In a local church only a few months... and now leaving.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by love4truth

How can we be in unity as the church if we do not love one another?

In the local churches, most (but not all) are welcomed to come and meet. The love and care that should be without bias, is measured according to ones love for the ministry. That is why it is difficult for local churches to keep a sustained growth. If one has a "take it or leave it" approach to the ministry publications, that one might be considered a waste of time to labor on in love and care.
Talk about unity. Yes there should be unity in the church, but when your common denominator is ministry publications instead of the Bible, in essence it's not local churches, but ministry churches. A fellowship of churches that's more based on uniformity than it is unity. Before there can be unity, there must be love.

Hello,

I am currently a college student in which I have a friend who's family has had very strong ties in the local church. She has currently been re-sucked into the church, just after about 10 years of disliking the church, and of having negative feelings for it all throughout her high school and most of her college career.

She has been feeling a lot of inner turmoil - a lot of trying to please mom and dad in the name of God while also feeling detached from the church. She's never felt that she belongs.

I'm worried she's going to try to change herself and get sucked into this for her life when in her heart she doesn't feel that way. I still have her questioning and stuff, but I literally have her by a thread. It's only a matter of time before she completely gets rid of me.

Any advice on getting someone out of LC?

[UntoHim]

Hi NeedofHelp,

Thank you for having the courage to reach out here. This is one of the main reasons this forum exists - to have a venue for people like you.

My main question to you, to start with, is to ask if you are a Christian? The reason why I ask is that it would bear upon how we might be able to help you out. Just because you are not a Christian does NOT mean we can't or don't want to help you, it just changes the approach we might ask you to take.

I am a Christian, and I have prayed a lot about this, and I know the Lord is working in her - I see it in the struggle she has. But if she left the church it would be leaving her friends and family. Although I have told her repeatedly my family is her family, and we have lots of other friends outside the church, she has been guilted into the church by her family. We just recently overcame a spell where she wouldn't talk to me - her mother forbade her too. Her mother frequently wanted me to come to the church gatherings (but I was unaware of this, my friend just recently told me) and my friend just would make up excuses to get me out of it, because she knew I would not like it. I have never personally been to a LC meeting, but I have done a lot, and I mean a lot of research. Her feeling like she doesn't belong isn't something to be ignored, but anytime I speak of her church she says I talk like I know everything and that I don't know what I'm talking about, so the conversation is usually avoided. But I feel that I am the one who will help her out of this situation. I think I may also be able to use one of her friends in the church. She only has one good friend, and I think her friend is unaware of how bad this church is. Her friend just came in looking for a christian group on campus, so she doesn't really know what she's gotten herself into. I feel that if maybe I can get her friend out, then I could get her out too. I really hate to see her sucked into this. I've talked with God about it a lot, and I have a strong feeling that is what is to happen. He lead me to this forum, and he's lead me to many other sites. I just pray I can help her before it's too late.

[InChristAlone]

NeedofHelp, I believe the main thing you can do for your friend is your prayer. Pray always for your friend, don’t rely on your strength, wisdom, and understanding, but let the Lord deal with the situation. Your friend needs God's grace more than anything that you can give her. Therefore, never stop praying.

In my opinion, the LC is a cult and its members are cult victims. Usually, cult members refuse to listen to any independent sources of information that criticize the cult and its teaching. The information is considered invalid because it comes from an outsider. And you are an outsider, while the LC members are “the chosen ones”. The LC members believe that Christianity is fallen and it’s only them who know “the high-peak truth”. That doesn’t mean that you can’t do anything or you have to join the cult to help your friend. I just want to say that it can be hard for you to persuade your friend to leave the LC. She doesn't trust your opinion because you are not an authority for her in this matter. You may tell her the truth about WL and his son, but she won’t believe the facts. You may tell her that the LC substitutes the word of God (the Bible) for the word of man (WL and his books), but it will be a miracle if she notices the substitution.

You can try to change your approach. Don’t tell your friend everything you know about the LC. Do the opposite. Start asking questions. Don’t be pushy. Just ask a question from time to time: How often do you read the Bible? Why do you read the Morning Revival and Crystallization Study, not the Bible? What was the last message about? How does this message relate to Christ’s message? Can this “high-peak truth” be higher than Christ’s words: 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself'? Can “the high-peak truth” help us enter the kingdom of God if we don’t love our neighbors (who are everyone around us and not saints only)? What makes you think that the LRC is the only genuine Christian church? Why do you rely on one man’s opinion about the Bible? What makes this man to be an authority? Could he make mistakes? If he could make small mistakes, could he make crucial mistakes as well? What made WL change his opinion and vision from time to time? If he is infallible, doesn't he remind you a pope? Can I share with you another interpretation of the verse? Why do saints leave the church? Are all these saints ambitious, proud, and arrogant? If she knows the truth about the hidden history of the LC, ask her if a bad tree can bear good fruit? Can we be saved, eating fruit of a bad tree? What did Jesus say about false teachers? What are their fruits? (Matthew 7:15-20) What are their character qualities? Greed, pride, and rebellion? (Jude 1:11) What kind of man was WL in his private and church life? What did he say about Christianity and other Christian churches? What are characteristics of denominations? Can the LC be called denominational church of Witness Lee? Are Christ's message and WL's message the same? What about "the high-peak truth?" Does WL go further than traditional Christian churches? What is this upgrade for? If the gospel of Christ and His words remain the same, then why does the Bible need an upgrade and update (or recovery)? Where does Jesus mention WL's "high-peak truth"? How many Bible verses support "the high-peak truth" in the Morning Revival? Why does this "high-peak truth" take priority over Jesus's words? Does this "high-peak truth" help you to love God and your neighbor more? Where is Christ in the high-peak truth of Witness Lee? Can you say that you can see Christ in WL's books more than you see Him in the Gospels? If not, then why do you start your day with the word of man (Morning Revival) and not with the word of God (the Bible)? What if WL's doctrines don't lead you to Christ but somewhere else? What about the Apostle Paul who says in Galatians, “Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ... If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!”

