The Jezebel spirit in the LSM

[countmeworthy]

To help me deal with controlling personalities that seemed to follow me for most of my life, I did an indepth study on topics like "Transfer of spirits" "Soul ties" and 'The Jezebel spirit'.

So from gotquestions.com here is an exposition to consider:

There is a variety of opinions about what constitutes a Jezebel spirit, everything from sexual looseness in a woman to the teaching of false doctrine—by a man or a woman. The Bible does not mention a Jezebel spirit, although it has plenty to say about Jezebel herself.

Jezebel’s story is found in 1 and 2 Kings. She was the daughter of Ethbaal, king of Tyre/Sidon and priest of the cult of Baal, a cruel, sensuous and revolting false god whose worship involved sexual degradation and lewdness. Ahab, king of Israel, married Jezebel and led the nation into Baal worship (1 Kings 16:31). Ahab and Jezebel’s reign over Israel is one of the saddest chapters in the history of God’s people.

There are two incidents in the life of Jezebel which characterize her and may define what is meant by the Jezebel spirit. One trait is her obsessive passion for domineering and controlling others, especially in the spiritual realm. When she became queen, she began a relentless campaign to rid Israel of all evidences of Jehovah worship. She ordered the extermination of all the prophets of the Lord (1 Kings 18:4, 13) and replaced their altars with those of Baal. Her strongest enemy was Elijah, who demanded a contest on Mount Carmel between the powers of Israel’s God and the powers of Jezebel and the priests of Baal (1 Kings 18). Of course, Jehovah won, but despite hearing of the miraculous powers of Jehovah, Jezebel refused to repent and swore on her gods that she would pursue Elijah relentlessly and take his life. Her stubborn refusal to see and submit to the power of the living God would lead her to a hideous end (2 Kings 9:29-37).

The second incident involves a righteous man named Naboth who refused to sell to Ahab land adjoining the palace, rightly declaring that to sell his inheritance would be against the Lord’s command (1 Kings 21:3; Leviticus 25:23). While Ahab sulked and fumed on his bed, Jezebel taunted and ridiculed him for his weakness, then proceeded to have the innocent Naboth framed and stoned to death. Naboth’s sons were also stoned to death, so there would be no heirs, and the land would revert to the possession of the king. Such a single-minded determination to have one’s way, no matter who is destroyed in the process, is a characteristic of the Jezebel spirit.

So infamous was Jezebel’s sexual immorality and idol worship that the Lord Jesus Himself refers to her in a warning to the church at Thyatira (Revelation 2:18-29). Most likely referring to a woman in the church who influenced it the same way Jezebel influenced Israel into idolatry and sexual immorality, Jesus declares to the Thyatirans that she is not to be tolerated. Whoever this woman was, like Jezebel, she refused to repent of her immorality and her false teaching, and her fate was sealed. The Lord Jesus cast her onto a sick bed, along with those who committed idolatry with her. The end for those who succumb to a Jezebel spirit is always death and destruction, both in the physical and the spiritual sense.

Perhaps the best way to define the Jezebel spirit is to say it characterizes anyone who acts in the same manner as Jezebel did, engaging in immorality, idolatry, false teaching and unrepentant sin. To go beyond that is to engage in conjecture and can possibly lead to false accusations and divisiveness within the body of Christ.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Jezebel-...#ixzz2oMsKGJRv

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

To help me deal with controlling personalities that seemed to follow me for most of my life, I did an indepth study on topics like "Transfer of spirits" "Soul ties" and 'The Jezebel spirit'.

So from gotquestions.com here is an exposition to consider:
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Jezebel-...#ixzz2oMsKGJRv

Have you ever heard of John Waller's music? When I first listened to his album "As for me and my house" I literally felt feelings of fear, doubt and anger leave my soul. I understood then how David's music could have chased away the evil spirits from Saul and give his soul rest.

Here's one of his songs I feel is anointed by the Holy Spirit and can chase away unwelcome spirits attacking you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dedoSXylNcM

Here's one of my favorite songs when I need encouragement to serve the Lord whole heartedly and look away from the false idols of this earth:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjRiNL1HKns

[awareness]

Well if the tales are true, the founder of the local church movement, Watchman Nee, did act like Jezebel. I don't know if I can let him off the hook, by blaming a spirit of Jezebel. Methinks that Nee was just all too human.

But on the front end Nee portrayed himself as a true follower of the Word of God . And the spirit of Jezebel fits Nee very well there.

Hey, Lee dismissed parts of the Bible. Does anyone know if he dismissed the Jezebel verses? I'd just like to know if Lee covered that up too.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Have you ever heard of John Waller's music?

I appreciate your suggestions BB. I don't struggle with those entities as I once did.

The reason I brought this thread up is so the LSMrs lurking might learn to think outside the box. It was also a possible answer to the question as to how people got sucked in by Lee's teachings & can't break loose from the controlling 'spirit'.

That is just one website. People can google controlling personalities, manipulating people, soul ties, transfer of spirits.

There is a lot of good info out there.

That said, I do a lot of Praise, Worship, and Thanksgiving & have a very close walk with our Lord. At least I think I do. :-)

Blessings,
Carol

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I appreciate your suggestions BB. I don't struggle with those entities as I once did.

The reason I brought this thread up is so the LSMrs lurking might learn to think outside the box. It was also a possible answer to the question as to how people got sucked in by Lee's teachings & can't break loose from the controlling 'spirit'.

That is just one website. People can google controlling personalities, manipulating people, soul ties, transfer of spirits.

There is a lot of good info out there.

