The Psalms are the word of Christ

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by aron

Well, it was good medicine for me. It helped me to realize that not everyone thought I was such a swell guy. And even more, it made me realize that yes, words can hurt. So maybe, just maybe, my words were also hurtful to others, and I should try to tone down my rhetoric.


Yes. Like the political candidates are told over and over by their advisors: "Stay on the message." Our message is Jesus Christ, not some doctrine to wrangle and accuse each other over.

God loved us so much that He sent His Only Begotten Son (Jo 3:16); should we not also love one another? I have to remind myself of this again and again. If the other person doesn't "feel the love" then my message is vain.

I know in a lot of WL's Psalms footnotes I didn't feel the love, but rather dry and empty rhetoric. I should not likewise get snared into dispensing the tree of knowledge.

Life in Christ is a journey and a learning process. When we see the "Light" our zealousness, passion and excitement to share to others what we have seen, what we have been taught by the Spirit of Christ, these things sometimes gets the best of us. We want them to get on board, to leave the old behind, to drink from the Fountain of Living Water again... BUT...most people past the age of 35 (?) get comfortable and set in their ways. It takes the Holy Spirit of God to shake them up...to wake us all up.

Boy...have I learned that the hard way and have taken my lumps in the head.

Thankfully, God covers our mistakes and He makes all things new.

Blessings to all,
Carol G

[aron]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Life in Christ is a journey and a learning process. ... BUT...most people past the age of 35 (?) get comfortable and set in their ways. It takes the Holy Spirit of God to shake them up...to wake us all up.

Sister Carol,

It is good to get older. It took Moses 80 years to wake up and hear God's voice. But one day, there it was.

A few concluding words on Psalm 18. First, it was a reprint of the poem in chapter 22 of the historical narrative of 2 Samuel. It seems that many scholars don't think that David actually wrote all of the psalms ascribed to him; many psalms simply say, "of David", which could mean "about David" or "regarding David" or "in the manner of David". One commentary I read basically mocked the idea that David could have written Psalm 57 while hiding in a cave, for example. They say that the various introductory inscriptions arguably could have been inserted years or even centuries later.

But it's pretty hard to say that David didn't write Psalm 18, and that he didn't sing the words to God as the heading states. In fact, given that it is the representative sample in the historical book 2 Samuel, it could be held up as a template for David's poetic writing. Remember Peter's quote in Acts 2, that David was saying, in effect, "You will not let me rot here in the grave" and that this was fulfilled in his heir the Christ.

My point is that Psalm 18 presents a theme which is ubiquitous in David's poems, of an oppressed righteous man, crushed under persecution, threat and mortal danger, yet whom God will not abandon. Again, David is merely the type, and Jesus the fulfillment. What David seems to miss is that this suffering servant of God will not only be redeemed because of his clean hands (Psa 18:19,20), but His righteous suffering will redeem all of Israel, even all of humanity.

BUT... it is actually implied (to me) in the accompanying narrative of battle: the champion of Israel, David the son of Jesse, goes forth and slays the seemingly undefeatable giant of Gath, and all of the army of the Philistines runs away in fear and shock. David was such a warrior that an entire army would fall back before him: "Who wants to fight David? Not me! You fight him!" So through one man's heroics a people was saved.

Likewise, John 11 says,

49 Then one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, “You know nothing at all! 50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”

51 He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, 52 and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.

Lastly, Psalm 18 contains another theme I've noticed, that of burial in water. Why David was fascinated with drowning I don't know, but he used the motifs often. "I was at the bottom of the sea; seaweed wrapped around my head" (Jonah 2:5). David may have been fascinated with the Jonah prayer (I assume Jonah preceded the Psalms?).

I haven't done a systematic survey of the Psalms but I notice that drowning under a flood (cf Noah?) is a common theme; notable because David was neither sailor nor fisherman. Here the theme emerges in verses 4 and 16: "torrents of destruction" and "he drew me out of deep waters". And notice how Psalm 18:15 "The valleys of the sea were exposed and the foundations of the earth laid bare" compares to Jonah 2:6 as well: "I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever". It is as if David was "buried" under enemies, yet his prayer still rose to God.

As mentioned earlier, I'd just begun considering this psalm; I claim no experience nor expertise. Merely a few remarks made in passing.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by aron

It is good to get older. It took Moses 80 years to wake up and hear God's voice. But one day, there it was.

