How to help people whose friends and relatives are active members of the LC

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

So what I'm hearing is, your solution is : get out of your mind and turn to your spirit ; make kids ; and go on with Christ and the church ; prayer will empower you ; pretending will sustain you.

Good luck with that.

Wow awareness, you get out of the wrong side of the bed this morning?

You just jumped all over the poor guy.

[InChristAlone]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Wow awareness, you get out of the wrong side of the bed this morning?

You just jumped all over the poor guy.

That's all right. I love awareness, and I am glad he can't read my thoughts.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

That's all right. I love awareness, and I am glad he can't read my thoughts.

Yeah he's a great guy.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Wow awareness, you get out of the wrong side of the bed this morning?

You just jumped all over the poor guy.

I know, I went off half cocked. Maxima mea culpa. But just this week sister Dancing shared how a bro committed suicide, and all the elders did to help was to tell him to turn to Christ.

And I felt that that's what our bro was being advised to do.

So I spelled it out in LC lingo ... except the pretense part ... on second thought ... there's prolly plenty of pretending going in the local church.

Sorry if I sounded mean. I can be an idiot sometimes.

[InChristAlone]

Originally Posted by awareness

I know, I went off half cocked. Maxima mea culpa. But just this week sister Dancing shared how a bro committed suicide, and all the elders did to help was to tell him to turn to Christ.

And I felt that that's what our bro was being advised to do.

So I spelled it out in LC lingo ... except the pretense part ... on second thought ... there's prolly plenty of pretending going in the local church.

Sorry if I sounded mean. I can be an idiot sometimes.

Brother, you sounded frank, not mean to me. I see your point.

I am really grateful to all brothers for their advice. It might seem vague but it's not. They told me about their experience. They shared their points of view. And they were wise enough not to tell me "Hey bro, we have a clear plan for ya. Do A first, then - B, C, and D, and then you will succeed." We are all different. Someone's perfect plan may not work out for me.

My goal is to open my wife's eyes, pull her out of the cult, and bring her to Christ. That's not an easy task because I must be there, too. But when there is a will, there is a way. I know it will take lots of inner and outer work. But if God’s will and mine are one, why should I give up? I am going to get a notepad, collect information, ask my wife lots of questions, and then draw conclusions. And of course, I will need to pray more. To pull off the plan, I have to become something else than I am now. To open the "door", I need to obtain the key first. Will I be able to get it, I do not know. The journey looks challenging, but the reward is worth the effort.

I want to share another message that I received from the brother. I have been touched, and I hope that people who are in my shoes will be inspired as well.

The Lord gave me three words for you. the first was from Luke 2.

13 Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying,

14 “Glory to God in the highest heaven,and on earth peace to those on whom his favor rests.”

Our job as Christians is to see, by faith, what those angels saw. To see the glory of God, to praise Him, and to announce the good news. Just ask God to show you His glory. He will show it to you. It will change your life forever. Suddenly everything will make sense. Even your wife being in the Local Church!

The second word is also from Luke, from chapter 4.

14 Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside. 15 He was teaching in their synagogues, and everyone praised him.

16 He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, 17 and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:

18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”[f]

20 Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him. 21 He began by saying to them, “Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing.”

That anointing, that power of the Spirit is fully yours today. Just focus on God. Make this focus your life. If you seek first this kingdom then God will take care of everything else. Beyond your relationship with God, your relationship with your wife is the second most important thing in your life. Just be "one" with her. She is the companion God gave you. God gave you the power to be the companion that she has always wanted. It is you. You are the husband God gave to her. Be that man. If you have respect for God (and I know that you do) you will be that man.

The third verse is from Acts 10. Peter is speaking to Cornelius.

36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37 You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

This power to do good and heal those around you is now yours and is in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. God has given you the right Spirit, and has put people all around you, including (importantly) your wife. Just be the man that God wants you to be. Believe me, God can deal with the Local Church, and what is going on there. God can do anything. Be at peace!

Thanks again to all the brothers.

