 1 Cor 15:45 is not directly related to the Person and/or work of the Holy Spirit is at lease partially flawed.

Lots more to say, but enough for now.