My Journey to the Local Church, and beyond...

[OBW]

I have come to see grace as more active in our lives and demanding activity at some level. Consider Titus 2:11-14. It provides a slightly different view of grace.

It teaches us to refuse unrighteousness and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives. The result is that we are eager to do what is good.

Does anyone know what the gold-bar ministry says about that? Is that simply redefined as Christ, and if you are not eager to do good then you just need to wait for more dispensing of Christ?

Does it argue with Peter who says that you have everything you need?

[bearbear]

Deleting due to repost

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by OBW

I have come to see grace as more active in our lives and demanding activity at some level. Consider Titus 2:11-14. It provides a slightly different view of grace.

It teaches us to refuse unrighteousness and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives. The result is that we are eager to do what is good.

To me God's grace is everything he does for us to make sure we become his children in eternity, and the bride of his son Jesus short of violating our free will. So the amount of activity required would be exercising our free will to turn from our sins and obey and follow Him through faith. In other words "desiring God" Faith is implied because God is invisible and we can't see him, yet we choose to desire him above all the things that we can see in this world. (Abraham believed in God and it was counted to him as righteousness)

God's grace works on a legal level by providing the sacrifice for our sins by which He can blot out our transgressions and remember them no more, but it also works tangibly when God gives us his Holy Spirit when we obey him.

Acts 5:32
And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

Ezekiel 36:26-27
And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

(Side note: this was the passage Jesus was probably holding Nicodemus accountable for when he quizzed him about the need for his spirit to be "born again")

Although we have his Holy Spirit, God still cannot violate our free will, so we still have to live according to the leading of the Spirit, which we are able to when God gave us a new heart after we were born again.

Romans 8:1 (KJV)
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Yesterday as I was reciting Psalms 23, I meditated on the verse "He leads us in paths of righteousness for his name's sake." and realized it's a reference to God not being able to deny himself and thereby remaining faithful to us even when we are shamelessly unfaithful (2 Tim 2). We're like these hopeless sheep who always go astray, fully at the mercy of our Shepherd who leads us on the narrow path that leads to eternal life. Without God's grace we would be totally lost not knowing where to go and our desire to come to Him would be in vain.

Ezekiel 36 is also a good OT chapter to read on this subject. It gives a wonderful picture of the plan of God's grace proving that the NT doesn't have a monopoly on the revelation of grace.

Ezekiel 36:32 "But remember says the Sovereign Lord, I am not doing this because you deserve it..."

Grace is grace because we don't deserve it. Hence spiritual pride doesn't make sense in this context but only humility. So God gives grace to the humble, whilst resisting the proud (James 4:6)

[aron]

I, too, had the idea that perhaps when Paul wrote in Romans seven about "The things that I don't want to do, I still do" he wasn't speaking hypothetically, but from real experience. Perhaps.

The alternative would be that Paul, post-conversion, never struggled with the issue of sin. Which I argue WL wanted us to believe, because WL supposedly "inherited the mantle of Paul" as holding the so-called ministry of the age, and thus also was de facto without error, or sin.

I suspect that Paul was probably like the rest of us, a person like Peter whose failures, even post-resurrection, were amply documented. But either way it isn't critical.

On the other side, about grace, I remember singing Psalm 136, and it kept saying over and over again, that the sure mercies of God endured forever. At some point it hit me: no matter how stubborn the sin might cling to me, even more stubborn was the endurance of God's love. God's mercy really does endure forever.

That, to me, was a moment of grace. No matter how big and tough the sin which confronts me in the world, in my soul, in my flesh, so much bigger and tougher and stronger is the love of God, the saving love of God in Jesus Christ. This love endures forever. Suddenly, instead of being confronted by the accusation of my failure, I was confronted with the revelation of God's eternal love. What a moment of grace that was!

WL of course made fun of Psalm 136, and mocked the saints who were 'enjoying' it... It was too "low" for him. As usual, I think he completely missed the boat.

Peter failed, but Jesus' prayer for Peter did not fail (Luke 22:32). We have such a high priest interceding for us (Heb 4:14 - 10:18). Who would not be encouraged to try and obey, when they see such a one standing in the breech on their behalf! Should we not struggle to strengthen our feeble flesh and follow (Heb 12)?

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

I, too, had the idea that perhaps when Paul wrote in Romans seven about "The things that I don't want to do, I still do" he wasn't speaking hypothetically, but from real [post-conversion] experience. Perhaps.

Also this view casts the following Romans 8 quotes from Paul more in the "grace" category than the "works" one:

"What shall then separate us from the love of God?" and "Who then accuses us when God has chosen us for His own?"

