The LCS Factor

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by OBW

This thread started as an opportunity to demonstrate the baskets full of bad fruit. To look at the things that were done wrong that lead to that bad fruit. But we have turned to labels. And by turning to those labels, we have put the whole problem effectively on the leadership and not on the individual. Why? Because it is quite difficult to say that every LC member who has had a child end out in serious sin, or who failed in marriage, was guilty of idolatry unless you broaden the term to such an extent that you and I get swept in right now in our current conditions.

OBW, I think you are starting to get the point. What you said in the bolded sentence is exactly what God portrays in the Word. We are going one step beyond the general applicability of idolatry to everyone and pointing towards a system of idolatry that was constructed and implemented that has brought quite a few into a unique and painful form of bondage to a stronger form of idolatry.

In fact, let me summarize it this way. The entire Northern Kingdom of Israel was so steeped in idolatry that the Lord says this:

Hos 4:15-19
Though thou, Israel, play the harlot, yet let not Judah offend; and come not ye unto Gilgal, neither go ye up to Beth-aven, nor swear, The LORD liveth. (16) For Israel slideth back as a backsliding heifer: now the LORD will feed them as a lamb in a large place. (17) Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone. (18) Their drink is sour: they have committed whoredom continually: her rulers with shame do love, Give ye. (19) The wind hath bound her up in her wings, and they shall be ashamed because of their sacrifices.

Note: "Israel" here is only the Northern Kingdom and "Ephraim" is synonomous with Israel in this context with an additional pointer towards the responsible leadership of the Northern Kingdom. "Judah" is the Southern Kingdom. Judah was not a great deal better off, but they were preserved for the sake of the Lord and His servant David.

The Northern Kingdom has a special applicability to us and so my use of them as the typological example is in line with the intent and substance of the Word.

If you will notice in my posts, I've painted myself into the picture of idolatry and not out of it. Why? Because God painted me into it.

I don't condemn myself, nor do I condemn others, but I do condemn my own idolatry. Thank God that He is merciful and full of lovingkindness for me!

Matt

P.S. I have a more thorough response to Hope. His verses have introduced a logical error from a typological point of view. His warning is valid, but only under some key assumptions about the context which I will point out (probably this evening).

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Matt

OBW, I think you are starting to get the point. What you said in the bolded sentence is exactly what God portrays in the Word. We are going one step beyond the general applicability of idolatry to everyone and pointing towards a system of idolatry that was constructed and implemented that has brought quite a few into a unique and painful form of bondage to a stronger form of idolatry.

And you completely missed the point.

At this point, other than to look back at my most recent post (to Nell), there is not much left to say except "whatever." This is a witch hunt. Some claim of finding an underlying thread of idolatry is nothing short of a witch hunt. The verse you quoted says nothing to support the current efforts. If anything, it would seem to be an effort to take the misdeeds of some who may have honestly been involved in idolatry and paint everyone else with it.

And if you say you have painted yourself into it, then why worry about the LC? You've got more important things to deal with than worrying about the LC's idolatry if you have it yourself. Starting a bonfire for them does not reduce your sin.

Don't misunderstand. I am not saying you are sinning. But if the level of idolatry that we have to move down to is so broad that we all are included, then why point a finger at anyone else? There has to be some less general definition at which we stop. Once we return toward the basic standard, then it cannot simply be broadcast onto everyone in the LC. Stick with one definition for all purposes. Otherwise it is equivocation.

As I told Nell, you are wasting your very worthwhile energies on this thread, at least as it is currently headed. You have not been a participant anywhere else lately. This discussion is taking on more heat from the rest of us "outsiders" than it is from the LC faithful, not that many of them actually participate here. It looks as if about three or four people are determined to have this hearing despite almost everyone else calling it into question. Doesn't that say something?

[Peter Debelak]

I agree with the concern expressed here over defining the scope of the definition of idolatry. As I mentioned in a previous post, there can be a weak claim and a strong claim of idolatry as it pertained to the LC - and its imporant to be clear about which claim is being made here (so far, it has gone back and forth):

Idolatry seems to me to be one of the most insidious of the sins which the law speaks to. If you look at all the other commandments, its pretty obvious that we've violated them if we get pinned down on our actions. Idolatry, however, is not so clear to us. Why? Because, it seems, that idolizing something is so often done in the service of our "faith". We do it because we think it is what we should do. We perceive our faith to be "better" because of the presence of the idol (though we don't recognize it as such).

Each and every one of us (with LC backgrounds or not), should be in a constant struggle to guard against the enticing of idols - because it is so easy for something other than God to become that thing we rely on and turn to. This matter should convict us all.

But this broad definition of idolatry, it seems to me, is not exactly what's being discussed here. Because, in the LC, there was a much clearer potential idol than the subtle type ones which entice every Christian every day: Witness Lee and "the ministry." Even "the recovery."

So it is not the weak claim being made here - i.e. that every Christian, including those in the LC, allow subtle idols into their hearts, which replace their reliance on God. Rather, it is the strong claim being made her, it seems, that everyone in the LC made Witness Lee and "the ministry" their "idol" - which they placed higher, in a conscious and systematic way, than God.

I think both the strong and weak claim are important to pursue, but it should be clear in each discussion which claim is being made - it can otherwise lead to confusion and unnecessary defensiveness.

Peter