The Jezebel spirit in the LSM

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Jon Hamilton

Obviously, the literal person of Jezebel was not present in Thyatira. The reference is a prophetic parallel. Just as John the Baptist was "Elijah" because he came in the spirit and power of Elijah, this person or influence in Thyatira was under the spiritual control of the same demonic influences that controlled Jezebel of old.

This explanation of Jezebel in Revelation strikes me as a stretch too far to swallow. The mostly likely explanation is that this was a complete different Jezebel.

The reason this is a stretch, and bothersome to me, is that Hamilton's conjecture presupposes a spirit that gets passed on down the line, a thousand years later. Or maybe a eternal Jezebel spirit flitting and flighting around, jumping into people, all over the place, from generation to generation.

Moreover, if such a spirit of Jezebel is entering into and possessing people, how can God hold the possessed accountable at the judgment seat? After all it's Jezebel doing the bad things. The possessed person is being victimized by a spirit much more powerful than the possessed person could ever dream of being.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by awareness

This explanation of Jezebel in Revelation strikes me as a stretch too far to swallow. The mostly likely explanation is that this was a complete different Jezebel.

The reason this is a stretch, and bothersome to me, is that Hamilton's conjecture presupposes a spirit that gets passed on down the line, a thousand years later. Or maybe a eternal Jezebel spirit flitting and flighting around, jumping into people, all over the place, from generation to generation.

It's possible she's a demonic principality in which case she'd have many other fallen angels or demons under her command.

Moreover, if such a spirit of Jezebel is entering into and possessing people, how can God hold the possessed accountable at the judgment seat? After all it's Jezebel doing the bad things. The possessed person is being victimized by a spirit much more powerful than the possessed person could ever dream of being.

You can't become possessed by a spirit unless you give it authority either by giving it explicit permission or through obeying its temptations. Paul said in Romans 6:16 that we are slaves of the one we obey, in other words we become mastered by whatever we obey. God respects authority and that's why Satan was handed man's God given dominion after Adam listened to the serpent by taking fruit of that other tree. The implication is also that it's very important we make Jesus our master by obeying the Lord and not anything else because Christ says we can only serve one master. If we become mastered by the things of the world, we don't have a legal right to be a part of the Messiah's coming kingdom but we'll be destroyed along with Satan's kingdom when Jesus comes to take his throne here on earth. (Jesus says either you're for me or against me!) Also the eternal fate of the servant cannot exceed that of the master because Jesus taught that a servant is not greater than the master (think of who Jesus says follows Satan to the lake of fire in Matthew).

This has nothing to do with works because we can make Jesus our Lord simply by giving our whole heart to him through faith. We ultimately end up serving the one who has our heart.

Paul tells us to hold every thought captive to the obedient of Christ. I've been practicing this in my mind. Whenever I get a fleshly thought I rebuke it in the name of Jesus. This has done wonders for my spiritual and emotional health, and I rarely get these thoughts anymore. I can testify that it's possible to not lust after a woman in your mind almost indefinitely which is something I never thought was never possible for a man to do. When I see an attractive woman now, the temptation to lust simply doesn't materialize in my head believe it or not and if it does I rebuke it immediately. The less authority you give by not yielding to the desire of your flesh, the less you are susceptible to it. (The difference from asceticism is as Christians we can develop an enormous spiritual hunger from feeding our spirit through prayer, reading bible and doing God's will by loving God and neighbor by which we experience God's presence which is more satisfying than anything we can attain in the flesh - for me to die is gain, to live is Christ - Phil 1:21)

The key was to realize that many of the thoughts we get to sin do not necessarily come from our person but are fiery darts thrown by the enemy (Eph 6:16). With this wisdom, you can quickly disassociate thoughts like this from your identity and by attributing it to the enemy become better equipped to obey your spirit instead which leads to practicing righteousness which leads to holiness which leads to eternal life (Romans 6). In answer to my prayer for God to increase my humility I recently realized I haven't been filtering out temptations leading to spiritual pride which I need to start doing.