That said, I do a lot of Praise, Worship, and Thanksgiving & have a very close walk with our Lord. At least I think I do. :-)

Blessings,
Carol

Ah oops, sorry I misread you

The observation of the Jezebel spirit in LCs is very interesting. Looking back at my time in the LCs it seemed like there was always this presence that was restricting everyone's freedom. I'd always feel guilty for stepping out of the line for things like not dressing up on Sunday or sharing points straying too far from the HWMR or the outline. I remember some times when I'd share stuff, I'd occasionally get rebuked albeit politely because the ministry didn't teach what I said. (This is in California)

There does seem to be a spirit in the LCs that is trying to make everyone look, talk and dress like Witness Lee. That's unfortunate because God made everyone different for a purpose and it's because he loves variety. He made different nations, cultures and peoples because he desires that everyone worship him whole heartedly, but in a way that is unique to their personality. I think it's beautiful and it could be a picture of what heaven is like. Imagine if everyone in heaven wore the same clothes and everything was the same color- it would be bland and uninteresting.

You get a picture that God delights in this variety in Revelation 7:9 -

After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,

And elsewhere in the OT in verses like this:

Psalm 46:10
“Be still, and know that I am God.
I will be exalted among the nations,
I will be exalted in the earth!”

In fact when all the nations were under one government and tongue prior to Babel, God seemed to despise that, instead choosing to disperse everyone across the globe while giving them different languages.

One of the greatest comforts leaving the LC and going to church where I'm at now is that there is so much freedom in Christ. I remember introducing some pre-trib revelations I had with my pastor but I was really hesitant to because they were all die hard post-tribbers. To my surprise he really liked it and even forwarded my blog post to the rest of the ministry leaders. I was almost panicking after I sent the e-mail because I was afraid of being rebuked, then I realized I had nothing to worry about because I wasn't in the LCs anymore.. hallelujah!

[OBW]

Is there any verse in which the term "Jezebel spirit" is used? I know this may seem to run counter to my comment on the creation of the word "excommunication" which is not found in the scripture, but is there value to trying to pin down a defined kind of "spirit" that is not even mentioned in that way in the scripture?

Not saying that there are not characteristics that could look like the actions and ways of the historical Jezebel. But does labeling certain kinds of error or evil in this manner make it anything other than what it actually is as described? Does distilling it down to two words, "Jezebel spirit," make it any worse or any clearer?

It can't be any worse than it actually is. Either it is the evil that is seen or it is not. And it cannot be any clearer than what it actually is. Either the error/evil/whatever is seen for what it is or it is not. Giving it this label does not better define it. It is not made clearer by adding a term that is nowhere defined or commonly understood.

And some guy with a web site does not a meaningful definition make. In fact, his own words make the meaning virtually useless.

There is a variety of opinions about what constitutes a Jezebel spirit, everything from sexual looseness in a woman to the teaching of false doctrine—by a man or a woman. The Bible does not mention a Jezebel spirit, although it has plenty to say about Jezebel herself.

The first sentence is revealing. "There is a variety of opinions. . . ." Then the second sentence just nails it: "The Bible does not mention a Jezebel spirit . . . ."

Perhaps the best way to define the Jezebel spirit is to say it characterizes anyone who acts in the same manner as Jezebel did, engaging in immorality, idolatry, false teaching and unrepentant sin

This one really sets it in perspective. It is almost entirely about wanton sinner who are pushers of religion that is not of God.

Don't get caught up on the word "religion." The point is not "religion," but "not of God." In fact, two of the most notable things about Jezebel are:

1. She was not a Hebrew of any kind. She was from Tyre/Sidon, not Judea or Israel. And she was a priest of a pagan religion/cult — Baal.
2. She was not representative of anything Jewish or Christian. She does not represent or typify any aspect of Christianity or Christian experience, rather of those opposed to it.

Let's face it. Non-Christians are just that, non-Christians. I don't need a label for them. Not even antichrist. (Not saying there is no Antichrist.) I sure don't need something called Jezebel spirit to describe them. It tends to squash the "love your neighbor" thing in me.

And I don't see that there is a valid transference of that kind of description to believers. Even the reference in Revelation does not declare the "Jezebel" to be a believer. Just one who is teaching wrongly or leading the faithful astray.

I think Paul said the same thing in different ways. He said to refuse to listen to certain kinds of teachers. He said to tell them to stop. He did not say to define them and label them. Even the sinful one in 1 Corinthians (who got excommunicated) was not labeled in such a way.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by OBW

Is there any verse in which the term "Jezebel spirit" is used? I know this may seem to run counter to my comment on the creation of the word "excommunication" which is not found in the scripture, but is there value to trying to pin down a defined kind of "spirit" that is not even mentioned in that way in the scripture?

Revelation 2:20 seems to suggest that there is an entity behind Jezebel who has survived the Jezebel we know from Elijah's time and has persisted in the spiritual realm throughout church history to attack Christians, namely the saints in the Church in Thyatira.

Revelation 2:20
But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols.

Ephesians 6:12
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

Here's my personal experienced with named spirits:

One time I went somewhere to meet up with my wife where I'd also end up preaching the gospel to a few homeless, though I didn't know it at the time (it kinda just happened).

As I was on my way a man drove up next to me, rolled down his window and kept swearing and cussing at me because he had to go around me as I pulled into the left turn lane for like one second. I told him I was profusely sorry because it's never worth it to escalate a road rage situation, and I've become so detached to this world that I just don't care to argue or fight about these things. But he just continued to swear and cuss at me.

Later on I realized that Satan was trying to get me to respond in anger so that I would lose my anointing preventing me from being moved to share the gospel with a few homeless (one of them responded really well, and he thought that God had sent me to him perhaps in response to his prayers).

