My Journey to the Local Church, and beyond...

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

I, too, had the idea that perhaps when Paul wrote in Romans seven about "The things that I don't want to do, I still do" he wasn't speaking hypothetically, but from real [post-conversion] experience. Perhaps.

Also this view casts the following Romans 8 quotes from Paul more in the "grace" category than the "works" one:

"What shall then separate us from the love of God?" and "Who then accuses us when God has chosen us for His own?"

Etc etc. Paul, even, could fail. God would not fail. God had chosen Paul and God's mercy endures forever.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by aron

Also this view casts the following Romans 8 quotes from Paul more in the "grace" category than the "works" one:

"What shall then separate us from the love of God?"

There you go! Darkness, religion, bitterness, anger, unforgiveness, blame, adultery, fornication, idolatry, etc... all these things seperate us from the LOVE of GOD. But if our hearts are truly filled with LOVE, God's LOVE 'cause our earthly love ain't worth beans, then He will help us get rid of all that junk in us. We focus on Loving Him, and the more we thank Him for Loving us and pour out our alabaster box on HIM, He takes away those things that weigh us down. He takes away our pain and hurt. If we do not LOVE GOD, then we are going to live a miserable life. Once we begin focusing on Loving our Creator, our Savior, our Healer, our Deliverer, our Lord and King, THEN we will be able to love one another and help those who are downtrodden.

So we remember 1 JOHN 4:8
He WHO DOES NOT LOVE does not know God, for God is LOVE.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

There you go! Darkness, religion, bitterness, anger, unforgiveness, blame, adultery, fornication, idolatry, etc... all these things seperate us from the LOVE of GOD. But if our hearts are truly filled with LOVE, God's LOVE 'cause our earthly love ain't worth beans, then He will help us get rid of all that junk in us. We focus on Loving Him, and the more we thank Him for Loving us and pour out our alabaster box on HIM, He takes away those things that weigh us down. He takes away our pain and hurt. If we do not LOVE GOD, then we are going to live a miserable life. Once we begin focusing on Loving our Creator, our Savior, our Healer, our Deliverer, our Lord and King, THEN we will be able to love one another and help those who are downtrodden.

So we remember 1 JOHN 4:8
He WHO DOES NOT LOVE does not know God, for God is LOVE.

"I declare WAR!!!!"

...

"I declare A LOVE WAR!!!!"

(In the best of timing, Patricia King yelled this out on Sid Roth today)

http://youtu.be/q1Yr_8l_4Ww

[aron]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

So we remember 1 JOHN 4:8
He WHO DOES NOT LOVE does not know God, for God is LOVE.

When you see RG, RK, BP, DYL, TC and other leaders separating themselves from each other you realize that they had no love for one another; or conversely that they loved their doctrines, teachings, and organizations more than the actual human being next to them (i.e. their 'neighbor').

All of which is fine: they've got their respective journeys and I've got mine. And mine has been filled with failure enough for me to realize that stone-throwing probably isn't on my agenda any time soon.

You know that place where it says, simply, "Jesus wept"? Sometimes I think the whole awful predicament of the human race just hit Him all at once and overwhelmed Him, like a tidal wave of anguish and despair. I used to weep with bitter frustration, confusion, and shame, with the sorrow of both my own and the world's failures weighing on me like a massive stone.

I still feel that way, sometimes, but I always remember what Jesus said about the mountain. One word from God and it is gone. Nothing can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

I had a really good day yesterday, and just wanted to share it here.

We had some very dear friends from our old "church in Winnipeg" and Home meeting group in-province here for a family reunion, and my family and I (though not related by marriage or blood) were invited. To be honest, I have been leery of going to meet with them, although my wife has always kept in touch. It's not that I am afraid that they will try to convince me to return to the group, it's that I have worried that they might start asking why we left; and asked, I will have to honestly answer. I tried that, once before, and it lead to offense and abject fear. The sister I was addressing that time literally ran from the room and closed the door. I don't want to hurt these people. I love them, and yesterday brought that home again.

I enjoyed seeing them, I enjoyed their welcome. We talked, caught up on where we're at in life, played games, ate some food and watched our kids play together. There was no agenda on either side, and that was encouraging.

I know I have said it before, but I will say it again - there are some very dear saints in the local churches. The fact that there are some genuine Christians there doesn't mean the teachings in the local churches are all good - I think there are genuine Christians in the Roman Catholic church too, after all, and the faults I see in the teachings of that church.... well, you know what I mean. Anyway, knowing that there are real brothers and sisters in an LSM fellowship should keep our tone and our handling of those ones on the level of loving family (and I'm reminding myself of that as much as any of you).