Pray to the Lord to grant you wisdom and ask right questions in the right time. Plant your seeds step by step. Help your friend to question her beliefs. But again... Don’t behave like an enemy to her. Be her friend. Always.

You may also try to email her some testimonies like this: http://jubileeresources.org/?page_id=102 (Thanks to Aron!) Ask your friend to explain some points; ask what she thinks about the testimonies. But don’t bomb her email account with testimonies day and night.

Read more about cults to find out similar characteristics between the LC and other cults. If your friend takes you to an LC meeting, pray to the Lord, before, during, and after the meeting. I don’t recommend to attend the LC meetings, but if you happen to be there, you must be warned and fully alert of the cultish system so that not to be deceived by the external state of joy, goodwill, and happiness.

http://www.leaderu.com/common/cults.html
http://www.the-gospel.org/stdy_hrmnt....php?pass=prnt
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q8.html

Last but not least, start changing yourself. I’m sure you are a good Christian, but there is always a way for perfection. “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect”. (Matthew 5:48) Read and study the Bible, fulfill commandments, pray more, developing your personal relationship with Christ. Glorify His name with your thoughts, words, and actions. Fight your passions. Don’t gossip, don’t discuss people, and don’t waste your time with idle talk. If you speak, speak with love, humility, and kindness. That’s difficult for everyone of us. I’m not an exception. But if we want to help our friends and relatives to leave the darkness, we must become a torch for them. To do that, we must let the light of Christ to shine through us. That doesn’t happen overnight. You will need to make efforts to live in communion with God. But if you live in strong connection with the Lord and bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit, then it will be easier for you to show the right way to your friend. You will not be a torch holder but a part of the light. If your friend sees Christ in you and your life more than in her church life, she may wonder and start questioning. And one day she may say to herself, “How come my friend has no idea about the LC high-peak truth but s/he is so full of Christ? Is there something wrong with my spiritual life? I had better spend more time with my friend. Maybe s/he can show me a better way to Christ”.

May the Lord’s love, kindness, and humility dwell in you. God bless.

I have tried with the harmless questions but she thinks I am interested in her church and she tries to protect me and doesn't want me to come. I have known her for 2 and a half years and she has never had me come to any of her church services or dinners, except once where it wasn't exactly a church dinner, I just experienced a prayer before the dinner which was odd to me how they did it. But anyways, I try to ask questions and she will just keep it very general or say I don't understand. A new tactic they use on our campus is during orientation she has to text everyone that comes by their church booth and say how excited they are for the upcoming year and they hope to see them again. I know she has this inner turmoil because she will tell me how she feels that she doesn't belong, but she will blame it on other things, such as she has class that she is missing, etc. One of the funniest things she says, I wish she could hear it replayed to her, about the church is this:

"I know I haven't liked it for the past 8 years, but I'm trying to like it now and it's just hard to get out of that mindset that I dislike it and into the mindset that I like it."

Last time she said this I just stared at her and said "Oh okay." because I don't want to push her buttons. She's been trying to like them for the past 4 months, and some days she likes it and some days she doesn't. She had told me before that she is questioning things, like is she happy or is this what she stands for, but I think that it gets quickly shut down because of her family. She will flip modes, too. Some days she's the original person that I know and love, and other days she will turn into this mean, abrupt, rude person to me, which are usually the days she defends the church. I know this is a long road and I pray a lot and see Him working in her, I just feel that I play a key role in getting her out. I'm pretty much her only shot.

But now that I've read through this feed, I've seen that most members get out on their own accord, such as they feel it in their heart that it's wrong. I think she's feeling that now but she is trying to bury that feeling to please mom and dad. She doesn't want to be the mess up of the family, and I wasn't aware that the church practically excommunicates members, so I did not realize that her family may disown her or not talk to her. Of course she would try to stick it out and deal with it, so as to not lose her family. I feel so bad for her and wish I could make it easier for her.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by NeedOfHelp

I have tried with the harmless questions but she thinks I am interested in her church and she tries to protect me and doesn't want me to come.