Etc etc. Paul, even, could fail. God would not fail. God had chosen Paul and God's mercy endures forever.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by aron

Also this view casts the following Romans 8 quotes from Paul more in the "grace" category than the "works" one:

"What shall then separate us from the love of God?"

There you go! Darkness, religion, bitterness, anger, unforgiveness, blame, adultery, fornication, idolatry, etc... all these things seperate us from the LOVE of GOD. But if our hearts are truly filled with LOVE, God's LOVE 'cause our earthly love ain't worth beans, then He will help us get rid of all that junk in us. We focus on Loving Him, and the more we thank Him for Loving us and pour out our alabaster box on HIM, He takes away those things that weigh us down. He takes away our pain and hurt. If we do not LOVE GOD, then we are going to live a miserable life. Once we begin focusing on Loving our Creator, our Savior, our Healer, our Deliverer, our Lord and King, THEN we will be able to love one another and help those who are downtrodden.

So we remember 1 JOHN 4:8
He WHO DOES NOT LOVE does not know God, for God is LOVE.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

There you go! Darkness, religion, bitterness, anger, unforgiveness, blame, adultery, fornication, idolatry, etc... all these things seperate us from the LOVE of GOD. But if our hearts are truly filled with LOVE, God's LOVE 'cause our earthly love ain't worth beans, then He will help us get rid of all that junk in us. We focus on Loving Him, and the more we thank Him for Loving us and pour out our alabaster box on HIM, He takes away those things that weigh us down. He takes away our pain and hurt. If we do not LOVE GOD, then we are going to live a miserable life. Once we begin focusing on Loving our Creator, our Savior, our Healer, our Deliverer, our Lord and King, THEN we will be able to love one another and help those who are downtrodden.

So we remember 1 JOHN 4:8
He WHO DOES NOT LOVE does not know God, for God is LOVE.

"I declare WAR!!!!"

...

"I declare A LOVE WAR!!!!"

(In the best of timing, Patricia King yelled this out on Sid Roth today)

http://youtu.be/q1Yr_8l_4Ww

[aron]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

So we remember 1 JOHN 4:8
He WHO DOES NOT LOVE does not know God, for God is LOVE.

When you see RG, RK, BP, DYL, TC and other leaders separating themselves from each other you realize that they had no love for one another; or conversely that they loved their doctrines, teachings, and organizations more than the actual human being next to them (i.e. their 'neighbor').

All of which is fine: they've got their respective journeys and I've got mine. And mine has been filled with failure enough for me to realize that stone-throwing probably isn't on my agenda any time soon.

You know that place where it says, simply, "Jesus wept"? Sometimes I think the whole awful predicament of the human race just hit Him all at once and overwhelmed Him, like a tidal wave of anguish and despair. I used to weep with bitter frustration, confusion, and shame, with the sorrow of both my own and the world's failures weighing on me like a massive stone.

I still feel that way, sometimes, but I always remember what Jesus said about the mountain. One word from God and it is gone. Nothing can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

I had a really good day yesterday, and just wanted to share it here.

We had some very dear friends from our old "church in Winnipeg" and Home meeting group in-province here for a family reunion, and my family and I (though not related by marriage or blood) were invited. To be honest, I have been leery of going to meet with them, although my wife has always kept in touch. It's not that I am afraid that they will try to convince me to return to the group, it's that I have worried that they might start asking why we left; and asked, I will have to honestly answer. I tried that, once before, and it lead to offense and abject fear. The sister I was addressing that time literally ran from the room and closed the door. I don't want to hurt these people. I love them, and yesterday brought that home again.

I enjoyed seeing them, I enjoyed their welcome. We talked, caught up on where we're at in life, played games, ate some food and watched our kids play together. There was no agenda on either side, and that was encouraging.

I know I have said it before, but I will say it again - there are some very dear saints in the local churches. The fact that there are some genuine Christians there doesn't mean the teachings in the local churches are all good - I think there are genuine Christians in the Roman Catholic church too, after all, and the faults I see in the teachings of that church.... well, you know what I mean. Anyway, knowing that there are real brothers and sisters in an LSM fellowship should keep our tone and our handling of those ones on the level of loving family (and I'm reminding myself of that as much as any of you).

As Paul wrote, we should "be prepared in season and out of season; (to) correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction..." 2 Timothy 4:2. But in writing that, Paul was speaking specifically of Preaching the Word - not of preaching the unrighteous sins of a sinister false-apostle. I think, if our heart is really for the brothers and sisters left behind in the "fog" (to borrow a term of Mike's), we will see that the best thing we can do for them is to live out our faith in a real way for them to see; and do that with all honesty and sincerity, confessing our own failings and trials as well as the victories and encouragements. In short, love them: for Christ said "By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." John 13:35.