Another instance was I prayed once that God would give me the opportunity to share the gospel with a Jewish man. It was just a short prayer but God answered it when I didn't expect him to. To keep the story short, eventually I found myself with a Jewish man sitting next to me in my car- ASKING ME ABOUT GOD! (I'm quite shy IRL except when it comes to talking about God so I have zero Jewish friends, yet God arranged this circumstance without any of my effort. I understand when scripture says God prepared good works for us and we should walk in them. Many times I feel like an actor in this huge movie of his that God is orchestrating and all I have to do is to look for the cues where he wants me to step in, which we do by following the Holy Spirit. That's why we can experience God's rest while also working for his kingdom. )

I shared my faith with him and answered his questions about Christianity. Because I can't multitask I also missed a few exits and a 30 minute ride turned into an hour. At the end I had an crying baby and a very angry wife. I was perplexed at my spouse's anger because it was *really* severe. But I didn't understand at that time why.

I also had another moment recently where I preached to my wife's aunt in the car. I can't speak cantonese so I had to have her translate. During one of the translations I got impatient and asked my wife what she was saying because she was spending almost a minute on a one liner I gave (I wanted to move on to the next point quickly). She got really mad at me and I realized I had made a mistake and profusely apologized, embarrassed about the testimony we were giving to her unbelieving aunt. Eventually it all worked out though But it was really weird that of all the times we got angry that day it happened during the sharing of the gospel.

One day I was reading Ephesians 4 and I meditated on such experiences I had while gospel preaching. Then I asked God to name the spirit that seemed to always attack me. Right after I asked this I came across verse 26-27:

Ephesians 4:26-27
Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and give no opportunity to the devil.

I believe God was telling me that the spirit of anger was attacking me. So now I know to take authority over this spirit and bind it in the name of Jesus before I share the gospel.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by OBW

Is there any verse in which the term "Jezebel spirit" is used? I know this may seem to run counter to my comment on the creation of the word "excommunication" which is not found in the scripture, but is there value to trying to pin down a defined kind of "spirit" that is not even mentioned in that way in the scripture?

Not saying that there are not characteristics that could look like the actions and ways of the historical Jezebel. But does labeling certain kinds of error or evil in this manner make it anything other than what it actually is as described? Does distilling it down to two words, "Jezebel spirit," make it any worse or any clearer?

It can't be any worse than it actually is. Either it is the evil that is seen or it is not.

The long & short of it :
Jezebel was an evil, controlling, woman who practiced witchcraft. Ahab's mistake was marrying a pagan.

She suffered a horrid death which I'm sure you know.

From what I have read, evil controlling demonic influences are called entities or evil spirits. Demons exist but for the majority of people, we (thankfully) never see them. However, we can feel their presence.

I will give you an example, a personal experience I once had. One day I went window shopping in a quaint little neighborhood town. I stopped to admire the jewelry & scarves that were being displayed. So I decided to walk in and take a look around. The store keeper was not around, probably in the back but I did not need a clerk anyway.

As I was looking at the earrings & necklaces, I suddenly felt a very heavy unsettling presence. I started looking around the store from where I was standing. Within seconds I saw witchcraft books, tarot cards, incense & evil dragon pictures & statues.

I walked out the store & sensing I was dirty, I 'dusted' myself off and asked the Lord Jesus to cleanse me in His Blood.

What I felt was a 'spirit'. An evil entity. A demon. I had to look around to find it. It wanted to get on me not in me.


Bringing it closer to home, in the 70s, when we were youngsters and came into the LC, remember how we 'talked' the same? How when we stood up, many would tip-toe back & forth, clenching their fists as they 'testified'?

Sure we were parroting one another...but that 'spirit' was jumping from one person to another. Remember how 'new ones' fresh from the street did not look, talk or act like us but after a couple of months if that long, they picked up on the lingo, their dress attire changed, and they became an official LCr. It wasn't evil in the beginning. But look how screwed up the LC people have become as a whole.

Good parents watch their children's friends. They do not want their children to be around any kid who is going to be a bad influence. What makes a child be influenced by another child? A spirit.

These types of influences, be it in the LC, or church organization, etc.. have a name: transfer of spirits. Not all transfer of spirits are bad. Hanging out with people who are a positive influence on us both spiritual, mental & emotional is a good thing. That is why the scriptures tell us not to be "unequally yoked".

The reason God did not want the Israelites to marry or mix with the Amelikites or Amorites, etc.. is because they worshipped very evil idols. They were evil people. They often killed to sacrifice their own children.

There was a lot of witchcraft, idolotry, sexual immorality etc..
When you get a chance, revisit 1 & 2 Samuel & 1 & 2 kings.

So much for the long & short of it all.

Blessings,
Carol

[countmeworthy]

More on the Jezebel Spirit. Here is an explanation that might be useful & helpful. Hope it gives a better understanding:

The Spirit of Jezebel By Jon Hamilton

(taken from the book "The Nature Of Our Enemy")

In the book of Revelation, the Lord speaks to the church at Thyatira

"Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols." (Rev 2:20)

At first glance we might ask "What? Jezebel? Didn’t she die back in Second Kings? How can Jezebel be threatening the church in Asia?"

Obviously, the literal person of Jezebel was not present in Thyatira. The reference is a prophetic parallel. Just as John the Baptist was "Elijah" because he came in the spirit and power of Elijah, this person or influence in Thyatira was under the spiritual control of the same demonic influences that controlled Jezebel of old.

Thus, there is a type of demonic influence in society and the church that can rightly be called by the name Jezebel.

This spirit obviously existed long before Queen Jezebel, but she was so totally controlled by its nature that she has become its namesake. In scripture, Herodias is also a type of this force. As Jezebel opposed Elijah, so Herodias opposed John the Baptist. A third example is found here in Revelation 2:20

Queen Jezebel

Jezebel, the Biblical character, first appears in First Kings 16, when she marries Ahab, king of Israel. Jezebel was the daughter of Ethbaal, the king and high priest of the Baal worshipping Sidonians. Baal worship was closely associated with obsessive sensuality and often involved sex acts. Jezebel, as a daughter of this perverse kingdom, was raised in an atmosphere where sex was a path to power and influence.

