Our Journey to Elden in Jan 1971

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

Later we would move with our six children to Oklahoma City to start the church life in our home and where I would later be excommunicated for speaking the truth in love. Praise the Lord for His Mercy and Grace. Nothing can separate us from the Love of God in Christ Jesus. This Thursday Nancy and I will celebrate our 49th anniversary. We are blessed with 17 grandchildren. We look forward to hearing from old friends and making new ones. We have prayed for the leaders of the LC and will continue to do so. We are grateful that the Lord led us to LA and we are grateful that we got out when we did. There is so much we can share of the unsearchable riches of Christ. Christ is our Life and we gather around Him in our home. He chose us before the foundation of the earth and we are complete IN HIM!

Terry and Nancy Risenhoover

Though my perception is based on whether or not you were politically correct, may I ask the basis for your excommunication?
Amen to the Father's leading for you and Nancy.

[Elden1971]

Originally Posted by Terry

Though my perception is based on whether or not you were politically correct, may I ask the basis for your excommunication?
Amen to the Father's leading for you and Nancy.

Thanks for asking about my "excommunication". In an attempt to help a young brother that I brought to the church in OKC who was under condemnation for his personal failings I told him all have sinned and come short of the glory of the Lord and even our dear Bro. Lee had done illegal acts and the Lord had forgiven him and was still using him. This helped the brother and we prayed and he left. The next day he apparently shared his testimony with another brother who immediately reported to James Barber that I had said Bro. Lee had done illegal acts. James called an emergency meeting of the elders and called me to come meet with them. Upon arrival James informed me that what I said was a lie and unless I repented I would be excommunicated. Of course what I had said was the truth regarding Bro. Lee committing illegal acts was absolutely true and I had been intimately involved in helping Francis Ball prepare his legal defense had he been caught (in retrospect what I said about Lee repenting may have been wrong) but suffice it to say I was in a real quandary. If I am to stay in Fellowship then I must say what I said was a lie when in fact it was the truth. I did not have the peace to uncover the sins of Bro. Lee even though I knew he was guilty so I reflected inwardly and said Lord I choose You and the Spirit of Glory fell upon me. I said nothing in my defense and James pronounced my excommunication and the other elders nodded in agreement(two of whom I had brought to the church the other two appointed by Benson. Only James had spoken and thus I was excommunicated from the church in OKC that had been birthed in my heart and started in my home

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

Thanks for asking about my "excommunication". In an attempt to help a young brother that I brought to the church in OKC who was under condemnation for his personal failings I told him all have sinned and come short of the glory of the Lord and even our dear Bro. Lee had done illegal acts and the Lord had forgiven him and was still using him. This helped the brother and we prayed and he left.

The next day he apparently shared his testimony with another brother who immediately reported to James Barber that I had said Bro. Lee had done illegal acts. James called an emergency meeting of the elders and called me to come meet with them. Upon arrival James informed me that what I said was a lie and unless I repented I would be excommunicated. Of course what I had said was the truth regarding Bro. Lee committing illegal acts was absolutely true and I had been intimately involved in helping Francis Ball prepare his legal defense had he been caught (in retrospect what I said about Lee repenting may have been wrong) but suffice it to say I was in a real quandary.

If I am to stay in Fellowship then I must say what I said was a lie when in fact it was the truth. I did not have the peace to uncover the sins of Bro. Lee even though I knew he was guilty so I reflected inwardly and said Lord I choose You and the Spirit of Glory fell upon me. I said nothing in my defense and James pronounced my excommunication and the other elders nodded in agreement (two of whom I had brought to the church the other two appointed by Benson.) Only James had spoken and thus I was excommunicated from the church in OKC that had been birthed in my heart and started in my home.

Brother Terry, this is the first time I have ever read this, but it has been the experience of others saints that -- the Lord led us to the Recovery, and the Lord led us out. Others have remained there in the quandary -- "if the Lord led me here, then the Lord must want me to stay forever."