As Paul wrote, we should "be prepared in season and out of season; (to) correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction..." 2 Timothy 4:2. But in writing that, Paul was speaking specifically of Preaching the Word - not of preaching the unrighteous sins of a sinister false-apostle. I think, if our heart is really for the brothers and sisters left behind in the "fog" (to borrow a term of Mike's), we will see that the best thing we can do for them is to live out our faith in a real way for them to see; and do that with all honesty and sincerity, confessing our own failings and trials as well as the victories and encouragements. In short, love them: for Christ said "By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." John 13:35.

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Hello all,

I have been meaning to write for over a year now, but everytime I thought to I had a sense of dread soon follow... and I never overcame it, not until now.

It has been over two years since I have written, or even visited this site. So much has happened in that time. I want to share some of that, I have to, I just don't know where to start.... well, maybe I do.

It was the summer of 2015. My wife, who has always kept in contact with a number of the sisters from the Church, heard early one morning that there had been a horrible incident back home. A dear sister, who had been like a mother to my wife, and like a grandmother to our children, had an aneurysm. Her family rushed her to the hospital, she was overwhelmed with pain - screaming, she passed out. The likelihood of her survival was in doubt. There were calls for prayer, and when I heard the news, I was overwhelmed with grief and I prayed like I hadn't prayed in years. Not in power, not in eloquence, but in tears and through sobs I prayed for her. I loved her - do love her - but not in my own self. It is Christ's love for her that poured out of me.

Christ worked a miracle. Saints from around the world prayed for her; and although the doctor's prognosis was grim (it was at first highly unlikely she would live, and when miraculously she survived, the doctor said she would never be the same), but Christ proved him wrong. She not only survived, she presses on in the Lord - her first day of consciousness she sang a hymn to Him from her bed. She shares in the meetings to this day with the same love (can it be greater?) that she always has. There is no slowness of mind, no change in her personality, no withering of her being. She is entirely whole. A miracle. Her miracle. My miracle was the love of Christ pouring out of me.

I have a friend in Three Hills, I have mentioned him before. He is someone I pursue the Lord with. It was a day or two later, and our families were together for dinner. As we were talking about these miracles, our love for the saints, he seemed to search himself for words, and then:

"everything you’ve ever told me about these people (the Saints)…I don’t understand.* I have to ask… WHY did you ever leave them?** Did you see Christ in them?* Wasn’t their living a real testimony to Christ’s work in them?* I’ve never even SEEN that in a Christian….”*

That stopped me. I had a reply and it died on my lips, because what that brother saw, through all of the stories I had told over the years, was something so simple that I don't know how I didn't see it. The answer to his question, which I came to after some fumbling, was an honest one:

"Yes... I saw Christ in them. And I... I don't know anymore."

I can write to you about our trials in Three Hills. I could write about the lack of fellowship we had through a lot of those trials. I could write about the storm at the church we attended, dear members leaving and personal tragedies. But that's not why I am writing.

We suffered, and as we suffered we prayed. There were events and there were miracles...a phone call, a job offer, a chance to move home when the economy had turned and my employer had lost his mind. It was no easy move, we had a house to sell when the housing market was upside down... but the Saints opened their homes. I moved back, as welcome as I ever had been. Loved as I always was. I left my family behind, for a number of months; and the saints cared for me.

We are all back now; even my prodigals. Our house in Three Hills never sold; but the Lord provided renters who care for it well. For a year we have been back, enjoying the Lord together with the saints.

....Wherever you are, dear reader, just keep it simple. Seek fellowship with those who genuinely love the Lord. Those in whom you see Him.

In the love of Christ Jesus,

Neither first, nor last.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

"everything you’ve ever told me about these people (the Saints)…I don’t understand.* I have to ask… WHY did you ever leave them?** Did you see Christ in them?* Wasn’t their living a real testimony to Christ’s work in them?* I’ve never even SEEN that in a Christian….”*

That stopped me. I had a reply and it died on my lips, because what that brother saw, through all of the stories I had told over the years, was something so simple that I don't know how I didn't see it. The answer to his question, which I came to after some fumbling, was an honest one:

"Yes... I saw Christ in them. And I... I don't know anymore."