Ahab, King of Israel, was completely subdued and dominated by Jezebel. Jezebel then introduced the worship of Ashtoroth to Israel. This goddess, represented in Canaanite culture by the moon, was a power-hungry goddess of love and sensuality. Priestess-prostitutes filled her shrines and serviced her worshippers. The lure of these legal, readily available erotic encounters was more than the men of Israel would resist. By Jezebel’s influence, 10 million Israelites left the worship of God for Baal and Ashtoroth. Only 7000 people in the entire nation were not swayed by her control.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Jon Hamilton

Obviously, the literal person of Jezebel was not present in Thyatira. The reference is a prophetic parallel. Just as John the Baptist was "Elijah" because he came in the spirit and power of Elijah, this person or influence in Thyatira was under the spiritual control of the same demonic influences that controlled Jezebel of old.

This explanation of Jezebel in Revelation strikes me as a stretch too far to swallow. The mostly likely explanation is that this was a complete different Jezebel.

The reason this is a stretch, and bothersome to me, is that Hamilton's conjecture presupposes a spirit that gets passed on down the line, a thousand years later. Or maybe a eternal Jezebel spirit flitting and flighting around, jumping into people, all over the place, from generation to generation.

Moreover, if such a spirit of Jezebel is entering into and possessing people, how can God hold the possessed accountable at the judgment seat? After all it's Jezebel doing the bad things. The possessed person is being victimized by a spirit much more powerful than the possessed person could ever dream of being.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by awareness

This explanation of Jezebel in Revelation strikes me as a stretch too far to swallow. The mostly likely explanation is that this was a complete different Jezebel.

The reason this is a stretch, and bothersome to me, is that Hamilton's conjecture presupposes a spirit that gets passed on down the line, a thousand years later. Or maybe a eternal Jezebel spirit flitting and flighting around, jumping into people, all over the place, from generation to generation.

It's possible she's a demonic principality in which case she'd have many other fallen angels or demons under her command.

Moreover, if such a spirit of Jezebel is entering into and possessing people, how can God hold the possessed accountable at the judgment seat? After all it's Jezebel doing the bad things. The possessed person is being victimized by a spirit much more powerful than the possessed person could ever dream of being.

You can't become possessed by a spirit unless you give it authority either by giving it explicit permission or through obeying its temptations. Paul said in Romans 6:16 that we are slaves of the one we obey, in other words we become mastered by whatever we obey. God respects authority and that's why Satan was handed man's God given dominion after Adam listened to the serpent by taking fruit of that other tree. The implication is also that it's very important we make Jesus our master by obeying the Lord and not anything else because Christ says we can only serve one master. If we become mastered by the things of the world, we don't have a legal right to be a part of the Messiah's coming kingdom but we'll be destroyed along with Satan's kingdom when Jesus comes to take his throne here on earth. (Jesus says either you're for me or against me!) Also the eternal fate of the servant cannot exceed that of the master because Jesus taught that a servant is not greater than the master (think of who Jesus says follows Satan to the lake of fire in Matthew).

This has nothing to do with works because we can make Jesus our Lord simply by giving our whole heart to him through faith. We ultimately end up serving the one who has our heart.

Paul tells us to hold every thought captive to the obedient of Christ. I've been practicing this in my mind. Whenever I get a fleshly thought I rebuke it in the name of Jesus. This has done wonders for my spiritual and emotional health, and I rarely get these thoughts anymore. I can testify that it's possible to not lust after a woman in your mind almost indefinitely which is something I never thought was never possible for a man to do. When I see an attractive woman now, the temptation to lust simply doesn't materialize in my head believe it or not and if it does I rebuke it immediately. The less authority you give by not yielding to the desire of your flesh, the less you are susceptible to it. (The difference from asceticism is as Christians we can develop an enormous spiritual hunger from feeding our spirit through prayer, reading bible and doing God's will by loving God and neighbor by which we experience God's presence which is more satisfying than anything we can attain in the flesh - for me to die is gain, to live is Christ - Phil 1:21)

The key was to realize that many of the thoughts we get to sin do not necessarily come from our person but are fiery darts thrown by the enemy (Eph 6:16). With this wisdom, you can quickly disassociate thoughts like this from your identity and by attributing it to the enemy become better equipped to obey your spirit instead which leads to practicing righteousness which leads to holiness which leads to eternal life (Romans 6). In answer to my prayer for God to increase my humility I recently realized I haven't been filtering out temptations leading to spiritual pride which I need to start doing.

If you give any credibility to NDE experiences, here's one by a baptist minister named Howard Pittman who saw demons while he was dead during his NDE which added a lot to my understanding of the spiritual realm:

http://www.near-death.com/forum/nde/000/89.html

Here's a pastor's experience with demonic attack when he was young where he made the revelation that the evil thoughts he had that were driving him crazy were not his and started taking the thoughts captive in obedience to Christ by which he was finally delivered from a spiraling depression that almost ended in suicide:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tvgPX73Ooc

[awareness]

Originally Posted by bearbear

It's possible she's a demonic principality in which case she'd have many other fallen angels or demons under her command.

So let me get this straight. This powerful demon that possessed Jezebel in the Old Testament, and thereby got it's name, came forth a thousand yrs later, to possess the prophetess Jezebel at Thyatira, and then, 2 thousand yrs later possessed Watchman Nee, who then transferred this powerful spirit demon to Witness Lee, both claiming to give their all for Christ?