For those who begin to "follow a man, uplift a man, and be one with that man and his ministry," nearly every one reaches the point where he must close his eyes to sins and failures, hide his face from others who are being persecuted for righteousness sake, be complicit to numerous coverups of unrighteousness, take part in expelling those who speak the truth, and thus have his conscience seared with a branding iron.

[Elden1971]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Brother Terry, this is the first time I have ever read this, but it has been the experience of others saints that -- the Lord led us to the Recovery, and the Lord led us out. Others have remained there in the quandary -- "if the Lord led me here, then the Lord must want me to stay forever."

For those who begin to "follow a man, uplift a man, and be one with that man and his ministry," nearly every one reaches the point where he must close his eyes to sins and failures, hide his face from others who are being persecuted for righteousness sake, be complicit to numerous coverups of unrighteousness, take part in expelling those who speak the truth, and thus have his conscience seared with a branding iron.

No man is the sole depository of God's truth .

Christ is the answer to every question and the solution to every problem.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

No man is the sole depository of God's truth .

Christ is the answer to every question and the solution to every problem.

Amen and amen!

[Elden1971]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Amen and amen!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witness_Lee
Oral history of the local church by james barber is hyperlinked at the bottom. I was stunned and saddened as I listened to James, but it shows clearly the multiple misrepresentions made by Bro. Lee that have now been exposed.

[Elden1971]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witness_Lee
Oral history of the local church by james barber is hyperlinked at the bottom. I was stunned and saddened as I listened to James, but it shows clearly the multiple misrepresentions made by Bro. Lee that have now been exposed.

I would discuss this with anyone by phone or skype as it would be an exceedingly long post.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witness_Lee
Oral history of the local church by james barber is hyperlinked at the bottom. I was stunned and saddened as I listened to James, but it shows clearly the multiple misrepresentions made by Bro. Lee that have now been exposed.

I never knew James and I had nver heard him speak, but I incline to think had brother James lived he would not had taken the direction of the new way and would have become persona non grata much as John Ingalls and Bill Mallon had become. I could be wrong, but that's my thought.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witness_Lee
Oral history of the local church by james barber is hyperlinked at the bottom. I was stunned and saddened as I listened to James, but it shows clearly the multiple misrepresentions made by Bro. Lee that have now been exposed.

We used to love listening to James Barber tapes. He really was a gifted and passionate teacher, so there is a certain amount of nostalgia hearing him again.

But his whole message is a 2nd hand regurgitation of Witness Lee's distorted and self-serving interpretation of church history. After a few minutes, it was just more than I could bear.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

No man is the sole depository of God's truth.

Jesus Christ alone posesses the 'ministry of the age'; both this age and every age which is to come. Jesus alone may be characterized as the "faithful Witness" (Rev 1:5); no one else should be taken at face value but should be tested. Anyone who presumes a pride of place within this ministry, on this side of the Bema (i.e. 'Judgment seat': see e.g. 2 Cor 5:10 & Rom 4:10) is arguably self-deceived. Jesus counseled to take the lowest place.

I've been in meetings where there was 'no one in charge', and we all found a happy spontaneous order. Everyone has gifts and when they are exercised a marvelous testimony emerges. One has a gift, one has a teaching, one has an encouragement, one has a discernment, one has a prophecy. Many 'local church' meetings were like this. It was attractive and pleasant, and probably because it was pleasing to the Father.

But I have been in many meetings where we waited for the delegated 'leader' to take his place at the head of the meeting and the difference was striking.

I am not for abolishing all titles and positions; rather that to the extent that we require them, in the name of 'good order in the church', or in WN's parlance 'the normal christian church life', we risk pushing aside the Spirit sent by Jesus and suffer commensurate loss.

Mr. Nee may have sincerely believed that his organizational arrangement would better serve the Lord to evangelize China, and beyond. But I argue his scheme was as Peter's: "Lord, it is good for us to be here. Let's build three booths: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah. I will set up a gate and I and James and John will only allow those whom we deem proper to come in and fellowship. On our terms."

