Outer darkness: A thousand years? or for eternity?

[ABrotherinFaith]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Shall I take from this that you are convinced there will be only two classes of people after death -- those in heaven, and those in hell?

Shall I also take from this that Jesus tells us many nice stories, but they really don't mean anything, except for the final admonition to "watch."

If the answer to both questions is a simple "yes," then at least be brave enough to admit it. (your response to me) But, one more question, how can an unbeliever be a "virgin," and how can the unbelievers be resurrected at His coming back, and why would an unbeliever go forth to meet the bridegroom, and how can the Lord say He never knew them, when He knows everything and even formed us in the womb, and if they are unbelievers, why didn't the Lord exhort them to repent and believe the gospel.

Yes, I think there are believers and unbelievers. Those who accept Christ as their savior and are obedient/endure to the end and those who don't.
As far as bravery here, I don't think it's a factor. As I explained, I don't know. I can't know. And neither can you. I have ALREADY told you that I am satisfied with Christ's explanation. I don't reduce His words to a children's story. Christ spoke to His disciples in terms they understood. Then He explained the meaning of those things in that context. It's simple, not simplistic. You don't know for sure that the oil is the spirit. You don't know the sleep is death. You don't know that we can buy oil AFTER we die..but you have the courage to say you do.

Why didn't He say to repent? I don't know. Is it possible that they would now have to endure being shut out of the feast. How do you think the virgins would feel being outside? Don't you think they would repent. Perhaps they will have to wait until the feast is over and the marriage celebration is complete. You still haven't addressed the looming question. Where's you courage? It's an ominous one and it's been asked before (an hour or so ago in fact)....Where do you get the idea from scripture that we will be able to buy oil/Holy spirit AFTER WE DIE?

Do you think that there are those who go to a church, who believe there was a guy named Jesus,who believe that God created things but their belief is akin to knowledge. They have never really sought the Lord. They enjoyed the company of the church, the hymns, the idea that heaven was waiting...these are the ones, I think, to whom the Lord will say, "I never knew you." But as YOU say and keep saying, the Lord can't really mean it because He knows everyone. So when He says "I know My sheep, " he's not really saying anything special because, well, he knows everyone. You've reduced Jesus to someone who just plays around with words, saying things He can't really mean. What do you think He means when he says "I don't know you?" or "I haven't known you?"

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

Yes, I think there are believers and unbelievers. Those who accept Christ as their savior and are obedient/endure to the end and those who don't.

That sounds like more than two here ....
1. believers
2. believers who accept Christ
3. believers who do not accept Christ
4. believers who accept Christ and are obedient
5. believers who accept Christ and endure to the end
6. unbelievers

All these situations (and more) will exist.

Perhaps you would like to give this more thought.

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

As far as bravery here, I don't think it's a factor. As I explained, I don't know. I can't know. And neither can you. I have ALREADY told you that I am satisfied with Christ's explanation. I don't reduce His words to a children's story. Christ spoke to His disciples in terms they understood. Then He explained the meaning of those things in that context. It's simple, not simplistic. You don't know for sure that the oil is the spirit. You don't know the sleep is death. You don't know that we can buy oil AFTER we die..but you have the courage to say you do.

In the parable of the sower (Mt 13.1-23) and the parable of the tares, (Mt 13.24-30, 36-43) the Lord went into great length to explain to the disciples what all the details of these parables meant. But in this parable of the virgins, the Lord did not explain in detail what the parable meant. Do you expect me to believe that the Lord spent much time thinking up good parables in His early ministry, filled with meaningful details, but as His death approached, He ran out of time thinking them through? If that was the case, He should have just said, "don't forget to watch." That would be more "simple."

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

Why didn't He say to repent? I don't know. Is it possible that they would now have to endure being shut out of the feast. How do you think the virgins would feel being outside? Don't you think they would repent. Perhaps they will have to wait until the feast is over and the marriage celebration is complete. You still haven't addressed the looming question. Where's you courage? It's an ominous one and it's been asked before (an hour or so ago in fact)....Where do you get the idea from scripture that we will be able to buy oil/Holy spirit AFTER WE DIE?

If the only suffering the foolish virgins have to endure is missing dinner, then how bad can that be? But, didn't you say thy are going to hell?

So, am I the only one who has to answer questions? The Lord Himself said the foolish ones have to "buy oil." Can't you accept that? I told you where I got the idea -- it's in the parable -- but you don't think that parable has any meaning to it, so you happen to miss that detail. Obviously the "oil" means something here. I doubt if Pep Boys has this kind of "oil" on their shelves. Didn't you ever realize that the Lord speaks metaphorically at times?

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

Do you think that there are those who go to a church, who believe there was a guy named Jesus, who believe that God created things but their belief is akin to knowledge. They have never really sought the Lord. They enjoyed the company of the church, the hymns, the idea that heaven was waiting...these are the ones, I think, to whom the Lord will say, "I never knew you." But as YOU say and keep saying, the Lord can't really mean it because He knows everyone. So when He says "I know My sheep, " he's not really saying anything special because, well, he knows everyone. You've reduced Jesus to someone who just plays around with words, saying things He can't really mean.

When the Bible exhorts us to believe, it is to "believe into." It is not a mere credence, or an acknowledgement of a fact, like the demons who 'believe." Real faith regenerates us with a living hope. We are born again.

The bible calls those who fake the program as unbelievers. They are tares, and not real wheat.

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

What do you think He means when he says "I don't know you?" or "I haven't known you?"