WOW! The spirit world is a crazy woo-woo world. Who can know it?

And thanks for the personal testimony bearbear ... and the videos. You're one busy dude ... and just spilling over with info.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by awareness

So let me get this straight. This powerful demon that possessed Jezebel in the Old Testament, and thereby got it's name, came forth a thousand yrs later, to possess the prophetess Jezebel at Thyatira, and then, 2 thousand yrs later possessed Watchman Nee, who then transferred this powerful spirit demon to Witness Lee, both claiming to give their all for Christ?

WOW! The spirit world is a crazy woo-woo world. Who can know it?

And thanks for the personal testimony bearbear ... and the videos. You're one busy dude ... and just spilling over with info.

I am currently on vacation so I got plenty of time Actually I feel a huge burden lift off me when I put my thoughts into writing so I do quite enjoy it as I do when I speak IRL.

Hmm I certainly don't think Watchman Nee was a fake Christian. He bore some really good fruit. If the reports of him are true, I'm sure he had come to full repentance after 20 years in prison and I'd be surprised if he wasn't in heaven right now telling some pretty crazy stories. I'm not sure of the theological implications of a demon possessing versus being limited to attacking a Spirit-filled born again Christian- perhaps others can expound on this.

"Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a harmful spirit from the LORD tormented him." - 1 Samuel 16:14

What comes to mind is Saul was once filled with the Spirit of God after his anointing. However it says that the Spirit of God left him before the evil spirits came. So perhaps you can grieve the Holy Spirit to a degree that he actually leaves you (the wind blows where it wills John 3:8), leaving room for demonic possession. This is just something I thought of immediately and have not seriously dwelt on. I believe the NT teaches that you can grieve the Holy Spirit enough for him to leave you, but these people never belonged to God in the first place:

Hebrews 6
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Hmm I certainly don't think Watchman Nee was a fake Christian. He bore some really good fruit. If the reports of him are true, I'm sure he had come to full repentance after 20 years in prison and I'd be surprised if he wasn't in heaven right now telling some pretty crazy stories. I'm not sure of the theological implications of a demon possessing versus being limited to attacking a Spirit-filled born again Christian- perhaps others can expound on this.

Well don't ask me. I certainly can't claim to understand the spirit world.

As to Nee, I too got the feeling he came to repentance before he passed.

But CMW says, concerning the Jezebel spirit:

"The reason I brought this thread up is so the LSMrs lurking might learn to think outside the box. It was also a possible answer to the question as to how people got sucked in by Lee's teachings & can't break loose from the controlling 'spirit'."

In other words, Nee and Lee produced a bewitching (Gal. 3:1) that exerts a kind of mind control over their followers.

Talk about tasting the heavenly gift. Looking back on my LC days I can still taste that controlling spirit.

And calling it Jezebel is fine with me. A Rose by any other name ... smells the same ...

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by awareness

Well don't ask me. I certainly can't claim to understand the spirit world.

You crack me up Harold! I can just hear you say "Well don't ask me! I certainly can't claim to understand the spirit world. "

As to Nee, I too got the feeling he came to repentance before he passed.

Well if being in prison all those years didn't get him to reflect, regret and repent, I guess nothing would! And what a hard heart he would have had. But God would not imho would have used his works to enlighten many people. He would have erased his name from earth. And He would have raised someone else with the same revelation & understanding & even more.

So I too am of the consensus he repented before his passing. Behold. God makes all things new and our sins, He remembers no more.

But CMW says, concerning the Jezebel spirit:

And calling it Jezebel is fine with me. A Rose by any other name ... smells the same ...

Righto amigo. One thing I want to clear up is that be it 'Jezebel' or whatever entity you want to call it, is a religious spirit. Religious spirits are controlling & manipulative evil beings. The LORD'S SPIRIT is LIFE, PEACE and LOVE. His SPIRIT leads us in the path of Righteousness. Righteousness being Christ Jesus. The LORD restores our soul and leads us (to Christ Jesus).

It is my opinion that some early converted Hebrews who could not walk in the Spirit & fell back into Judaism were the ones who founded the RCC. In the mass of the RCC, there is the constant 'sacrificial death of the cross'. (Having been raised Catholic myself, I have some spiritual discernment as the catechism of the RCC was embedded in me - but the Blood of Jesus & the Spirit of LIFE & LOVE set me free. )

So here is what Hebrews 10:1 says:

For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near.

That describes the Catholic mass pretty much in a nutshell.

One thing that impressed me (not necessarily in a positive way but in an observant way) about the priestly rituals of the Catholic mass was the OT rituals: the altar, the candles for incense, the tabernacle at the altar, even the "Holy of Holies" is inside the tabernacle for that is where the 'host' (Christ) resides.

The priests all the way to the Pope wear the attire while performing the mass much like the garments worn by the priests of the OT.

(to be continued as not to make this post longer than it is.)

[countmeworthy]

Now Thyatira in Revelation2 represents the RCC. Not only did Nee/Lee see this but many, many students of the bible over the centuries have. (]Not having any spiritual background when I got saved, when reading the Orthodoxy of the church & listening to messages on the 7 churches while in the LC, my, my did my eyes open up. Sure they were opened up through Nee & Lee BUT they were NOT the FIRST people who knew that Thyatira represented the RCC. I however was led to believe they were. For Lee was 'God's oracle on the earth'. "No one had his revelation & insight.

So back to topic... back in 1 kings, when Jezebel appears, she is a religious person. She worshiped a lot of pagan gods. The more religious she became (she even fasted) the more evil she became.

Now who did she marry? Ahab. A king of Israel whom she weakened severely. What does Satan try to the Body of Christ? The same thing.