"If only I knew back in the day what I know today" It is! ...if we are abiding in Christ, learning from our experiences and His Word, walking in S/spirit. We are supposed to grow wiser. I hope I am. I hope we all are. I do know most people in the world and most religious people I know have not changed. That is why we are called to be Light to the world. That their eyes, ears and hearts may be opened to the Love of Christ and His Ways.

it is actually implied (to me) in the accompanying narrative of battle: the champion of Israel, David the son of Jesse, goes forth and slays the seemingly undefeatable giant of Gath, and all of the army of the Philistines runs away in fear and shock. David was such a warrior that an entire army would fall back before him: "Who wants to fight David? Not me! You fight him!" So through one man's heroics a people was saved...........


As mentioned earlier, I'd just begun considering this psalm; I claim no experience nor expertise. Merely a few remarks made in passing.

In the last few years, I have been learning to connect the OT with the NT. Psalms while comforting and encouraging is very prophetic and also points to the last days of the church age, the days we are living in.

Not to move off topic, I am simply making an observation.. Most likely in the 7 yr Trib especially the latter half, the type of giants found in Genesis 6 and the type David fought called the Nephelim will emerge. (Why do we suppose there is so much horrific scientific experimentation in cloning and weird breeding.)

The point is...Lee had tunnel vision. All he saw was "God's economy in the LC. He wanted to 'clone' the church to his vision. When we learn to look at the Scriptures through God's Eyes, He removes the veil.

Carry on. :-)

Blessings,

Carol G

[aron]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

...Lee had tunnel vision. All he saw was "God's economy in the LC. He wanted to 'clone' the church to his vision.

For quite a few years after leaving the local churches, I was still a ministry drone, because I pretty much saw everything through Lee's tunnel vision. Even if I was no longer participating, it remained in my mind as the "ministry of the age."

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

When we learn to look at the Scriptures through God's Eyes, He removes the veil.

As long as I felt that I had scaled the high peaks of Zion, then God didn't have much to say to me. However, once I began to realize that I was veiled, blinded... only then did God begin speaking to me in His Word.

I am still blind, at least largely. But God is speaking... "The Word is nigh thee, in thy heart and in thy mouth..."

[aron]

Psalm 18 contains another theme I've noticed, that of burial in water. Why David was fascinated with drowning I don't know, but he used the motifs often. "I was at the bottom of the sea; seaweed wrapped around my head" (Jonah 2:5). David may have been fascinated with the Jonah prayer (I assume Jonah preceded the Psalms?).

Here is another example of the water burial theme:

Psalm 42:7 Deep calls to deep in the roar of your waterfalls; all your waves and breakers have swept over me.

Jonah 2:3 You hurled me into the depths, into the very heart of the seas, and the currents swirled about me; all your waves and breakers swept over me.

It seems either Jonah saw himself living out the psalmist's vision, or vice versa. And the image of being buried in deep waters appears fairly often in the Psalms for some reason.

Thus we can see two textual witnesses of Jesus' experience within the earth. "Just as Jonah was 3 days and nights in the belly of the whale, so shall be the Son of Man three days and nights in the heart of the earth."

Arguably those are the three most important days in history. So to have a kind of corroborated record, even if it's in impressionistic poetry, should be of some interest.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

all your waves and breakers swept over me.

It seems either Jonah saw himself living out the psalmist's vision, or vice versa.

I admit to knowing nothing of etymology. The phrase repeated in both Psalm 42 and Jonah 2 might have been coincidental; it might have been a stock phrase which was used often in Semitic conversation.

Also, the Psalms had a long formative period. The oldest psalm might date from Moses or even earlier, with the last one being completed some time after the exile. So you had centuries of opportunities for these writings to be modified. Therefore guessing who borrowed from whom, if at all, is probably a wasted exercise for an amateur such as myself.

Originally Posted by aron

And the image of being buried in deep waters appears fairly often in the Psalms for some reason.

Again, the operative phrase here is "for some reason." It may be for no reason; it may be for reasons known only to God. And there may be more pervasive and important themes in the Psalms than sinking into the watery depths.

But the imagery is evocative, and given Jesus' own self-identification with the Jonah theme it is worth noting. My ignorant speculations are not really that important. What has been important for me was to point out that the cavalier way in which WL treated the Psalms was grossly inadequate. If my own musings have at least hinted at the riches here, that is good enough.

[james73]

Originally Posted by aron

Here is another example of the water burial theme:

Psalm 42:7 Deep calls to deep in the roar of your waterfalls; all your waves and breakers have swept over me.