That is not just your friend. For many in the local churches this is normal response. Not that they would acknowledge, but if these brothers and sisters are honest there would be an admission the churchlife is not for everyone. There is a reluctance to invite your friends, your coworkers, your relatives, etc. Your friend may not want you to come, because the nature of the meeting is not generally receptive to all Christians. Just as in certain foods, there's an acquired taste. Same for the LC meetings, it takes an acquired taste. Because of that your friend may be fearful your reaction may affect your friendship. As your initial reaction may think of "sectarian" or "cult" and naturally most LC members become defensively reactive to such descriptions of the LC meetings.

I have a side question, does anyone know if LC threatens members if they leave? Like is there a punishment or some damnation that is told to members to try to scare them to stay in?

[OBW]

Originally Posted by NeedOfHelp

I have a side question, does anyone know if LC threatens members if they leave? Like is there a punishment or some damnation that is told to members to try to scare them to stay in?

Directly? No.

But they warn that they will be unable to "go on" with God. Oddly, it seems somewhat true for many because they get addicted to the kind of meetings that have been and can't find them elsewhere, so they just stop going anywhere and often die on the vine. It is a kind of sickness that is caused by the LRC and not by the other places.

And they also sometimes tell the kind of "someone once left and got run over by a truck" stories. Those have been told by all kinds of groups since before there were trucks (of course with a different culprit).

The worst thing they do is convince the people that their way is really the right way and everyone else's is wrong. And if they are failing at it, it is just a matter of our inability to do it right. Anything else is just wrong. Drill that in long enough and people are convinced that they are associated with the thing that is as close to "the way" as can be found and they will never leave. And if they do, they are convinced that nothing else will do instead because it is even "worse" than what they had.

But it is all smoke and mirrors. They tell you about how everyone else is in a garlic room as they cut clove after clove of garlic in the room until you don't recognize truth from fantasy. They are playing on the weakest part of man's mind, and that is often his vanity. A little like the rats that have two levers to pull; one gives them a mild, pleasurable electric shock while the other delivers run-of-the-mill food. They will pull the shock lever until they collapse, then get up and pull it some more. It strokes them.

I am reminded a little of that King of Rohan in the second book of JRR Tolkien's Lord of the Rings trilogy who drove his own family away because of a spell cast upon him. When Gandalf drove off the spell, there was a slow change in both his appearance and his thinking. It can be eliminated. But not while the thinking remains clouded.

Originally Posted by NeedOfHelp

I have a side question, does anyone know if LC threatens members if they leave? Like is there a punishment or some damnation that is told to members to try to scare them to stay in?

I would say no, but indirectly yes. I grew up in the local church and my grandpa is a leading individual in the church. I left years ago and definitely got looked down on. Maybe partially because I am happy to speak about it and am not quiet on my opinions of them. Of all the people that I knew there I only really ever see one person still and she was the only person I knew there that never judged me for being me. All I can say is that there are a lot of very fake people there. Christianity is about not judging others so there should be no reason to be fake. Eventually however, I stopped caring about what they would think of me and did what made me happy. I'm happily meeting somewhere else and have never felt happier. Definitely never experienced Christ in the local church like I did at my new church. So who cares what they say!!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by NeedofHelp

She has been feeling a lot of inner turmoil - a lot of trying to please mom and dad in the name of God while also feeling detached from the church. She's never felt that she belongs.

I'm worried she's going to try to change herself and get sucked into this for her life when in her heart she doesn't feel that way.

Hello NeedofHelp.

If your friend feels a belonging in the LC don't try to stop her from going back in. Something in her needs it; maybe it's the structure, maybe that they have all the ready made answers, that simplifies life for her, including with her family. How are you going to oppose that?

So let her dive all in.

If her heart is not in it it won't last. Let her get it out of her system.

And if she stays in the LC that's where she belongs ... even if it makes you sad.

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by NeedofHelp

Hello,

I am currently a college student in which I have a friend who's family has had very strong ties in the local church. She has currently been re-sucked into the church, just after about 10 years of disliking the church, and of having negative feelings for it all throughout her high school and most of her college career.

She has been feeling a lot of inner turmoil - a lot of trying to please mom and dad in the name of God while also feeling detached from the church. She's never felt that she belongs.

I'm worried she's going to try to change herself and get sucked into this for her life when in her heart she doesn't feel that way. I still have her questioning and stuff, but I literally have her by a thread. It's only a matter of time before she completely gets rid of me.

Any advice on getting someone out of LC?

Hi NeedofHelp.

I was a member of the LC for 20 years. You might benefit from reading my testimony and you might find a way to use it to help her. There is a free download of my story at:

www.thethreadofgold.com

The download is at the bottom of the Home page.

It appears she is struggling with how to get her need met for a good relationship with her family. She knows that in order to do that she has to embrace what they embrace as the truth about God. She is trying hard to do that. The only way she can is to stop using her own mind to think and decide about things. That is a tortuous place to be in.

Her real need is to find her own real, satisfying, purposeful relationship with Jesus. That is hard to do when your belief system tells you the only way to have that is by being in the LC. My book might help with that.

The Lord bless you for your love and care for your friend. I will pray you will be able to help her find the way to Him and to the real inner peace she is seeking.

Jane A.