Our Journey to Elden in Jan 1971

[Elden1971]

http://www.plymouthbrethren.org/article/5144

Ironside's comments on the Brethren need to be read by all in the LRC as well as those who have left..

[Elden1971]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

http://www.plymouthbrethren.org/article/5144
Ironside's comments on the Brethren need to be read by all in the LRC as well as those who have left..

H.A. Ironside
What the future holds in store for this movement if our blessed Lord tarry but a few years longer no man can predict. But one thing is absolutely certain: Brethren must either break from traditionalism and go on with God, as the Spirit leads through the opened Word and the sanctified judgment of men who have understanding of the times, or they will themselves be literally broken to pieces; in which case the unity they originally aimed at keeping may be nearer than we think. The late Captain R. Carey-Brenton, one of the most devoted missionaries ever in fellowship with the assemblies, who died in Mexico a few years ago, said to me once: “I have been so burdened about our divisions, and have been praying that God would bring our divided gatherings together. Lately I was watching a man break stones and I observed that it was only when the boulders were all broken to gravel that they became one. It may be that God will have to deal in the same way with us!” His words are impressive and well worthy of our consideration.

Perhaps the gravest failure we have made as a people has been in dissociating ourselves in thought from the great mass of our fellow-Christians. It is a common thing to make a distinction between “Christians in systems and believers gathered to or in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.” To consider this a special privilege is but spiritual pride of the most elusive kind. And each fellowship of Brethren is as truly a system as any other body of believers. If any one doubts it let him venture to act on his own initiative, or as he believes the Spirit leads, contrary to custom, and he will soon find out how sectarian an unsectarian company of Christians can be!

Nevertheless it seems to me any unprejudiced student of the movement who really knows his Bible must see that the primary object of the Brethren has been to get back as nearly to New Testament order and teaching as is possible in days of apostasy such as we live in. But the mistake has been in claiming the presence and authority of the Lord in a way other Christians cannot claim them.

[manna-man]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

H.A. Ironside
What the future holds in store for this movement if our blessed Lord tarry but a few years longer no man can predict. But one thing is absolutely certain: Brethren must either break from traditionalism and go on with God, as the Spirit leads through the opened Word and the sanctified judgment of men who have understanding of the times, or they will themselves be literally broken to pieces; in which case the unity they originally aimed at keeping may be nearer than we think. The late Captain R. Carey-Brenton, one of the most devoted missionaries ever in fellowship with the assemblies, who died in Mexico a few years ago, said to me once: “I have been so burdened about our divisions, and have been praying that God would bring our divided gatherings together. Lately I was watching a man break stones and I observed that it was only when the boulders were all broken to gravel that they became one. It may be that God will have to deal in the same way with us!” His words are impressive and well worthy of our consideration.

Perhaps the gravest failure we have made as a people has been in dissociating ourselves in thought from the great mass of our fellow-Christians. It is a common thing to make a distinction between “Christians in systems and believers gathered to or in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.” To consider this a special privilege is but spiritual pride of the most elusive kind. And each fellowship of Brethren is as truly a system as any other body of believers. If any one doubts it let him venture to act on his own initiative, or as he believes the Spirit leads, contrary to custom, and he will soon find out how sectarian an unsectarian company of Christians can be!

Nevertheless it seems to me any unprejudiced student of the movement who really knows his Bible must see that the primary object of the Brethren has been to get back as nearly to New Testament order and teaching as is possible in days of apostasy such as we live in. But the mistake has been in claiming the presence and authority of the Lord in a way other Christians cannot claim them.

What a mouthful and timely word. It appears I missed much. Thank you for your sharing Terry R.
I thoroughly enjoyed your spirit within this thread.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

Ironside's comments on the Brethren need to be read by all in the LRC as well as those who have left..

If they can't see what's right before their eyes Ironside's not gonna help, sorry to say.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

http://www.plymouthbrethren.org/article/5144

Ironside's comments on the Brethren need to be read by all in the LRC as well as those who have left..

For many of us in the LC's for years, Ironside's book Historical Sketch of the Brethren Movement provided the first chink in the armor of Witness Lee's distorted and misguided views of church history and his own Recovery movement.

The common LC misconceptions that the Plymouth Brethren were typified by the Church in Philadelphia in Revelation chapter 3, and that John Darby was the MOTA (Minister of the Age) predecessor to Watchman Nee in China seemed to vaporize in the light of day as one examines the true facts of history.

[TLFisher]

From the link Elden1971 provided, this is what I would hope would happen with younger generations in the Local Churches:

http://www.plymouthbrethren.org/article/5144

"Brethren beloved and longed-for, against whom there was no charge of wickedness or evil teaching, found themselves in opposite camps and as the years have gone on there has been very little change on the part of the older generation. It is noticeable, however, that the younger believers of all the different fellowships are becoming more and more restive about being whipped into party lines and all are yearning for a broader and more Scriptural fellowship— a return to the first principles of the Brethren which we have seen have been so largely given up."

