Our Journey to Elden in Jan 1971

[Elden1971]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Brother Terry, this is the first time I have ever read this, but it has been the experience of others saints that -- the Lord led us to the Recovery, and the Lord led us out. Others have remained there in the quandary -- "if the Lord led me here, then the Lord must want me to stay forever."

For those who begin to "follow a man, uplift a man, and be one with that man and his ministry," nearly every one reaches the point where he must close his eyes to sins and failures, hide his face from others who are being persecuted for righteousness sake, be complicit to numerous coverups of unrighteousness, take part in expelling those who speak the truth, and thus have his conscience seared with a branding iron.

No man is the sole depository of God's truth .

Christ is the answer to every question and the solution to every problem.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

No man is the sole depository of God's truth .

Christ is the answer to every question and the solution to every problem.

Amen and amen!

[Elden1971]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Amen and amen!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witness_Lee
Oral history of the local church by james barber is hyperlinked at the bottom. I was stunned and saddened as I listened to James, but it shows clearly the multiple misrepresentions made by Bro. Lee that have now been exposed.

[Elden1971]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witness_Lee
Oral history of the local church by james barber is hyperlinked at the bottom. I was stunned and saddened as I listened to James, but it shows clearly the multiple misrepresentions made by Bro. Lee that have now been exposed.

I would discuss this with anyone by phone or skype as it would be an exceedingly long post.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witness_Lee
Oral history of the local church by james barber is hyperlinked at the bottom. I was stunned and saddened as I listened to James, but it shows clearly the multiple misrepresentions made by Bro. Lee that have now been exposed.

I never knew James and I had nver heard him speak, but I incline to think had brother James lived he would not had taken the direction of the new way and would have become persona non grata much as John Ingalls and Bill Mallon had become. I could be wrong, but that's my thought.

[OBW]

It would be nice to think that. But from the rather harsh testimonies that were given by the remainder of his family several years ago, there is also evidence that he took an aweful lot to remain where he was. He might just have had what it took to become one of the BBs.

We will never know.

[Elden1971]

Originally Posted by Terry

I never knew James and I had nver heard him speak, but I incline to think had brother James lived he would not had taken the direction of the new way and would have become persona non grata much as John Ingalls and Bill Mallon had become. I could be wrong, but that's my thought.

Unfortunately Terry the tape clearly shows just the opposite. The blind obedience to do whatever Lee said is very evident. Listening to the Texas history was most enlightening and gives real insight into Benson Phillips, Ray Graver, et al

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

Unfortunately Terry the tape clearly shows just the opposite. The blind obedience to do whatever Lee said is very evident. Listening to the Texas history was most enlightening and gives real insight into Benson Phillips, Ray Graver, et al

I try to put events into historical perspectives. Brother James passed on before the new way was into full gear. He didn't have the living opportunity to "change" as John changed or as Bill changed. Before the New Way couldn't you say each of these brothers were obedient to the various flows? There had not been much cause to question Witness Lee.
I have considered what caused James to move from LA to OKC was Phillip Lee related.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witness_Lee
Oral history of the local church by james barber is hyperlinked at the bottom. I was stunned and saddened as I listened to James, but it shows clearly the multiple misrepresentions made by Bro. Lee that have now been exposed.

We used to love listening to James Barber tapes. He really was a gifted and passionate teacher, so there is a certain amount of nostalgia hearing him again.

But his whole message is a 2nd hand regurgitation of Witness Lee's distorted and self-serving interpretation of church history. After a few minutes, it was just more than I could bear.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

We used to love listening to James Barber tapes. . . . After a few minutes, it was just more than I could bear.

Me too. But then I never took to Barber. Reminded me of Southern Baptist preachers I grew up with. And that comb over.

[Elden1971]

Originally Posted by Ohio

We used to love listening to James Barber tapes. He really was a gifted and passionate teacher, so there is a certain amount of nostalgia hearing him again.

But his whole message is a 2nd hand regurgitation of Witness Lee's distorted and self-serving interpretation of church history. After a few minutes, it was just more than I could bear.

I understand your wounds are still healing whereas we have been removed over 35 years and still the first half was difficult to listen to and filled with factual errors. It was the Texas history at Wayland Baptist that helped clarify for me many issues. Hope covered quite a bit in his history but James filled in some of the blanks.

[Elden1971]

Did any of you experience "burnings" in your LC in the 70's? Elden had several where everyone burned TV's, stereos, books, magazines, clothes, photos.
Then Brother Lee encouraged everyone to drop out of college then a few years later just the opposite,,,get a BA MA PHD.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

Did any of you experience "burnings" in your LC in the 70's? Elden had several where everyone burned TV's, stereos, books, magazines, clothes, photos.

Cleveland had a burning of sorts when I first started meeting with them. It seemed to lack the intensity of the other burnings I have read about.

A lot of times Cleveland would half-heartedly follow the many movements coming out of Anaheim, just so Titus Chu could say "yeah we did that" and avoid the criticisms of ministry zealots in Anaheim and around the country.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

Did any of you experience "burnings" in your LC in the 70's? Elden had several where everyone burned TV's, stereos, books, magazines, clothes, photos.
Then Brother Lee encouraged everyone to drop out of college then a few years later just the opposite,,,get a BA MA PHD.