[InChristAlone]

I have just received this email from another brother. I want to thank him and also share his wonderful message. I know, brothers, you may not need it. You have solved your problem. So I am doing it for people who may find themselves in my situation.

Always bring things to the Lord in prayer and in all things seek his will and he'll give you wisdom and put words into your mouth when you speak to your wife.

Proverbs 3:5-6
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
and do not lean on your own understanding.
6 In all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make straight your paths.

I gave you my experience as something to draw from, but my situation could be totally different God will lead you and your wife to the truth! His word says so.


John 16:13
When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.



God Bless!

[bearbear]

Today I experienced excruciating chronic shoulder pain preventing me from doing much so I went to the grocery store to pick up some Tylenol. On the way there I prayed that God would show me someone to share the gospel with since it had been a while. As I came out of the store, a homeless gentleman by the name of Tom asked me for help because the recycling center next to Nob Hill was closed prematurely. Long story short I got to help them out materially and minister to him and his friend Anthony by sharing the gospel and God's love for them. Tom was so touched that God cared enough about him to send someone to provide for their need that he cried. I felt so blessed that God answered my prayer so quickly and gave me the opportunity to sow into their lives because God loves the homeless.

However, after I left, I realized I had forgotten to pray for their healing to show them God's love via his power. It's something I've been reminding myself to do after watching so many of Tom Fischer's videos on youtube (see here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E62EgXvqfrc). But then as I walked home regretting that I didn't push further towards healing in ministry, I noticed my own shoulder pain was COMPLETELY GONE. Praise God! It's the first time I experienced healing like this and I didn't ask for it then, though I'd been praying all day for it since the pain was so overwhelming. I may have forgotten to pray to heal them, but God didn't forget to heal me

In all this I was reminded by God how much he wants us to help the poor. This is one of the glaring flaws of Witness Lee's ministry, that they deliberately avoid ministering to the poor when it's on God's heart that we do so. And then I realized, this is an argument we can also press into to when helping others to realize the truth about Lee's ministry.

God's word clearly shows he is concerned for the poor and needy. In the Matthew 25 sheep/goat judgment Jesus personally damns the goats because they turned a cold shoulder to the poor. Many people also think Sodom was judged due to sexual immorality which is true, but their original sin was that they were proud and didn't help the poor and needy:

Ezekiel 16:49
Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy.

There are tons of other scripture to this regard I'm sure the rest of you can pull up. Lee abused Jesus' words "the poor and needy you have with you always" referring to the disciples question: "Why this waste?" regarding Mary's pouring of the alabaster flask to justify not helping the poor and needy when the bible clearly teaches elsewhere that helping the poor should be an integral part of Christian ministry. For some reason Lee was so willing to over emphasize those verses while overlooking the Apostle Paul's willingness to include helping the poor as part of his ministry:

Galatians 2:10 ESV
Only, they asked us to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.

[InChristAlone]

That's a good news, brother bearbear! I don't want to sound like a leeist, but I do want to say, "Praise the Lord!"

Brothers, can somebody make a short list of other glaring flaws of Witness Lee's ministry?

I have some links:

Questionable Teachings of the “Local Church” and Living Stream Ministry
http://watchmansbagpipes.blogspot.co...al-church.html

The Exclusivism of the Local Church by Jim Moran
http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?o...d=478&Itemid=8

Watching Out for Watchman Nee
http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/wnee.html

The History of Witness Lee's son, Philip Lee
http://www.thebereans.net/forum2/showthread.php?t=39435

The Writing on the Wall
http://assemblylife.com/witness-lee-.../chapter-1.htm

The False Gospel of Witness Lee and the Living Stream Ministries
http://contrast2.wordpress.com/2010/...am-ministries/

Witness Lee's Local Church Denomination
http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/lc.html

The Overcomers and the Non-Overcomers
http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/lc.html#Overcomers

Easy-Believism
http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/lc.html#easy

Does 2 Peter 2's warning of false teachers describe Witness Lee?
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ad.php?p=30719
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ad.php?p=30712

