The Jezebel spirit in the LSM

[OBW]

CMW,

I couldn't tell exactly what you were saying here. In referring to Nee, you said:

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

But God would not imho would have used his works to enlighten many people. He would have erased his name from earth. And He would have raised someone else with the same revelation & understanding & even more.

If you meant that God would not have used his works, but would have raise up someone else with the same revelation, then that makes me wonder whether it was something God was doing because I am not seeing that same revelation raised up. Rather, I am seeing people begin to realize the errors hidden in lofty, spiritual-sounding language and slowly backing away.

And some small-time side-show like Lee's "continuation" does not count. They will defend their "revelation" in the face of undeniable evidence against it.

[awareness]

Carol and all,

Jezebel or not the bottom line lesson we should come away with, concerning Nee and Lee, is, everyone is human, And whenever we lift anyone up above being human we're headed for a disappointment ... and it's on us ... even if Nee and Lee sold themselves as more than human, we didn't have to buy it. It's still on us.

So then, from then on, we should never ever lift any one up above being human again.

Unless we're just halfwits.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by OBW

CMW,

I couldn't tell exactly what you were saying here. In referring to Nee, you said:
If you meant that God would not have used his works, but would have raise up someone else with the same revelation, then that makes me wonder whether it was something God was doing because I am not seeing that same revelation raised up. Rather, I am seeing people begin to realize the errors hidden in lofty, spiritual-sounding language and slowly backing away.

And some small-time side-show like Lee's "continuation" does not count. They will defend their "revelation" in the face of undeniable evidence against it.

It was just a thought that ran through my pea brain. Nee wrote a lot of inspiring books. Many people outside the LC cocoon have read his books and been greatly helped in their understanding of the Word and in their walk with Christ.

IF Nee was a fake, how could he have seen & experienced the Word of God like he did and passed on what the Spirit taught him.

BUT not everything he wrote was Spirit inspired. Some of it, maybe a lot ?? was his own interpretation I think. Of course, to the Leeites, his writings were flawless, "as were" Lee's.

A lot was made recently of his closeted sins. It was disheartening to read his dark side. Thus MY Thought of how his writings could have been so widespread if they were not Spirit inspired. But while I am 'working' to have the Mind of Christ, I am far from it !

Of course, NOT and I repeat NOT comparing him to Hitler, God did allow Hitler to commit autrocities against the Jews and many others. So even if many of Nee's books weren't Holy Spirit inspired, but of his own thinking, God allowed it.

I just have a lot of thoughts running through my head at the moment. Sorry for any confusion.

That said,
What I recall so vividly from having read 1 & 2nd Samuel & 1 & 2nd Kings recently was that "Pride" and "Idolotry" were the kings downfall time after time after time.

On the one hand they pleased God. I would get all excited for their Faithfulness. Then it went to their heads and 2-3 chapters later, they displeased the Lord through their disobedience & 'off with their heads!' Ya just don't mess with ALMIGHTY GOD!

Most of the time, their disobedience came from allying themselves with the enemy and or not destroying ALL the idols God commanded them to destroy.

Being and remaining Humble before the Lord & man is a lot harder than one thinks. Reading those books a fresh was very sobering for me.

Hope I clarified myself.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

It was just a thought that ran through my pea brain. Nee wrote a lot of inspiring books. Many people outside the LC cocoon have read his books and been greatly helped in their understanding of the Word and in their walk with Christ.

IF Nee was a fake, how could he have seen & experienced the Word of God like he did and passed on what the Spirit taught him.

BUT not everything he wrote was Spirit inspired.

His teaching on "deputy authority and submission" was insidious. And still is ... unless you believe the Lord wants a human totalitarian state.

His teaching on deputy authority can be used as a basic instruction manual, defining the framework, and basis, for hierarchical arrangement, of any cult.

And it produces NOT "good fruit."

I think Watchman Nee had a way of bedazzling minds about him (that worked on women perchance too). I think the recent claim out here that, "Nee bore good fruit" is a product of being bedazzled by Nee (lingering kool-aid, maybe).

Like a magician's sleight of hand -- but this being sleight of mind -- Nee had you looking at Christ while slipping in deputy authority sight unseen. Cuz he, Nee, became IT. IT. IT. right before your eyes, too dazzled, by then, to be noticed. "Who has bewitched you," comes to mind (Gal. 3:1)

Nice trick ... if the Lord is seeking a group of blind brainless followers (bbf's perchance).

Good fruit? What a joke! Was Witness Lee his "good fruit."