Jonah 2:3 You hurled me into the depths, into the very heart of the seas, and the currents swirled about me; all your waves and breakers swept over me.

It seems either Jonah saw himself living out the psalmist's vision, or vice versa. And the image of being buried in deep waters appears fairly often in the Psalms for some reason.

Hi Aron, it's all good stuff, here's a comment not on Psalm 18, but on the water theme....

I was just reading John Shelby Spong on the origin of the miracles on the NT... well it's a long story, but he points to Psalm 77 as being a likely source of the story of Jesus walking on water. Spong's theory, take it or leave it, is that the NT writers had absolutely no way to discuss the experience of Jesus in normal human language so they borrowed heavily from the only "God language" they knew, the scriptures, in particular the psalms. I guess in some ways that's different topic from what Aron is talking about, that the psalms point to Jesus in a prophetic way- I feel either way it's still pretty powerful to see Jesus in Psalm 77:19 like this: especially after all the "burial at sea" here is one who walks through the sea unscathed...

Psalm 77:19 Your path led through the sea, your way through the mighty waters, though your footprints were not seen.

[aron]

Originally Posted by james73

...either way it's still pretty powerful to see Jesus in Psalm 77:19 like this: especially after all the "burial at sea" here is one who walks through the sea unscathed...

I don't remember looking at Psalm 77, but I will now. That is a pretty evocative verse. "Your path led through the sea" makes me think of Moses and the Israelites in the Red Sea. I had not thought about that as an inspirational source for the poet to draw on. But in hindsight it seems obvious.

Because the poetic language is often not specific as to time, place, and person, we can interpret with it as we wish. Contemporary Christian consensus as to its meaning might not easily emerge. That's why I like to look at the NT examples of scriptural interpretation: why I keep coming back to Peter using Psalm 16 in his Pentecost speech, for example. It gives us an interpretational template. And the writer of Hebrews likewise. How did these people approach the text? What did they draw out of it, and why?

When I look at Psalm 77:19, I feel that God is speaking to us. It is wonderful! Somehow, Christ is being revealed, and is revealing His Father and our Father. My mind cannot comprehend but my heart is burning. The scriptures are opening.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

I don't remember looking at Psalm 77, but I will now. That is a pretty evocative verse. "Your path led through the sea" makes me think of Moses and the Israelites in the Red Sea. I had not thought about that as an inspirational source for the poet to draw on. But in hindsight it seems obvious.

Psalm 77:10 Then I thought, “To this I will appeal:
the years when the Most High stretched out his right hand.
11 I will remember the deeds of the Lord;
yes, I will remember your miracles of long ago.
12 I will consider all your works
and meditate on all your mighty deeds.”

13 Your ways, God, are holy.
What god is as great as our God?
14 You are the God who performs miracles;
you display your power among the peoples.
15 With your mighty arm you redeemed your people,
the descendants of Jacob and Joseph.

16 The waters saw you, God,
the waters saw you and writhed;
the very depths were convulsed.
17 The clouds poured down water,
the heavens resounded with thunder;
your arrows flashed back and forth.
18 Your thunder was heard in the whirlwind,
your lightning lit up the world;
the earth trembled and quaked.
19 Your path led through the sea,
your way through the mighty waters,
though your footprints were not seen.

20 You led your people like a flock
by the hand of Moses and Aaron.

It stands to reason that the afflicted poet would look back, as he did in verses 10-12, and remember the helps from God long ago. And this would prominently include the Exodus miracles, explicitly referenced in verses 15 and 20.

Just like Abraham was the proverbial father of promise, so Moses could be seen as the figure pointing to miraculous deliverance. Surely God's earlier work would be remembered and held up as a present appeal in distress.

Earlier I noted the theme of the righteous man suffering and being delivered by God in the Psalms. Of course this theme is not limited to psalmic literature, but is found often in the OT. But for us it's prominent because David's life was full of violent struggle, often against incredible circumstances, including betrayal by former comrades, and in his struggles "we see Jesus", who was seen as the coming royal seed of David, the promised deliverer. David's victories pointed to Christ's victory over death, which became the salvation for all who were under the curse of death. Therefore, these poetic songs, told in great detail, especially inner detail ("I love You, LORD" -- Psa 18:1), become referent points to our Father.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

the poetic language is often not specific ... Christian consensus as to its meaning might not easily emerge. That's why I like to look at the NT examples of scriptural interpretation: why I keep coming back to Peter using Psalm 16 in his Pentecost speech, for example. It gives us an interpretational template...