Open Letter to Ron Kangas
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...read.php?t=529

Concerns about the Local Churches
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ead.php?t=4734

Did Witness Lee believe his teaching on "One city one church"?
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ead.php?t=4090

Speaking the Truth in Love - John Ingalls. Speaking the Truth in Love

A True Account of Events and Concerns Related to The Local Churches 1987 – 1989

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...read.php?t=411

My Experience in the Local Churches – Steve Isitt
http://www.twoturmoils.com/MyExperie...alChurches.pdf

Ex-Member's Memoirs
http://www.thethreadofgold.com/TheThreadOfGold.pdf

My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church - Dr. Hsu
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ead.php?t=3489
http://www.amazon.com/The-Unforgetta.../dp/1612157874
http://www.amazon.com/My-Unforgettab...cm_cr-mr-title

Open Letter To the Leadership of The Local Church of Witness Lee
http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...of-Witness-Lee

Important Facts About Witness Lee's Cult
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/wlcult.htm

A Ex-Local Church Testimony
http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/lcx13.html
http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/lcx12.html
http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/lcx11.html
http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/lcx8.html
http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/lcx1.html
http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/lcx4.html
http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/lcx9.html


But I want something brief and easy for understanding. Something that any leeist can comprehend, test, and decide if it's right or not. I don't mean Modalism, "the Processed God", and other rocket science. An ordinary leeist trusts his guru in these questions because the guru "knows best". I want something simple, down to earth, and... glowing. Take Lee's attitude to the poor and other churches, easy-believism, or the "overcomer" thing which is not in the Bible.

Thanks!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

Brothers, can somebody make a short list of other glaring flaws of Witness Lee's ministry?

I have a few links:

You have done your homework ICA. This is helpful. Perhaps it can be made "sticky."

[InChristAlone]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You have done your homework ICA. This is helpful. Perhaps it can be made "sticky."

I am still in the process. Wish someone could help me to systematize my thoughts.

Right now I am thinking of an algorithm that might make a leeist with rational mind leave the Local Church, in other words, what he should know about this organization and how this knowledge can help him to make a decision.

1 The False Gospel of Witness Lee.

One should know that the Local Church doesn't follow teachings of Christ but Witness Lee’s teachings. And they are two different things.

How the Local Church doctrines contradict the teachings of Scripture... (There must be some examples)

a) The Overcomers and the Non-Overcomers.

"This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God." 1 John 5:3-5

http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/lc.html#Overcomers

b) Easy-Believism

"And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." In this phrase they take "calling on the name" out of context, not considering the figure of speech being used. But they should have realized their error if they simply read Romans 10.

Romans 10:13,14

"for, 'Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in?
And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard?
And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?"

To call on someone's name is not simply to mouth the words, as they advocate. One must first know the person. In reality what happens in such conversions is that a person is given the phrase "O Lord Jesus", and then sticks it on whatever idol the person has built in their own mind of what a "Jesus" is, rather than conforming their definition of Christ to the Bible. (But then again I find similar practices quite common in other evangelical churches too).

Secondly in teaching unbelievers to say "O Lord" they are teaching people to lie. To call Jesus "Lord" without the intention of doing what he said, that is to practice lying. Jesus said,"Why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do the things which I say?"Luke 6:46 According to Jesus what he thinks calling him "Lord" means is that, perhaps among other things, you are agreeing to to what he said. In fact there are perhaps many Christians who likewise are lying, not having the right to call Jesus "Lord", as allegedly "believing in Christ" but without the intention of doing what he said.
http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/lc.html#easy

c) ...

d) ...

2 The Local Church and Non-denominational Churches.

The Local Church is not a non-denomination church, but a denomination in its own right, the denomination of Witness Lee.

a) Principles, signs, and similarities of denominational churches and the church of Witness Lee.