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by awareness

His teaching on "deputy authority and submission" was insidious. And still is ... unless you believe the Lord wants a human totalitarian state.

His teaching on deputy authority can be used as a basic instruction manual, defining the framework, and basis, for hierarchical arrangement, of any cult.

And it produces NOT "good fruit."

I think Watchman Nee had a way of bedazzling minds about him (that worked on women perchance too). I think the recent claim out here that, "Nee bore good fruit" is a product of being bedazzled by Nee (lingering kool-aid, maybe).

Like a magician's sleight of hand -- but this being sleight of mind -- Nee had you looking at Christ while slipping in deputy authority sight unseen. Cuz he, Nee, became IT. IT. IT. right before your eyes, too dazzled, by then, to be noticed. "Who has bewitched you," comes to mind (Gal. 3:1)

Nice trick ... if the Lord is seeking a group of blind brainless followers (bbf's perchance).

Good fruit? What a joke! Was Witness Lee his "good fruit."

To me WNee bore both good fruit and bad fruit. The ecclesiastical system of decentralized local churches he inherited from the Plymouth Brethren was the perfect blueprint China's underground churches needed to survive.

WNee's greatest leaven to me was his teaching on kingdom exclusion, eg 1000 years of outer darkness which gave his followers a false sense of assurance of salvation. I'm of the belief this contributed much to his own yielding to temptation due to no fear of God. What's a 1000 years compared to eternity?

I just can't make this doctrine work from a plain reading of scripture.

So the bible says there are two kinds of resurrections in Daniel 12:2:

1. resurrection of the righteous unto eternal life (1 Thess 4:16)
2. resurrection of the wicked unto the second death (which is the eternal death) and the Great White Throne judgment (Rev 20:12-13)

The caveat is that the resurrection of the wicked happens AFTER the millennial kingdom concludes in the preceding verse 6. The saints going to outer darkness do not participate in this second resurrection because they are still going to inherit everlasting life after 1000 years.

So the only scenario I can see fit here where unfaithful believers can be thrown into outer darkness during the millennial kingdom is

1. first they get raptured or resurrected from the dead (1 Thess 4:16) where the saints will meet the Lord in the air.

2. Then Jesus will somehow divide the faithful and unfaithful saints who will inherit eternal life.

3. He'll then cast the unfaithful saints into outer darkness for 1000 years.

I can see the conversation going as such:

"Congratulations! You've been raptured/resurrected!"
"Ah wait... you've been a bad... Sorry. Have fun in solitary confinement for 1000 years!"
"You look nervous. Relax, you'll have plenty of time to recover from 1000 years of isolation induced mental insanity in the eternal New Jerusalem!"

There's no 1000 year purgatory, there's no middle ground. It's all or nothing.

Luke 3:17
His winnowing fork is in his hand, to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”

Luke 14:34-35
“Salt is good, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is of no use either for the soil or for the manure pile. It is thrown away. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by awareness

His teaching on "deputy authority and submission" was insidious. And still is ... unless you believe the Lord wants a human totalitarian state.

His teaching on deputy authority can be used as a basic instruction manual, defining the framework, and basis, for hierarchical arrangement, of any cult.

And it produces NOT "good fruit."

I think Watchman Nee had a way of bedazzling minds about him (that worked on wome perchance too). I think the recent claim out here that, "Nee bore good fruit" is a product of being bedazzled by Nee (lingering kool-aid, maybe).

Perhaps...I was not defending him. I never read an entire book he wrote or an entire book Lee wrote. I read a chapter here & there.

I wonder if anyone has ever read all their works????

What I do know is many of the things I learned in the LC, such as spirit, soul & body had been explained by other saints long before them. But I was made to believe the revelation came to Nee & Lee. When it hadn't.

As for the deputy authority stuff.... I was long gone when that came out.. I only heard about it here on the forums. Never really understood what all that meant thankfully!

[OBW]

I will make one brief comment about Nee. The writings that most Christians have seen are the strictly "inner life" group, therefore not clearly insidious. But I have begun to see that so much of even what we have thought was good, spiritual stuff was mostly just junk phrased in a way that sounded too spiritual to be what we now see that it was.

Yes, God can use all kinds of things to help us. Whatever we go through, he uses it. War, famine, cancer, loss of loved ones, strife, bankruptcy, and on and on. We don't continue to gush over the problems that went on when God was helping us — just the help we got.