She controlled Ahab and put so much fear into Elijah God's prophet, he wanted the Lord to kill him. If you all haven't read 1 & 2 Samuel and 1 & 2 kings, in a while, you should revisit those books. They are real eye openers.

One thing that was a recurring theme in the book of kings was that the most of the kings of Israel and there were MANY would please the Lord to a point. They would destroy a lot of pagan idols and kill God's enemies but almost all of them had trouble killing the biggest idol which I think was Baal. Can't remember for sure.

Anyway...
That Thyatira tolerates Jezebel in Revelation 2 who teaches and "leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols" convinces me personally that the RCC has that 'spirit' of the wicked, evil, religious, idolotrous woman described in 1 kings.

Remember Jezebel was exceedingly sexually immoral, was idolatrous & weakened Ahab her husband and scared the pallooten out of Elijah.

So.. based on my experience having been raised Catholics & knowing tons of Catholics, here is my observation:

Catholics by & large are afraid to leave the 'mother' church. Many in fact believe that those who are in denominations especially Lutherans, Episcopalians & Anglicans (whose church services are very similar to the mass) will all return to the Catholic church.

Catholics are not afraid to sin. But are afraid to leave the RCC.

-------------------
(to be continued)

[countmeworthy]

Thus far there are not too many similarities between the RCC & the LSM but where there ARE, the similarities are uncanny.

For example: By & large, the people in the LSM especially the old timers are afraid to leave the LSM. Their 'pope' is Lee. Lee's catechism is more important than God's WORD. Just watch how they all pull out Lee's commentaries on a scripture the HS enlightened you on. You bring the meaning of it to their attention & they all have to go & check against Lee's teaching on it.

Look how weak the church of the LSM now is compared to how it was in the 50's, 60's and 70's. What did Jezebel do to Ahab? Weaken him. What did she do to Elijah? Scare the ____ out of him.

Did Lee have the spirit of Jezebel? I cannot say nor will I say. What I do know is somewhere along his ministry, he became a very controlling minister.

People became afraid of leaving 'the church'. Heck, most don't even read spiritual commentaries, books or bibles if not part of LSM.

Lee didn't fellowship with other Godly church leaders outside 'his church'.

When he said no one is to use the word Sunday for it is now called 'The Lord's Day', no one argued or shrugged it off.

When he switched from the Holy Bible exclusively to the RcV, he had everyone under his control.
His books, life studies, recordings exclusively fill the meeting halls.

Yet look how many LSMrs now openly sin. But you say something against the LSM or Lee and you get the boot!

I think the reason for him becoming so controlling is he himself became prideful of what the LORD had shown him & gifted him with. He at some point became afraid HIMSELF he would have to give up his control over the church and let the HOLY SPIRIT of GOD HIMSELF lead the church as He did in the beginning of Acts. (Again this is MY personal opinion!)


That said, the religious spirit is prevelent everywhere on the earth. Mormons, JW, Hindus, Buddhists and the list goes on.

Two more things... Ephesians 6:12 which we all KNOW..mentions
1) principalities (against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world) NLT
2) against mighty powers (rulers) in this dark world NLT
3) and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.

3 types of entites are mentioned there.

And Daniel 10:12-14 backs up what is spoken of in Ephesians 6:12

Then he (the Angel Gabriel) said, “Don’t be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day you began to pray for understanding and to humble yourself before your God, your request has been heard in heaven. I have come in answer to your prayer.

But for twenty-one days the spirit prince of the kingdom of Persia blocked my way.

Then Michael, one of the archangels, came to help me, and I left him there with the spirit prince of the kingdom of Persia.

Now I am here to explain what will happen to your people in the future, for this vision concerns a time yet to come.”

And there you have it. Finito.

Be at peace. I am done!

[OBW]

CMW,

I couldn't tell exactly what you were saying here. In referring to Nee, you said:

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

But God would not imho would have used his works to enlighten many people. He would have erased his name from earth. And He would have raised someone else with the same revelation & understanding & even more.

If you meant that God would not have used his works, but would have raise up someone else with the same revelation, then that makes me wonder whether it was something God was doing because I am not seeing that same revelation raised up. Rather, I am seeing people begin to realize the errors hidden in lofty, spiritual-sounding language and slowly backing away.

And some small-time side-show like Lee's "continuation" does not count. They will defend their "revelation" in the face of undeniable evidence against it.

[awareness]

Carol and all,

Jezebel or not the bottom line lesson we should come away with, concerning Nee and Lee, is, everyone is human, And whenever we lift anyone up above being human we're headed for a disappointment ... and it's on us ... even if Nee and Lee sold themselves as more than human, we didn't have to buy it. It's still on us.

So then, from then on, we should never ever lift any one up above being human again.

Unless we're just halfwits.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by OBW

CMW,

I couldn't tell exactly what you were saying here. In referring to Nee, you said:
If you meant that God would not have used his works, but would have raise up someone else with the same revelation, then that makes me wonder whether it was something God was doing because I am not seeing that same revelation raised up. Rather, I am seeing people begin to realize the errors hidden in lofty, spiritual-sounding language and slowly backing away.

And some small-time side-show like Lee's "continuation" does not count. They will defend their "revelation" in the face of undeniable evidence against it.

It was just a thought that ran through my pea brain. Nee wrote a lot of inspiring books. Many people outside the LC cocoon have read his books and been greatly helped in their understanding of the Word and in their walk with Christ.

IF Nee was a fake, how could he have seen & experienced the Word of God like he did and passed on what the Spirit taught him.

BUT not everything he wrote was Spirit inspired. Some of it, maybe a lot ?? was his own interpretation I think. Of course, to the Leeites, his writings were flawless, "as were" Lee's.