- reading texts written by only one author
- undivided authority - headquarters and LSM
- indisputable authority of Witness Lee and elders
- hierarchy - full-times, elders and responsible brothers
-
-

3 The Local Church and Cult Characteristics.

a) Principles, warning signs, and similarities between cults and the church of Witness Lee.

- self-appointed, dogmatic and messianic leader who is always right.
- reading texts written by one author.
- undivided authority - headquarters and LSM.
- indisputable reputation and authority of Witness Lee and elders
- WL is the exclusive means of knowing "truth", no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.
- anything the leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.
- no critical questions about leader, doctrine, or policy seen as legitimate. The leadership are godly, honest, have divine authority and you must trust them.
- extreme obsessiveness regarding the leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration ("Fellowship with brothers", "Ask the Lord which tie to wear today.")
- misplaced loyalty. Loyalty for Christ is replaced by the Local Church and Witness Lee.
- claiming to have a special corner on the truth, something no other groups has. They put down other churches, while pointing out their faults and errors to build themselves up.
- blind loyalty to whatever Witness Lee and elders say.
- pride of the group. We are the only ones who are right. (As a brother said, "They don't think they can learn anything from you. They believe that already have all the answers").
- they alone have the truth so one must join them to be saved. The cult has an us against them attitude.
- submission.
- preoccupying with bringing in new members.
- discouraging questioning and critical thinking, rejection of rational analysis and constructive criticism.
- automatic acceptance of beliefs.
- devotion to convert others to their group and its belief system. Service to the church is understood as service to God. Meetings are mandatory. One's meetings will keep them so busy they will no longer have time for their friends and family, job or hobbies.
- blind implicit belief in Witness Lee and his word.
- Mind-numbing, mind-altering practices and techniques.
- elitism, claiming a special, exalted status for themselves and their teachings.
- inducing guilt feelings in members.
- Divine Commission - claiming new revelation from God.
- schedule control, major time commitment required for indoctrination sessions and group rituals, keeping members so busy they don't have time to think. They expect you to attend all group activities.
- mind programming and intense study with focus is on the LC doctrines.
- extensive use of cult generated information and propaganda - radio, books, magazines, journals, bookshops.
- excessive use of fear, fear of thinking independently, fear of losing one's "salvation", fear of leaving the group or being shunned by group, fear of disapproval.
- phobia indoctrination - programming of irrational fears of ever leaving the group or even questioning the leader's authority. The members feel there can be no life outside the context of the Local Church. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.
- no happiness or fulfillment "outside" of the group.
- terrible consequences will take place if you leave: "hell"; "demon possession"; "incurable diseases"; "accidents"; "suicide"; "insanity"; etc.
- shunning of leave takers. Fear of being rejected by friends, peers, and family.
- never a legitimate reason to leave. From the group's perspective, people who leave are: "weak"; "undisciplined"; "unspiritual"; "worldly"; "brainwashed by family, counselors"; seduced by money, power, sex, rock and roll.
- information control.
- need to ask permission for major decisions.
- rejection of old values.
- confusing doctrines.
- adopting "loaded" language (characterized by "thought-terminating clichés").
- need to internalize the group's doctrine as "Truth".
- individualism discouraged, group think prevails.
- thought-stopping techniques - chanting, hamming and various forms of repetitive actions to stop critical thinking.
- no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or evil.
- former followers are at best considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided.
- former members relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.
- striving for the unreachable - no matter what you do, it is never enough.
- followers feel they can never be "good enough", there is no spiritual growth after many years.
-
-
-

http://www.prem-rawat-talk.org/forum...cteristics.htm
http://www.letusreason.org/culteac.htm

b) Similarities between the church of Witness Lee and Mormons, Jehovah Witness, Islam, etc.

(Actually, it's more or less the same but maybe there are some good points to mention).

-
-
-

4 Peace, Love and Salvation in Christ.

Salvation in Christ, not the Church of Witness Lee. Leaving the Local Church, one should not be afraid that he is betraying God. He doesn't betray God. He comes back to Him.

Brothers, what can we mention?

-
-
-
-