Let me put it another way. Peter had spent three incredible years with Jesus the Nazarene; then He was gone. Now they all tried to make sense of it, and to relay the meaning of their experiences to others who were presently incomprehensible.

Thus, the appeal to scripture. How many times in the Gospels do we see "as it was written" or "so that the scripture might be fulfilled"? This is why Peter, attempting to explain the outpoured Spirit to the incredulous throng, referenced Psalms 16 and 110. God had poured out His Holy Spirit, and this Spirit allowed men like Peter to look into scripture and see Jesus. The Spirit allowed men to see Jesus as fulfillment of scriptural type, and the same scripture allowed them to show others “the promised Holy Spirit... which you now see and hear” (Acts 2:33).

It seems to me that WL’s method was different. He was coming from a post-Protestant, post-Bretheren historical viewpoint, and what Peter had thought of his experiences with Christ was not as valuable to WL as God's current speaking "oracle". A hermeneutical template was being created, and the thoughts of Peter and James, who had actually met with Jesus, were not as important to WL's understanding scripture as the new template had become. Where Peter and James (for example) could not be lined up with current exegesis, they were either ignored or pushed aside.

As was much in the OT; for example, since Psalm 34:20, “not one of His bones should be broken” had been cited in the gospel account it was allowed to be valid revelation, while the rest of the psalm, speaking of the same righteous person (!) was dismissed as vain. The current “recovered” interpretation was allowed to over-ride both OT and NT scriptures.

Even Jesus’ gospel “oikonomia” (translated e.g. as “stewardship” in Luke 16) was downplayed, in favor of Paul's epistolary oikonomia, which to WL seemed to entail a lot of shouting of biblically-themed words, which shouting would eventually make us God in life and nature but not in the Godhead. Jesus’ food – “to do the will of My Father” – wasn’t stressed too much. In fact obedience might even be a stumbling if we took it too seriously!

Eventually, years after leaving all of this, I began to ask myself what it might have been like to be David, there in a cave, in a rocky crag, in a battle. The more I felt David’s emotional core, his "spirit", come through his writing, the more I could also feel the heart of Jesus Christ, David's Son of promise. And likewise, the more I pursued John and Peter and James’ subjective experiences (their Christ) as expressed in the text, the more I could make sense of my own experiences. I could see Jesus as they saw him, and as they saw Him in the scriptures which they all knew so well.

And yes, that certainly includes Paul as well. But Paul’s ministry certainly didn’t render anyone else’s null and void, valued only as a touchstone to “the apostle of the age”. If that was the case, why was John ministering from Patmos, years after Paul had exited the scene? No, the scriptures were bigger than Paul, bigger than John or Peter or James. Only Jesus could fill them all.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

Psalm 42:7 Deep calls to deep in the roar of your waterfalls; all your waves and breakers have swept over me.

Jonah 2:3 You hurled me into the depths, into the very heart of the seas, and the currents swirled about me; all your waves and breakers swept over me.

It seems either Jonah saw himself living out the psalmist's vision, or vice versa. And the image of being buried in deep waters appears fairly often in the Psalms for some reason.

Thus we can see two textual witnesses of Jesus' experience within the earth. "Just as Jonah was 3 days and nights in the belly of the whale, so shall be the Son of Man three days and nights in the heart of the earth."

Arguably those are the three most important days in history. So to have a kind of corroborated record, even if it's in impressionistic poetry, should be of some interest.

Now, should we reject the poetic "water burial" images in Psalm 42 (and Psalm 18) as "natural" because the psalmist was a sinner, or because he expressed contempt for his enemies instead of blessing them? Because the NT receives similar verses as indicative of Christ. See e.g. Psalm 45 "your arrows are sharp in the heart of your enemies". And David's failure (to resurrect in Psalm 16) being explained by Peter in Acts 2 as overcome by his vision of the promised Seed. David's failure does not preclude Christ's victory.

So if we insist on rejection, does our rejection follow the pattern of reception in the NT, both in gospel, even at Jesus' mouth, and later in Acts and epistles? If we are "adding to God's word" as Evangelical says, then isn't calling the two living birds of Leviticus 14 "Christ" because they are clean and fly above the earth also "adding to God's word"?

WL did stuff selectively.. when he did it, it was okay, but when someone else did it they were "departing from the pattern of the NT" or some such.