While it may seem that Nee's "good" stuff was directly a help, I think it may be that God managed to help us do that "eat the meat, not the feathers and bones" thing. Knowing what I know now, I would not subject myself to such an unprepared meal. I want my chicken skinless and boneless. And if I have to wring the thing's neck myself, I don't want to be fooled into believing that it is Chicken Cacciatore.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by OBW

I will make one brief comment about Nee. The writings that most Christians have seen are the strictly "inner life" group, therefore not clearly insidious. But I have begun to see that so much of even what we have thought was good, spiritual stuff was mostly just junk phrased in a way that sounded too spiritual to be what we now see that it was.

Yes, God can use all kinds of things to help us. Whatever we go through, he uses it. War, famine, cancer, loss of loved ones, strife, bankruptcy, and on and on. We don't continue to gush over the problems that went on when God was helping us — just the help we got.

While it may seem that Nee's "good" stuff was directly a help, I think it may be that God managed to help us do that "eat the meat, not the feathers and bones" thing. Knowing what I know now, I would not subject myself to such an unprepared meal. I want my chicken skinless and boneless. And if I have to wring the thing's neck myself, I don't want to be fooled into believing that it is Chicken Cacciatore.

Well I was much "smarter" than CMW. I don't know if I read everything Nee wrote, but I read a bunch. And Lee too, while I was in the LC. I didn't read all of Lee cuz I quit reading both when I left the LRC.

Turns out tho, CMW was smarter than me. She didn't read much of anything by both. She got her Nee and Lee meals by osmosis, while being in the LRC.

That turned out, methinks now, to be better than my "smart" way.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by awareness

Well I was much "smarter" than CMW.

You were ???

I don't know if I read everything Nee wrote, but I read a bunch. And Lee too, while I was in the LC. I didn't read all of Lee cuz I quit reading both when I left the LRC.

When I got saved, the saints gave me a KJ NT. So for a month at least, I read the NT. I would come home (the sisters house) from work & share with them what the Lord showed me in the Bible.

I remember one of the first scriptures, the HS truly gave me personally was 1 Corinthians 10:13

There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to bear it.

Between reading my bible, praying, meetings, fellowship, life studies and tests, trials & tribulations (living w/ "saints" ain't easy you know!) I did not have time to read Lee's books. I had my hands full!

Turns out tho, CMW was smarter than me. She didn't read much of anything by both. She got her Nee and Lee meals by osmosis, while being in the LRC.

That turned out, me thinks now, to be better than my "smart" way.

WOO hoo! That's the way uh-huh, uh huh I like it. UH HUH, UH HUH. That's the way uh HUH I like it. UH HUH. UH HUH.

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

....Thus MY Thought of how his (Watchman Nee's) writings could have been so widespread if they were not Spirit inspired.

According to the LDS website, as of March 2011, 150 million copies of the Book of Mormon had been printed. 150 million. How many copies of Nee's "Spiritual Man" have been printed, in comparison?

According to the LDS, they boast over 14 million members worldwide. How many members does the "Local Church" in any one of it's fractious divisions boast? Even if you put them all together (Titus Chu's group, LSM's group, Dong yu Lan's group, the independents, the Little Flock of Nee's in China), do you think they'd all come to so high a number? And those groups wouldn't even recognize eachother as legitimate, even though we can look at their parentage and their doctrine and call them branches of the same tree...

My point is, false doctrine isn't hampered at all in it's spread across the earth. The truth of a movement can't be gauged by it's popularity. Look at Islam: If you read it's history, you can see Islam too is a "cult" that came out of Christianity.

The narrow way is just that, and few there are who will find it.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

The truth of a movement can't be gauged by it's popularity.

Yet the fact that so many flocked to Witness Lee was used as proof that Lee was speaking for God. I know it was a factor for me; as proof that I was in God's present move on the earth.

The fact of the matter is that, it was we, we, we, that made Lee think he was the MOTA. We were living proof.

And that brings me back to, the main lesson we should come away with from the local church is: that, we shouldn't ever lift some one up above being human. Don't ever do that again.

At least we can now kick that Jezebel in the teeth.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

According to the LDS website, as of March 2011, 150 million copies of the Book of Mormon had been printed. 150 million. How many copies of Nee's "Spiritual Man" have been printed, in comparison?

According to the LDS, they boast over 14 million members worldwide. How many members does the "Local Church" in any one of it's fractious divisions boast?

My point is, false doctrine isn't hampered at all in it's spread across the earth. The truth of a movement can't be gauged by it's popularity. Look at Islam: If you read it's history, you can see Islam too is a "cult" that came out of Christianity.

The narrow way is just that, and few there are who will find it.

You make excellent, valid points! Thanks. I think somewhere in the back of my pea brain, I knew that!!