God has His terms. His term is His Son, Jesus. We also have our terms, in which we continually attempt an overlay. To the extent we stubbornly continue to do this, we suffer commensurate loss. Jesus left us with His Spirit of grace. To look to any earthly leader as the mediatory channel of said grace is to arguably miss the point.

Originally Posted by Elden1971

Christ is the answer to every question and the solution to every problem.

There is one High Priest standing before the throne, pleading His blood for us all. The rest of us, and I stress all of us, are each the proverbial "Small Potato" of Mr. Lee's rhetoric. Yet each one is gifted in some way, to benefit the body of assembled believers. Lee's error was to attempt to interpose his ministry between the High Priest and the believers. To me it's no wonder that consequently we repeatedly heard about "the new way" or "the vital groups" or some other scheme to attract our attention.

In all these "teachings" and "flows" and "moves of the Lord" and "feelings of the Body" we were distracted and separated from our Head. We lost sight of the High Priest as we accepted some lesser alternative. And again we suffered commensurately.

To show how corrupted their thinking had become, the Blendeds declared, upon WL's passing, that the age of the Great Leader was over and the age of Small Potatos had begun. No man was worthy to step into the shoes of the Apostle and only curators of the Great one's legacy could function, as his flag-wavers.

To which I would reply that the age of the Great Men began with Jesus Christ, and it ends with the same. No other man (or woman) can take this place. In the church there is only one Great Man. There is only one High Priest. The rest of us are as dust, sinful and redeemed by God's grace.

To which the natural question, raised repeatedly in the gospels and continually ever since, is, Who gets to sit at the right hand? Who is on the left? And who sits next to the Right Hand man, and so on? Notice Jesus never answered that directly. He will do so at the Judgment seat, and not before. Paul's dictum of "some as apostles, prophets, and teachers" did not overturn this, and will not. Paul's teachings must be subordinate to Jesus' teachings, not vice versa. Paul would never suborn the Master. He would never approve of using his epistles to do so. Why be so fooled, into trying?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Brother Terry, this is the first time I have ever read this, but it has been the experience of others saints that -- the Lord led us to the Recovery, and the Lord led us out. Others have remained there in the quandary -- "if the Lord led me here, then the Lord must want me to stay forever."

For those who begin to "follow a man, uplift a man, and be one with that man and his ministry," nearly every one reaches the point where he must close his eyes to sins and failures, hide his face from others who are being persecuted for righteousness sake, be complicit to numerous coverups of unrighteousness, take part in expelling those who speak the truth, and thus have his conscience seared with a branding iron.

Ohio, how I have been told as all in the context of vision. having the vision and being faithful to the vision. True, there may be be some acknowlegdment mistakes were made, but it's as brothers have uttered many times; "it's not about right or wrong. It's about life".

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Elden1971

Thanks for asking about my "excommunication". In an attempt to help a young brother that I brought to the church in OKC who was under condemnation for his personal failings I told him all have sinned and come short of the glory of the Lord and even our dear Bro. Lee had done illegal acts and the Lord had forgiven him and was still using him. This helped the brother and we prayed and he left. The next day he apparently shared his testimony with another brother who immediately reported to James Barber that I had said Bro. Lee had done illegal acts. James called an emergency meeting of the elders and called me to come meet with them. Upon arrival James informed me that what I said was a lie and unless I repented I would be excommunicated. Of course what I had said was the truth regarding Bro. Lee committing illegal acts was absolutely true and I had been intimately involved in helping Francis Ball prepare his legal defense had he been caught (in retrospect what I said about Lee repenting may have been wrong) but suffice it to say I was in a real quandary. If I am to stay in Fellowship then I must say what I said was a lie when in fact it was the truth. I did not have the peace to uncover the sins of Bro. Lee even though I knew he was guilty so I reflected inwardly and said Lord I choose You and the Spirit of Glory fell upon me. I said nothing in my defense and James pronounced my excommunication and the other elders nodded in agreement(two of whom I had brought to the church the other two appointed by Benson. Only James had spoken and thus I was excommunicated from the church in OKC that had been birthed in my heart and started in my home

Thank you Terry for your willigness to share.