A lot was made recently of his closeted sins. It was disheartening to read his dark side. Thus MY Thought of how his writings could have been so widespread if they were not Spirit inspired. But while I am 'working' to have the Mind of Christ, I am far from it !

Of course, NOT and I repeat NOT comparing him to Hitler, God did allow Hitler to commit autrocities against the Jews and many others. So even if many of Nee's books weren't Holy Spirit inspired, but of his own thinking, God allowed it.

I just have a lot of thoughts running through my head at the moment. Sorry for any confusion.

That said,
What I recall so vividly from having read 1 & 2nd Samuel & 1 & 2nd Kings recently was that "Pride" and "Idolotry" were the kings downfall time after time after time.

On the one hand they pleased God. I would get all excited for their Faithfulness. Then it went to their heads and 2-3 chapters later, they displeased the Lord through their disobedience & 'off with their heads!' Ya just don't mess with ALMIGHTY GOD!

Most of the time, their disobedience came from allying themselves with the enemy and or not destroying ALL the idols God commanded them to destroy.

Being and remaining Humble before the Lord & man is a lot harder than one thinks. Reading those books a fresh was very sobering for me.

Hope I clarified myself.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

It was just a thought that ran through my pea brain. Nee wrote a lot of inspiring books. Many people outside the LC cocoon have read his books and been greatly helped in their understanding of the Word and in their walk with Christ.

IF Nee was a fake, how could he have seen & experienced the Word of God like he did and passed on what the Spirit taught him.

BUT not everything he wrote was Spirit inspired.

His teaching on "deputy authority and submission" was insidious. And still is ... unless you believe the Lord wants a human totalitarian state.

His teaching on deputy authority can be used as a basic instruction manual, defining the framework, and basis, for hierarchical arrangement, of any cult.

And it produces NOT "good fruit."

I think Watchman Nee had a way of bedazzling minds about him (that worked on women perchance too). I think the recent claim out here that, "Nee bore good fruit" is a product of being bedazzled by Nee (lingering kool-aid, maybe).

Like a magician's sleight of hand -- but this being sleight of mind -- Nee had you looking at Christ while slipping in deputy authority sight unseen. Cuz he, Nee, became IT. IT. IT. right before your eyes, too dazzled, by then, to be noticed. "Who has bewitched you," comes to mind (Gal. 3:1)

Nice trick ... if the Lord is seeking a group of blind brainless followers (bbf's perchance).

Good fruit? What a joke! Was Witness Lee his "good fruit."

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by awareness

His teaching on "deputy authority and submission" was insidious. And still is ... unless you believe the Lord wants a human totalitarian state.

His teaching on deputy authority can be used as a basic instruction manual, defining the framework, and basis, for hierarchical arrangement, of any cult.

And it produces NOT "good fruit."

I think Watchman Nee had a way of bedazzling minds about him (that worked on women perchance too). I think the recent claim out here that, "Nee bore good fruit" is a product of being bedazzled by Nee (lingering kool-aid, maybe).

Like a magician's sleight of hand -- but this being sleight of mind -- Nee had you looking at Christ while slipping in deputy authority sight unseen. Cuz he, Nee, became IT. IT. IT. right before your eyes, too dazzled, by then, to be noticed. "Who has bewitched you," comes to mind (Gal. 3:1)

Nice trick ... if the Lord is seeking a group of blind brainless followers (bbf's perchance).

Good fruit? What a joke! Was Witness Lee his "good fruit."

To me WNee bore both good fruit and bad fruit. The ecclesiastical system of decentralized local churches he inherited from the Plymouth Brethren was the perfect blueprint China's underground churches needed to survive.

WNee's greatest leaven to me was his teaching on kingdom exclusion, eg 1000 years of outer darkness which gave his followers a false sense of assurance of salvation. I'm of the belief this contributed much to his own yielding to temptation due to no fear of God. What's a 1000 years compared to eternity?

I just can't make this doctrine work from a plain reading of scripture.

So the bible says there are two kinds of resurrections in Daniel 12:2:

1. resurrection of the righteous unto eternal life (1 Thess 4:16)
2. resurrection of the wicked unto the second death (which is the eternal death) and the Great White Throne judgment (Rev 20:12-13)

The caveat is that the resurrection of the wicked happens AFTER the millennial kingdom concludes in the preceding verse 6. The saints going to outer darkness do not participate in this second resurrection because they are still going to inherit everlasting life after 1000 years.

So the only scenario I can see fit here where unfaithful believers can be thrown into outer darkness during the millennial kingdom is

1. first they get raptured or resurrected from the dead (1 Thess 4:16) where the saints will meet the Lord in the air.

2. Then Jesus will somehow divide the faithful and unfaithful saints who will inherit eternal life.

3. He'll then cast the unfaithful saints into outer darkness for 1000 years.

I can see the conversation going as such:

"Congratulations! You've been raptured/resurrected!"
"Ah wait... you've been a bad... Sorry. Have fun in solitary confinement for 1000 years!"
"You look nervous. Relax, you'll have plenty of time to recover from 1000 years of isolation induced mental insanity in the eternal New Jerusalem!"

There's no 1000 year purgatory, there's no middle ground. It's all or nothing.

Luke 3:17
His winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”

Luke 14:34-35
“Salt is good, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is of no use either for the soil or for the manure pile. It is thrown away. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by awareness

His teaching on "deputy authority and submission" was insidious. And still is ... unless you believe the Lord wants a human totalitarian state.

His teaching on deputy authority can be used as a basic instruction manual, defining the framework, and basis, for hierarchical arrangement, of any cult.

And it produces NOT "good fruit."

I think Watchman Nee had a way of bedazzling minds about him (that worked on wome perchance too). I think the recent claim out here that, "Nee bore good fruit" is a product of being bedazzled by Nee (lingering kool-aid, maybe).