None that I recall in LA, Phoenix, or Alburquerque. My family did experience a burning when our home burned down in 1982.
Speaking of BA, MA, and PHD, I seem to recall one of Brother Lee's grandsons going to medical school or something like that. Now I wonder where did the resources come from to pay for such an extensive education?

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

Did any of you experience "burnings" in your LC in the 70's? Elden had several where everyone burned TV's, stereos, books, magazines, clothes, photos.
Then Brother Lee encouraged everyone to drop out of college then a few years later just the opposite,,,get a BA MA PHD.

Attended at least one in Dallas. Know a sister who was in Dallas for a while who spoke on another forum of burning pictures of her children and regretting it long before she left the LRC (which was a long time ago now).

I don't recall what, if anything I contributed to the flames. I must admit that there was always a level of the supercharged atmosphere (when it arose) that was a little off-setting to me. Probably just my nature as a semi hermit that would rather be sane and quiet than boisterous and showy. In any case, this seemed to be one of those things to me. I wouldn't say it was bad. But it did not look like what was mentioned in Acts. And since I had no witchcraft or books on the occult, I was mostly off the hook. I was not as keen on the "evil world" (although at some level I could probably stand to be a little more that way now).

[InChristAlone]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

Did any of you experience "burnings" in your LC in the 70's? Elden had several where everyone burned TV's, stereos, books, magazines, clothes, photos.
Then Brother Lee encouraged everyone to drop out of college then a few years later just the opposite,,,get a BA MA PHD.

I wonder if Brother Lee burnt his and his sons' books, TV's, stereos, clothes, and photos.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

No man is the sole depository of God's truth.

Jesus Christ alone posesses the 'ministry of the age'; both this age and every age which is to come. Jesus alone may be characterized as the "faithful Witness" (Rev 1:5); no one else should be taken at face value but should be tested. Anyone who presumes a pride of place within this ministry, on this side of the Bema (i.e. 'Judgment seat': see e.g. 2 Cor 5:10 & Rom 4:10) is arguably self-deceived. Jesus counseled to take the lowest place.

I've been in meetings where there was 'no one in charge', and we all found a happy spontaneous order. Everyone has gifts and when they are exercised a marvelous testimony emerges. One has a gift, one has a teaching, one has an encouragement, one has a discernment, one has a prophecy. Many 'local church' meetings were like this. It was attractive and pleasant, and probably because it was pleasing to the Father.

But I have been in many meetings where we waited for the delegated 'leader' to take his place at the head of the meeting and the difference was striking.

I am not for abolishing all titles and positions; rather that to the extent that we require them, in the name of 'good order in the church', or in WN's parlance 'the normal christian church life', we risk pushing aside the Spirit sent by Jesus and suffer commensurate loss.

Mr. Nee may have sincerely believed that his organizational arrangement would better serve the Lord to evangelize China, and beyond. But I argue his scheme was as Peter's: "Lord, it is good for us to be here. Let's build three booths: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah. I will set up a gate and I and James and John will only allow those whom we deem proper to come in and fellowship. On our terms."

God has His terms. His term is His Son, Jesus. We also have our terms, in which we continually attempt an overlay. To the extent we stubbornly continue to do this, we suffer commensurate loss. Jesus left us with His Spirit of grace. To look to any earthly leader as the mediatory channel of said grace is to arguably miss the point.

Originally Posted by Elden1971

Christ is the answer to every question and the solution to every problem.

There is one High Priest standing before the throne, pleading His blood for us all. The rest of us, and I stress all of us, are each the proverbial "Small Potato" of Mr. Lee's rhetoric. Yet each one is gifted in some way, to benefit the body of assembled believers. Lee's error was to attempt to interpose his ministry between the High Priest and the believers. To me it's no wonder that consequently we repeatedly heard about "the new way" or "the vital groups" or some other scheme to attract our attention.

In all these "teachings" and "flows" and "moves of the Lord" and "feelings of the Body" we were distracted and separated from our Head. We lost sight of the High Priest as we accepted some lesser alternative. And again we suffered commensurately.

To show how corrupted their thinking had become, the Blendeds declared, upon WL's passing, that the age of the Great Leader was over and the age of Small Potatos had begun. No man was worthy to step into the shoes of the Apostle and only curators of the Great one's legacy could function, as his flag-wavers.

To which I would reply that the age of the Great Men began with Jesus Christ, and it ends with the same. No other man (or woman) can take this place. In the church there is only one Great Man. There is only one High Priest. The rest of us are as dust, sinful and redeemed by God's grace.

To which the natural question, raised repeatedly in the gospels and continually ever since, is, Who gets to sit at the right hand? Who is on the left? And who sits next to the Right Hand man, and so on? Notice Jesus never answered that directly. He will do so at the Judgment seat, and not before. Paul's dictum of "some as apostles, prophets, and teachers" did not overturn this, and will not. Paul's teachings must be subordinate to Jesus' teachings, not vice versa. Paul would never suborn the Master. He would never approve of using his epistles to do so. Why be so fooled, into trying?