It means He does not approve of their works, they have not done the will of the Father. The opposite is for Him to say "well done."

Look at the parable of the sower. Consider the seed sown on rocky places. (Mt 13.5-6, 20-21) This one heard the word with joy, the seed sprouted into a new life, but is short-lived, and persecution stumbles this one. Consider the seed sown in the thorns. (Mt 13.7, 22) This one hears the word, and the plant sprouts and grows more, but the thorns of anxiety and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word so that it becomes unfruitful.

[ABrotherinFaith]

Originally Posted by Ohio

That sounds like more than two here ....
1. believers
2. believers who accept Christ
3. believers who do not accept Christ
4. believers who accept Christ and are obedient
5. believers who accept Christ and endure to the end
6. unbelievers

All these situations (and more) will exist.

Perhaps you would like to give this more thought.

Either your silly and like to pretend you can't read/understand well or you're intentionally misunderstanding what I am saying so you can have you way...either way, let me explain (again and again). I think (I am not certain beyond a doubt--I'm not that brave) that there are two. 1. Believers. These are people who accept Christ and obey/endure to the end. 2. Non believers. These are people that do not accept Christ as their Lord and Savior--as evidenced by either their not enduring/obeying to the end or by simply not believing at all.

I suspect you got this when you read what I wrote but wanted to sound clever in your own way.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

Either your silly and like to pretend you can't read/understand well or you're intentionally misunderstanding what I am saying so you can have you way...either way, let me explain (again and again). I think (I am not certain beyond a doubt--I'm not that brave) that there are two. 1. Believers. These are people who accept Christ and obey/endure to the end. 2. Non believers. These are people that do not accept Christ as their Lord and Savior--as evidenced by either their not enduring/obeying to the end or by simply not believing at all.

I suspect you got this when you read what I wrote but wanted to sound clever in your own way.

I am NOT trying to sound clever.

You have defined a believer as one who accepts Christ, obeys Him to the end, and endures to the end.

This is incredibly naive and idealistic to define every believer this way.

But sorry, I'm wasting your time.

Have a nice day!

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I am NOT trying to sound clever.

You have defined a believer as one who accepts Christ, obeys Him to the end, and endures to the end.

This is incredibly naive and idealistic to define every believer this way.

But sorry, I'm wasting your time.

Have a nice day!

I don't see what's wrong with saying that, isn't he just restating verses like the ones below? The Greek word translated to believe is pisteou, which means to trust or commit oneself to something. Jesus seemed to make it clear that this commitment was expected to be a lifetime in his teachings which include the parable of the sower. This is consistent with passages in the OT as well such as Ezekiel 18 where God expects us to live in righteousness until the end.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Matthew 24:13
But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

[OBW]

BB,

I think that one problem that is going on in this discussion is the notion of how extreme one must be to believe and obey. I would not say that it is simple, like mental belief. But neither do I think that the kind of extreme that is getting implied here is what it means.

I note that Jesus went throughout his ministry preaching righteousness and sending the people home to live right.

Not to become one of the people who followed him everywhere he went.

That is one of the millstone burdens of both the Pharisees of old and the "serious" Christians of this age. They think that life must be overanalyzed. That we must beat ourselves up for every mistake. That we must spend an hour in the word and prayer each morning. That we must never fail or fall. That we must be burning in the meetings. And go to more meetings than anyone else we know.

Problem is that we all fall. And we do it at some level every day. While there is clearly a level of failure that will be recompensed on "the day" by something other than a crown with many stars in it.

In the mean time, there really is not sufficient evidence of what that recompense is to insist on any particular understanding of it.

And it is evident that we have multiple understandings about outer darkness. We can go on brow-beating each other with wet noodles and get nowhere because we simply do not know. The only thing we do know is to believe and obey. Take care of that and it will pan out in the end.

[ABrotherinFaith]

Originally Posted by Ohio

But, didn't you say thy are going to hell?

Don't take too long interpreting this answer: No.

I never said that.

(But I suspect you knew that)

I did say HELLo in my first post. Perhaps you interpreted the o as meaningless!

[bearbear]

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.

Children of God have no reason to fear God because they are born of him. Fear of God has to do with punishment. If there was possibility of punishment awaiting children of God at the end of our Christian race, then the Apostle John is lying in this verse by suggesting that we should not fear.

Suffering in outer darkness for 1000 years as God's children just doesn't jive with God's character because it's sadistic. I know my God and it's not like him to do this to his children. Nor does millennial exclusion fit anywhere in the bible. Instead it seems like a dangerous doctrine which can be used to keep members of church in line under an abusive ministry or leader, while at the same time preventing people from pressing into repentance so their hearts can become the good earth and they can become born again. Jesus said wisdom is justified by her fruit, and from the looks of it, this doctrine has produced nothing but bad fruit.

The lake of fire was prepared for the devil and his angels. This includes children of the devil, which also includes men who claim to be Christians, but show that they are children of the devil by their actions (works of the flesh which include unrepentant unforgiveness, sexual immorality, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness).

1 John 3:8
Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

Life is a gift and all of us have a chance to repent before the book of our life closes. There's no reason anyone of us has to go to outer darkness or hell for eternity. Hebrews 9:27 says judgment comes at the end of our Christian race. God is able to keep us from falling if we're willing to repent and in doing so, hold his hand and follow him.

Psalm 37:23-24
The Lord directs the steps of the godly.
He delights in every detail of their lives.
Though they stumble, they will never fall,
for the Lord holds them by the hand.