[awareness]

The Brethren ... pooy fooy ...

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

The Brethren ... pooy fooy ...

Brother awareness, actually the Brethren had something very precious from The Lord, and a genuine move of the Spirit. Most of their early leaders were all extremely gifted and quite talented, with a healthy devotion to God Himself.

It was only when Darby and Co decided that they must rule the program, eliminating any potential "rivals," that all the negative elements crept in and eventually swallowed them up.

One major factor of their decline occurred when Darby influenced many that their factor of oneness was not the oneness of the Spirit, but the mandatory and universal judgment of evil by all Brethren. That left the door wide open for the most "influential" leader -- Darby -- to decide who and what was evil.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Brother awareness, actually the Brethren had something very precious from The Lord, and a genuine move of the Spirit. Most of their early leaders were all extremely gifted and quite talented, with a healthy devotion to God Himself.

It was only when Darby and Co decided that they must rule the program, eliminating any potential "rivals," that all the negative elements crept in and eventually swallowed them up.

One major factor of their decline occurred when Darby influenced many that their factor of oneness was not the oneness of the Spirit, but the mandatory and universal judgment of evil by all Brethren. That left the door wide open for the most "influential" leader -- Darby -- to decide who and what was evil.

I agree with you bro Ohio. But couldn't it be said also of the proto-Roman orthodox, and even the early Roman orthodox as well?

And then we have Lee's conception of the Recovery ; how it would begin to be a movement of God -- Luther -- and then fall back ; wonderful beginning and a fall back, over and over up to the Brethren, and finalizing in Witness Lee.

Then even Lee's movement has fallen back.

So why go back to the Brethren? I use to like Darby ... now he leaves a bad taste in my mouth ... pooy fooy.

[OBW]

I am more prone to see the early life of what is now the RCC as a movement of God than the LRC. And while it is true that some that were clearly in God's light seemed to become stuck somewhere along the way, I think that the very idea of God's movement in terms of revivals and their aftermath, or splinters that took a different way from the rest is an error in uderstanding of God's move.

This kind of thinking categorizes Christians as "in God's movement" or "not in God's movement" when I think that God is always moving and in all kinds of ways. No matter a particular person's preference for style and doctrine, God is moving — in virtually all of it. To think of one as part of God's move and another as not seems to be in serious error.

And that brings me to my comment about the LRC in the beginning. As a group of Christians, the LRC is part of God's move. But the same is true of those in the RCC, the EO, the UMC, RCA, Lutherans, AOG, Baptists, and so on and so on.

And some probably have noted that for some time I have questioned whether it was ever anything from Nee and Lee that made the early days of the "church life" so apparently glorious, or it was simply the nature of the people who were collecting at that time. Something came to my memory a few days ago that I think captures this idea. In the early to mid 70s there was movement to set a lot of scripture to music. And most of it was Psalms, although there was some Isaiah, Jeremiah, Romans, and even a little from the gospels (and probably others). But the Psalms were prevalent. In Dallas, we set out to record several of the songs. Besides psalms that we got from elsewhere, there were 4 or so talented ones in the Metroplex that wrote new songs, including my brother. We recorded a lot of them. I played my 12-string in most of it, and possibly bass in a little.

Then a little bit later, we discover what Lee thinks about all of that. He starts belittling the Psalms. He mocks, saying, "His mercy endureth, forever, and ever, and ever, and ever . . . ." and we stopped singing them. And some of the joy went away. We may have thought that he was theologically right to say it. But it changed us.

It changed us from what we were into something else. From the people that were seeking Christ to people seeking the approval of the one who was working up the courage to ask to be our MOTA. Lee didn't provide the glory days. He just put off stopping them long enough for us to get hooked to a little of his garbage so he could cast them aside and give us more garbage, now at a cost — training "donations" and standing book orders.

And the BBs have discovered that the spigot did not turn off when Lee died. But the "glory" and joy that once was never had anything substantial to do with Lee or Nee. It was all Christ and us. And we let it be taken away.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by awareness

So why go back to the Brethren? I use to like Darby ... now he leaves a bad taste in my mouth ... pooy fooy.

Brethren of Darby's time was for alll intent and purpose, the 19th century version of the Local Churches we loved. If you don't learn from history, you're doomed to repeat it. That's what the local churches did. Witness Lee didn't learn from John Darby and made the same mistake Darby did in becoming exclusive. Just as with the Brethren, the Local churches has experienced division after division. That's the fruit of "the ministry".