While there is much to be said concerning the peculiar and marginal (even marginally heretical) doctrines that are in their theology, they did not create it, nor are they of the character of the ones who hold them within that marginality. It was something in them seeking Christ that was unfortunately fooled by the outward display of spirituality of Nee, Lee, and or their teachings that captured them. But more than that, it was a lot of people like themselves.

Do no confuse the people With the system that ensnares them. That has so much magnetism and façade to keep them from realizing what is behind the curtain. Cherish them. If they will continue to have meals with you, keep doing it. But be prepared that if (more like when) the conversation turns to the beliefs and practices, they will assume that you are still on board, just having some other issue. Like when my sister asked me something like "You agree with Brother Lee about [I can't remember what these 9 years later]?" I thought about that particular item for a moment and said "No, I do not." It was not a dig at the LRC no matter what the point. It was an honest disagreement on doctrine or practice.

And since then there has not been a single mention of the LRC. If she and her family were not just that — family — I doubt we would be getting together later this month for my 62nd birthday. It may be no more than dinner at a restaurant on the nearest Sunday. But we are not strangers.

But without that connection, the desire to keep in touch will fade. Or they will be warned-off by the leadership saying you are lepers or opposers. and being dutifully followers of the "brothers," they will comply.

But the entirety of those in the so-called Church in Irving ceased to exist when we left so many years ago. One call from someone that I considered at least a little more real in his walk with Christ rather than his following of LRC traditions. But that was it. I do not see any of them anywhere (unless one of them happens to be at my sister's house when we visit there).

Once you are seen as beyond "recovery" even the more genuine ones will tend to let you go. Have excuses for not having dinner together. What is right about them is captured in a closed society and answers to its call or order, not what they would naturally feel inside. You may find some exceptions. But do not be surprised when it is pretty much as I describe here.

[Ohio]

NFNL, the church is people, real people, the people near to us, the people with God in Christ as the Spirit living in their hearts, the people we love, and the people who love us. Of course, you knew that.

No ministry or denomination can replace that. When some human ministry demands an allegiance which interferes with our love for the Lord and for His children, then, and only then, must we leave that ministry. That's what happened to us when we left.

I rejoice because you are in a better place, filled with the love of God. He loves you and has blessed your family. Praise Him! His love is not dependent upon some ministry. That love is only dependent upon God and His children.

Great post, thanks for writing.

[Cal]

What was good about the LCM is that it taught us to seek Christ and only Christ.

What was bad about it is that it went on to insist that could define for us what was Christ and what wasn't, even to the point of saying it was Christ and little else was.

This is the CONFUSING DICHOTOMY of the LCM. That it mixed crucial truths with crucial lies.

Seek only Christ! YES!!

We only are Christ! NO!!

For some the best experience of Christ they ever had was in the LCM. But also some of the worst spiritual abuses were there too. How can this be? I don't know, that is the essense of the CONFUSING DICHOTOMY.

For some, their recognition of the negative things about the LCM caused them to deny their good experiences. This caused a dissonance within themselves, because they know they experienced good things. This causes inner conflict and, if pressed, unhealthy denial.

The other side of this is the good experiences caused some to deny the negative aspects because of the question raised their minds: "How can something that seems so good be bad?" This also causes inner conflict and, if pressed, unhealthy denial.

Well, it's not a matter of good or bad. It's a matter of how some good things fell into the hands of some people who abused them, who used them in the service of the mistaken idea that they and they alone could dispense the experience of these things and had franchise rights to them.

It's not the organization, it's the organism. The problem is the LCM has equated the organization with the organism. THEY are IT, they think. Well they are, but not to the point of denying it to anyone else. We are all IT.

The Church is the people, the true worshipers who worship in spirit and truth. If you begin to think too much of yourself just remember that Jesus told the proud Jews God could raise up worshipers from stones on the ground. Enjoy the blessings of your full citizenship in the Kingdom of God, even enjoy them in your own way and the way of the culture of your group. But never think anything is proprietary to you or your group or that you control or define others' access to them.

THAT is the FUNDAMENTAL ERROR which leads to the CONFUSING DICHOTOMY, where the devil uses the good things of God against God's own people.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

[COLOR="Blue"][I]"everything you’ve ever told me about these people (the Saints)…I don’t understand.* I have to ask… WHY did you ever leave them?** Did you see Christ in them?* Wasn’t their living a real testimony to Christ’s work in them?* I’ve never even SEEN that in a Christian….”*

[I]"Yes... I saw Christ in them. And I... I don't know anymore."