If you give any credibility to NDE experiences, here's one by a baptist minister named Howard Pittman who saw demons while he was dead during his NDE which added a lot to my understanding of the spiritual realm:

http://www.near-death.com/forum/nde/000/89.html

Here's a pastor's experience with demonic attack when he was young where he made the revelation that the evil thoughts he had that were driving him crazy were not his and started taking the thoughts captive in obedience to Christ by which he was finally delivered from a spiraling depression that almost ended in suicide:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tvgPX73Ooc

[awareness]

Originally Posted by bearbear

It's possible she's a demonic principality in which case she'd have many other fallen angels or demons under her command.

So let me get this straight. This powerful demon that possessed Jezebel in the Old Testament, and thereby got it's name, came forth a thousand yrs later, to possess the prophetess Jezebel at Thyatira, and then, 2 thousand yrs later possessed Watchman Nee, who then transferred this powerful spirit demon to Witness Lee, both claiming to give their all for Christ?

WOW! The spirit world is a crazy woo-woo world. Who can know it?

And thanks for the personal testimony bearbear ... and the videos. You're one busy dude ... and just spilling over with info.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by awareness

So let me get this straight. This powerful demon that possessed Jezebel in the Old Testament, and thereby got it's name, came forth a thousand yrs later, to possess the prophetess Jezebel at Thyatira, and then, 2 thousand yrs later possessed Watchman Nee, who then transferred this powerful spirit demon to Witness Lee, both claiming to give their all for Christ?

WOW! The spirit world is a crazy woo-woo world. Who can know it?

And thanks for the personal testimony bearbear ... and the videos. You're one busy dude ... and just spilling over with info.

I am currently on vacation so I got plenty of time Actually I feel a huge burden lift off me when I put my thoughts into writing so I do quite enjoy it as I do when I speak IRL.

Hmm I certainly don't think Watchman Nee was a fake Christian. He bore some really good fruit. If the reports of him are true, I'm sure he had come to full repentance after 20 years in prison and I'd be surprised if he wasn't in heaven right now telling some pretty crazy stories. I'm not sure of the theological implications of a demon possessing versus being limited to attacking a Spirit-filled born again Christian- perhaps others can expound on this.

"Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a harmful spirit from the LORD tormented him." - 1 Samuel 16:14

What comes to mind is Saul was once filled with the Spirit of God after his anointing. However it says that the Spirit of God left him before the evil spirits came. So perhaps you can grieve the Holy Spirit to a degree that he actually leaves you (the wind blows where it wills John 3:8), leaving room for demonic possession. This is just something I thought of immediately and have not seriously dwelt on. I believe the NT teaches that you can grieve the Holy Spirit enough for him to leave you, but these people never belonged to God in the first place:

Hebrews 6
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Hmm I certainly don't think Watchman Nee was a fake Christian. He bore some really good fruit. If the reports of him are true, I'm sure he had come to full repentance after 20 years in prison and I'd be surprised if he wasn't in heaven right now telling some pretty crazy stories. I'm not sure of the theological implications of a demon possessing versus being limited to attacking a Spirit-filled born again Christian- perhaps others can expound on this.

Well don't ask me. I certainly can't claim to understand the spirit world.

As to Nee, I too got the feeling he came to repentance before he passed.

But CMW says, concerning the Jezebel spirit:

"The reason I brought this thread up is so the LSMrs lurking might learn to think outside the box. It was also a possible answer to the question as to how people got sucked in by Lee's teachings & can't break loose from the controlling 'spirit'."

In other words, Nee and Lee produced a bewitching (Gal. 3:1) that exerts a kind of mind control over their followers.

Talk about tasting the heavenly gift. Looking back on my LC days I can still taste that controlling spirit.

And calling it Jezebel is fine with me. A Rose by any other name ... smells the same ...

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by awareness

Well don't ask me. I certainly can't claim to understand the spirit world.

You crack me up Harold! I can just hear you say "Well don't ask me! I certainly can't claim to understand the spirit world. "

As to Nee, I too got the feeling he came to repentance before he passed.

Well if being in prison all those years didn't get him to reflect, regret and repent, I guess nothing would! And what a hard heart he would have had. But God would not imho would have used his works to enlighten many people. He would have erased his name from earth. And He would have raised someone else with the same revelation & understanding & even more.