Perhaps...I was not defending him. I never read an entire book he wrote or an entire book Lee wrote. I read a chapter here & there.

I wonder if anyone has ever read all their works????

What I do know is many of the things I learned in the LC, such as spirit, soul & body had been explained by other saints long before them. But I was made to believe the revelation came to Nee & Lee. When it hadn't.

As for the deputy authority stuff.... I was long gone when that came out.. I only heard about it here on the forums. Never really understood what all that meant thankfully!

[OBW]

I will make one brief comment about Nee. The writings that most Christians have seen are the strictly "inner life" group, therefore not clearly insidious. But I have begun to see that so much of even what we have thought was good, spiritual stuff was mostly just junk phrased in a way that sounded too spiritual to be what we now see that it was.

Yes, God can use all kinds of things to help us. Whatever we go through, he uses it. War, famine, cancer, loss of loved ones, strife, bankruptcy, and on and on. We don't continue to gush over the problems that went on when God was helping us — just the help we got.

While it may seem that Nee's "good" stuff was directly a help, I think it may be that God managed to help us do that "eat the meat, not the feathers and bones" thing. Knowing what I know now, I would not subject myself to such an unprepared meal. I want my chicken skinless and boneless. And if I have to wring the thing's neck myself, I don't want to be fooled into believing that it is Chicken Cacciatore.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by OBW

I will make one brief comment about Nee. The writings that most Christians have seen are the strictly "inner life" group, therefore not clearly insidious. But I have begun to see that so much of even what we have thought was good, spiritual stuff was mostly just junk phrased in a way that sounded too spiritual to be what we now see that it was.

Yes, God can use all kinds of things to help us. Whatever we go through, he uses it. War, famine, cancer, loss of loved ones, strife, bankruptcy, and on and on. We don't continue to gush over the problems that went on when God was helping us — just the help we got.

While it may seem that Nee's "good" stuff was directly a help, I think it may be that God managed to help us do that "eat the meat, not the feathers and bones" thing. Knowing what I know now, I would not subject myself to such an unprepared meal. I want my chicken skinless and boneless. And if I have to wring the thing's neck myself, I don't want to be fooled into believing that it is Chicken Cacciatore.

Well I was much "smarter" than CMW. I don't know if I read everything Nee wrote, but I read a bunch. And Lee too, while I was in the LC. I didn't read all of Lee cuz I quit reading both when I left the LRC.

Turns out tho, CMW was smarter than me. She didn't read much of anything by both. She got her Nee and Lee meals by osmosis, while being in the LRC.

That turned out, methinks now, to be better than my "smart" way.

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

....Thus MY Thought of how his (Watchman Nee's) writings could have been so widespread if they were not Spirit inspired.

According to the LDS website, as of March 2011, 150 million copies of the Book of Mormon had been printed. 150 million. How many copies of Nee's "Spiritual Man" have been printed, in comparison?

According to the LDS, they boast over 14 million members worldwide. How many members does the "Local Church" in any one of it's fractious divisions boast? Even if you put them all together (Titus Chu's group, LSM's group, Dong yu Lan's group, the independents, the Little Flock of Nee's in China), do you think they'd all come to so high a number? And those groups wouldn't even recognize eachother as legitimate, even though we can look at their parentage and their doctrine and call them branches of the same tree...

My point is, false doctrine isn't hampered at all in it's spread across the earth. The truth of a movement can't be gauged by it's popularity. Look at Islam: If you read it's history, you can see Islam too is a "cult" that came out of Christianity.

The narrow way is just that, and few there are who will find it.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

The truth of a movement can't be gauged by it's popularity.

Yet the fact that so many flocked to Witness Lee was used as proof that Lee was speaking for God. I know it was a factor for me; as proof that I was in God's present move on the earth.

The fact of the matter is that, it was we, we, we, that made Lee think he was the MOTA. We were living proof.

And that brings me back to, the main lesson we should come away with from the local church is: that, we shouldn't ever lift some one up above being human. Don't ever do that again.

At least we can now kick that Jezebel in the teeth.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

According to the LDS website, as of March 2011, 150 million copies of the Book of Mormon had been printed. 150 million. How many copies of Nee's "Spiritual Man" have been printed, in comparison?

According to the LDS, they boast over 14 million members worldwide. How many members does the "Local Church" in any one of it's fractious divisions boast?

My point is, false doctrine isn't hampered at all in it's spread across the earth. The truth of a movement can't be gauged by it's popularity. Look at Islam: If you read it's history, you can see Islam too is a "cult" that came out of Christianity.

The narrow way is just that, and few there are who will find it.

You make excellent, valid points! Thanks. I think somewhere in the back of my pea brain, I knew that!!

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by awareness

Well I was much "smarter" than CMW.

You were ???

I don't know if I read everything Nee wrote, but I read a bunch. And Lee too, while I was in the LC. I didn't read all of Lee cuz I quit reading both when I left the LRC.

When I got saved, the saints gave me a KJ NT. So for a month at least, I read the NT. I would come home (the sisters house) from work & share with them what the Lord showed me in the Bible.

I remember one of the first scriptures, the HS truly gave me personally was 1 Corinthians 10:13

There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to bear it.

Between reading my bible, praying, meetings, fellowship, life studies and tests, trials & tribulations (living w/ "saints" ain't easy you know!) I did not have time to read Lee's books. I had my hands full!

Turns out tho, CMW was smarter than me. She didn't read much of anything by both. She got her Nee and Lee meals by osmosis, while being in the LRC.

That turned out, me thinks now, to be better than my "smart" way.

WOO hoo! That's the way uh-huh, uh huh I like it. UH HUH, UH HUH. That's the way uh HUH I like it. UH HUH. UH HUH.