When you're considered positive for the ministry LSM publishes, you see Christ in them. As soon as you question, have concerns, etc, you don't know anymore because the Christ you saw in them before are replaced as what OBW posted, "they will be warned-off by the leadership saying you are lepers or opposers. and being dutifully followers of the "brothers," they will comply."

[countmeworthy]

Hi again everyone,
I had an unusual call this week and this post prompted me to share it with you all.

First a quick background of my LC life. I was 21 when I got saved through the sharing of the gospel by the LC saints in 1975. I quickly moved into a sister's house.

I was very active and committed to the Lord and the church life. But by 1978, as we know the church life was murky. So I left.

Fast forward, in 2005, I visited my old church locality where a few of the saints from 1975 I knew well were still there. We had a nice 'family reunion' and truth be told, I was contemplating and praying as to return to the 'LC'. But it did not sit well even though I still loved the saints and felt a connection with them.

Btw, I live in a total different state from my church 'roots'. I was in the church life in California and have not lived in California since 1978!

We did not stay in touch after my visit but we exchanged telephone numbers.

NOW... to what transpired this week. I got a call from a sister I lived with back in the day. Boy. Was I surprised! She called to tell me that a sister we knew had recently passed away and wondered if I had lived in her household. I had not but of course I knew her. We were in the same 'locality' back then.

What was even stranger is that this sister and I briefly corresponded through this forum several years ago. She and her parents and siblings had left the LC in the 80s I think.. but a few years ago, her parents went back and there was a huge fallout between them as she was upset they returned.

I was told the mom had been caring for her daughter while she was stricken with cancer and that made me feel good knowing there was reconciliation in the family.

But why would I need to be contacted ? I have not had any contact with anyone since 1978/79 except for the brief visit to Cali in 2005.

I truly believe the Holy Spirit led my sister/friend to call me. We had good fellowship and fun reminiscing of our days when the church life in our locality was fun, good and healthy.

We did not talk much about the 'church life' as it is now. We prayed for the family of our sister / friend who is no longer suffering and is now in the Arms of the Lord.

And so... I now have it in my spirit to pray for my LC friends. But as the old song we used to sing:
NO..NO.. No, no. no. I'll never go back anymore.

Blessings to all..
God is GOOD. Jesus is our King and Lord, Savior, Redeemer, Friend, and Lover of our souls. Praise His Holy Name forevermore. Amen.

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

I had a really good day yesterday, and just wanted to share it here.

We had some very dear friends from our old "church in Winnipeg" and Home meeting group in-province here for a family reunion, and my family and I (though not related by marriage or blood) were invited. To be honest, I have been leery of going to meet with them, although my wife has always kept in touch. It's not that I am afraid that they will try to convince me to return to the group, it's that I have worried that they might start asking why we left; and asked, I will have to honestly answer. I tried that, once before, and it lead to offense and abject fear. The sister I was addressing that time literally ran from the room and closed the door. I don't want to hurt these people. I love them, and yesterday brought that home again.

I enjoyed seeing them, I enjoyed their welcome. We talked, caught up on where we're at in life, played games, ate some food and watched our kids play together. There was no agenda on either side, and that was encouraging.

I know I have said it before, but I will say it again - there are some very dear saints in the local churches. The fact that there are some genuine Christians there doesn't mean the teachings in the local churches are all good - I think there are genuine Christians in the Roman Catholic church too, after all, and the faults I see in the teachings of that church.... well, you know what I mean. Anyway, knowing that there are real brothers and sisters in an LSM fellowship should keep our tone and our handling of those ones on the level of loving family (and I'm reminding myself of that as much as any of you).

As Paul wrote, we should "be prepared in season and out of season; (to) correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction..." 2 Timothy 4:2. But in writing that, Paul was speaking specifically of Preaching the Word - not of preaching the unrighteous sins of a sinister false-apostle. I think, if our heart is really for the brothers and sisters left behind in the "fog" (to borrow a term of Mike's), we will see that the best thing we can do for them is to live out our faith in a real way for them to see; and do that with all honesty and sincerity, confessing our own failings and trials as well as the victories and encouragements. In short, love them: for Christ said "By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." John 13:35.

[countmeworthy]

God is GOOD. Jesus is our King and Lord, Savior, Redeemer, Friend, and Lover of our souls. Praise His Holy Name forevermore. Amen.

The Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.