The LCS Factor

[Hope]

Dear Posters,

Since this is the discussion about Spiritual Abuse and has been filled with many charges, I would like to introduce a few key passages for consideration.

I asked the following question regarding sharing issues that counterbalanced pure spiritual abuse, “By the way does it cut both ways? I have been accused of trying to shut people down. But then, is anyone trying to shut down any positive evidence or positive experience while in the local church at …

A poster replied,

"No, I don't think it cuts both ways on this thread. We reacted to talk about positive things because it is inappropriate on this thread. For example, no matter how good a family is or how many positive things there are about it, when child molestation is discovered, it is not appropriate for family members to want to somehow balance that bad by pointing out the good things about the family.

Child molestation, wow!!!

In parallel thinking, it also would seem that one bad family is enough to label the whole bunch. Therefore should all memory of anything of Christ be obliterated? Could it be that the use of such explosive language as “child molestation” would have the effect of wiping out any testimony that was there? Could it be that contending that four churches with all their elders present was for the purpose of completely discrediting all leadership and all churches in the Texas area?

I have not failed to point out flaws in Witness Lee, the local churches, the Living Stream Ministry and the Blended Brothers. If I continue to write my history, more will be forth coming. But here is a warning from the Old Testament for out consideration. Jerusalem was defeated because of their idolatry and unfaithfulness. Jeremiah prophesied that it would happen but when it did he wept over the city and the people. On the other hand, the nation of Edom gloated and wanted to destroy it to its foundation and eliminate all memory of Jerusalem. God’s judgment of His people is for their restoration not for their utter destruction. Note in the following passage that Babylon went too far in carrying out the Lord’s judgment on Jerusalem.

Psalms 137:7-9, Remember, O LORD, against the sons of Edom the day of Jerusalem, who said, "Raze it, raze it, to its very foundation." O daughter of Babylon, you devastated one, how blessed will be the one who repays you with the recompense with which you have repaid us. How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones against the rock.

Lam 4:21-22, Rejoice and be glad, O daughter of Edom, who dwells in the land of Uz; but the cup will come around to you as well, you will become drunk and make yourself naked. The punishment of your iniquity has been completed, O daughter of Zion; He will exile you no longer. But He will punish your iniquity, O daughter of Edom; He will expose your sins!

Ezek 25:12-14, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Because Edom has acted against the house of Judah by taking vengeance, and has incurred grievous guilt, and avenged themselves upon them," therefore, thus says the Lord GOD, "I will also stretch out My hand against Edom and cut off man and beast from it. And I will lay it waste; from Teman even to Dedan they will fall by the sword. "And I will lay My vengeance on Edom by the hand of My people Israel. Therefore, they will act in Edom according to My anger and according to My wrath; thus they will know My vengeance," declares the Lord GOD.

Obad. 10-14, "Because of violence to your brother Jacob,You will be covered with shame, and you will be cut off forever. On the day that you stood aloof, on the day that strangers carried off his wealth,And foreigners entered his gate And cast lots for Jerusalem — You too were as one of them. Do not gloat over your brother's day, the day of his misfortune. And do not rejoice over the sons of Judah In the day of their destruction; Yes, do not boast In the day of their distress. "Do not enter the gate of My people in the day of their disaster. Yes, you, do not gloat over their calamity in the day of their disaster. And do not loot their wealth in the day of their disaster. And do not stand at the fork of the road to cut down their fugitives; and do not imprison their survivors in the day of their distress. “

We all should have some Godly fear. Yes, it does cut both ways.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

[SpeakersCorner]

Excellent point and corresponding verses, Hope.


SC

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Hope

A poster replied,

"No, I don't think it cuts both ways on this thread. We reacted to talk about positive things because it is inappropriate on this thread. For example, no matter how good a family is or how many positive things there are about it, when child molestation is discovered, it is not appropriate for family members to want to somehow balance that bad by pointing out the good things about the family.

Child molestation, wow!!!

I disagree with the poster in blue above.

There is nothing wrong with trying to balance a point by injecting something positive.

There is something wrong with trying to avoid a point by injecting something positive.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Igzy

...There is something wrong with trying to avoid a point by injecting something positive.

This is the point Jane was trying to make. Please read her whole post (in blue) in context. Injecting something positive on this thread was avoidance and inappropriate.

Nell

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Nell

Injecting something positive on this thread was avoidance and inappropriate.

Positivity doesn't necessarily equal avoidance. Attempting to avoid does. There's a difference.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Positivity doesn't necessarily equal avoidance. Attempting to avoid does. There's a difference.

Originally Posted by Thankful Jane

Mine in blue.

Igzy,

Please read the original post which I have provided the link above. It puts what Jane said in context. The bold in Don's post was added by him, not by Jane. Context is important.
Nell

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Nell

Igzy,

Please read the original post which I have provided the link above. It puts what Jane said in context. The bold in Don's post was added by him, not by Jane. Context is important.
Nell

Nell, I've read it. What is it you want me to realize that you don't think I do?

[Cal]

Matt,

I really think you need to consider researching and writing a formal paper explaining from top to bottom, front to back, your beliefs about idolatry in the LCs. And I think you would do well do submit such a paper for review by a trained theologian. I just think the format here make everything come out too piecemeal to be appreciated.

I'm serious. This is obviously something you feel very strongly about and it seems to be too broad in scope to fit into this forum in a way people can get their heads around. It seems to not be getting traction and I think the reason is that it requires a lot of things to be defined, it requires a lot of pretext, before the main point can be appreciated. It could be a book actually, I think.

Igzy

[Hope]

Originally Posted by Nell

Igzy,

Please read the original post which I have provided the link above. It puts what Jane said in context. The bold in Don's post was added by him, not by Jane. Context is important.
Nell

Hi Nell,

My bad that I failed to point out that I added the bold type to high light the phrases on which I was commenting. I will do better next time.

But other than a failure to acknowledge I was the one marking the bold text, what was the difference? What am I missing?

Also I am curious and waiting for Matt to point out the mistake of using the passages about Edom as a warning against piling on when the Lord is judging His people. Frankly, many times I feel there is too much piling on. We all saw it in the lc done by WL in public meetings. I saw him pile on in private meetings. Some of us witnessed dear saints piled on in our own assembly and in private type fellowships.

Why were John Ingalls and John So among others writhen out of the annals of the LC? They were attacked and others with whom they had fellowshiped were deemed worthy of being razed down to the foundation and any positive testimony or memory erased. I am so sad to say so but sometimes I witness right here a piling on and blanket dismissal toward anyone who does not join in 100% in judging 100% everyone and everything from the LC, LSM past.

I am also in tune with OBW as to the lack of value of broad sweeping generalizations of judgments. Furthermore, I am not seeing any balancing appeals to mercy. It seems that the Lord almost always tempered justice and judgment with mercy. Here are a few verses. (Please do not just write me off as trying to dodge or deflect personal responsibility or accountability.) I believe we are all responsible to judge righteously and to show mercy.

Matt 5:7, Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

James 2:13, For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

James 3:17-18, But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace. NASB


Nell, I appreciate any call to honor proper context. Good Job. Context and correct details should be important to me and I hope they are. This helps me stay accurate and minimize any personal agenda.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by Hope

Could it be that the use of such explosive language as “child molestation” would have the effect of wiping out any testimony that was there? Could it be that contending that four churches with all their elders present was for the purpose of completely discrediting all leadership and all churches in the Texas area?

Dear Hope,

Are you suggesting that this was the motivation behind what I wrote?

Thankful Jane