So I too am of the consensus he repented before his passing. Behold. God makes all things new and our sins, He remembers no more.

But CMW says, concerning the Jezebel spirit:

And calling it Jezebel is fine with me. A Rose by any other name ... smells the same ...

Righto amigo. One thing I want to clear up is that be it 'Jezebel' or whatever entity you want to call it, is a religious spirit. Religious spirits are controlling & manipulative evil beings. The LORD'S SPIRIT is LIFE, PEACE and LOVE. His SPIRIT leads us in the path of Righteousness. Righteousness being Christ Jesus. The LORD restores our soul and leads us (to Christ Jesus).

It is my opinion that some early converted Hebrews who could not walk in the Spirit & fell back into Judaism were the ones who founded the RCC. In the mass of the RCC, there is the constant 'sacrificial death of the cross'. (Having been raised Catholic myself, I have some spiritual discernment as the catechism of the RCC was embedded in me - but the Blood of Jesus & the Spirit of LIFE & LOVE set me free. )

So here is what Hebrews 10:1 says:

For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near.

That describes the Catholic mass pretty much in a nutshell.

One thing that impressed me (not necessarily in a positive way but in an observant way) about the priestly rituals of the Catholic mass was the OT rituals: the altar, the candles for incense, the tabernacle at the altar, even the "Holy of Holies" is inside the tabernacle for that is where the 'host' (Christ) resides.

The priests all the way to the Pope wear the attire while performing the mass much like the garments worn by the priests of the OT.

(to be continued as not to make this post longer than it is.)

[countmeworthy]

Now Thyatira in Revelation2 represents the RCC. Not only did Nee/Lee see this but many, many students of the bible over the centuries have. (]Not having any spiritual background when I got saved, when reading the Orthodoxy of the church & listening to messages on the 7 churches while in the LC, my, my did my eyes open up. Sure they were opened up through Nee & Lee BUT they were NOT the FIRST people who knew that Thyatira represented the RCC. I however was led to believe they were. For Lee was 'God's oracle on the earth'. "No one had his revelation & insight.

So back to topic... back in 1 kings, when Jezebel appears, she is a religious person. She worshiped a lot of pagan gods. The more religious she became (she even fasted) the more evil she became.

Now who did she marry? Ahab. A king of Israel whom she weakened severely. What does Satan try to the Body of Christ? The same thing.

She controlled Ahab and put so much fear into Elijah God's prophet, he wanted the Lord to kill him. If you all haven't read 1 & 2 Samuel and 1 & 2 kings, in a while, you should revisit those books. They are real eye openers.

One thing that was a recurring theme in the book of kings was that the most of the kings of Israel and there were MANY would please the Lord to a point. They would destroy a lot of pagan idols and kill God's enemies but almost all of them had trouble killing the biggest idol which I think was Baal. Can't remember for sure.

Anyway...
That Thyatira tolerates Jezebel in Revelation 2 who teaches and "leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols" convinces me personally that the RCC has that 'spirit' of the wicked, evil, religious, idolotrous woman described in 1 kings.

Remember Jezebel was exceedingly sexually immoral, was idolatrous & weakened Ahab her husband and scared the pallooten out of Elijah.

So.. based on my experience having been raised Catholics & knowing tons of Catholics, here is my observation:

Catholics by & large are afraid to leave the 'mother' church. Many in fact believe that those who are in denominations especially Lutherans, Episcopalians & Anglicans (whose church services are very similar to the mass) will all return to the Catholic church.

Catholics are not afraid to sin. But are afraid to leave the RCC.

-------------------
(to be continued)

[OBW]

CMW,

I couldn't tell exactly what you were saying here. In referring to Nee, you said:

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

But God would not imho would have used his works to enlighten many people. He would have erased his name from earth. And He would have raised someone else with the same revelation & understanding & even more.

If you meant that God would not have used his works, but would have raise up someone else with the same revelation, then that makes me wonder whether it was something God was doing because I am not seeing that same revelation raised up. Rather, I am seeing people begin to realize the errors hidden in lofty, spiritual-sounding language and slowly backing away.

And some small-time side-show like Lee's "continuation" does not count. They will defend their "revelation" in the face of undeniable evidence against it.