The Psalms are the word of Christ

[aron]

I would like to make 3 more comments. I will start with another verse from Psalm 119: verse 120.

"My flesh trembles in fear of you; I stand in awe of your laws." (NIV)

This verse, like most of Psalm 119, gets no comment or cross-reference in the RecV. In no way, evidently, is this indicative of the coming Christ, who "In the days of His flesh... offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety." (Heb. 5:7 NASB)

In Psalm 119 WL saw, at best, the piety of the psalm writer. Not the piety of Christ.

Second, in spite of numerous NT references to Jesus Christ as revealed "in the flesh" in the psalms, where WL did see Christ in the text it was as "Jehovah God". As in Psalm 23: "Jehovah is my shepherd, I shall not want, etc". To Lee, this meant that Jesus/Jehovah is our shepherd. Perhaps, but what about the Father shepherding the Son, in the days of the Son's flesh (incarnation)? Evidently not considered.

If WL was not forced by existing NT exposition to read the text as showing us Christ in the flesh (incarnated, suffering, resurrecting, glorified), then he either saw the writing as indicative of the psalmist's natural (uninspired) inclinations or at best a revelation of Jehovah/Jesus. But Jesus the persecuted and suffering and faithful Nazarene was not sought for.

I would like to correct this tendency by using the hermeneutic (interpretive strategy) which Peter displayed in his speech, standing with the eleven: "Brothers, we all know that this word (by David, of being saved from corruption) could not have been fulfilled by him, as we have his grave with us to this day. It was rather fulfilled by his seed, Jesus, the Son of David, as we have all witnessed." This is my paraphrase from memory; see Acts 2 for the exact words.

I argue that the Psalms are most importantly the words of Jesus Christ our Lord, not merely words about Christ or to Christ (though both do exist) and even less the words of a well-meaning, sinful psalmist. To WL they were predominantly the latter. He really only saw Jesus Christ where he was absolutely forced to.

Third, I would like to go back to the idea of keeping the law, and being righteous. I believe this was the big stumbling for WL; he dismissed this, and therefore the bulk of the text, out of hand. I say not so fast: we do see Jesus clearly fulfilling the law, down to the proverbial 'jot and tittle', and we do see Jesus telling His disciples that "if you love me you will keep my commandments". Faithfulness and obedience are NT characteristics as well. If we believe in Jesus the righteous one we are supposed to try and follow him.

Today, our "law" is the law of the Spirit of life, and not the law of letters engraved on stone. But our law still exists. The Father speaks, and we (should) obey. "Your word, O Father, is eternal; it stand firm in the heavens" Psalm 119:89

In Psalm 1, the introductory psalm, Lee categorically states that no one can keep the law. I do understand his point but this unfortunately became his basis for effectively dismissing the whole book. His dismissal, however, couldn't make it through the text of Psalm 1, much less the next 149 chapters. To the 'righteous man' in Psalm 1, WL retorts, "There is no righteous man". Then, when the "assembly of the righteous" appears later in the same chapter, he ignores it. But the psalmists' "assembly of the righteous" is quoted by the author of the epistle to the Hebrews! It is the church!

But WL already said that "there is none righteous; no, not one" so he had to dismiss the assembly of the righteous. And so on for the next 149 chapters; in order to keep his premise WL essentially had to rid the Psalms of any meaning.

[ABrotherinFaith]

Originally Posted by aron

In Psalm 1, the introductory psalm, Lee categorically states that no one can keep the law. I do understand his point but this unfortunately became his basis for effectively dismissing the whole book. His dismissal, however, couldn't make it through the text of Psalm 1, much less the next 149 chapters. To the 'righteous man' in Psalm 1, WL retorts, "There is no righteous man". Then, when the "assembly of the righteous" appears later in the same chapter, he ignores it. But the psalmists' "assembly of the righteous" is quoted by the author of the epistle to the Hebrews! It is the church!

But WL already said that "there is none righteous; no, not one" so he had to dismiss the assembly of the righteous. And so on for the next 149 chapters; in order to keep his premise WL essentially had to rid the Psalms of any meaning.

Aron,
Isn't our righteousness in Christ and not from the law? When Paul says, "as it is written, there is none righteous, no not one" he's showing us that the law cannot save us because we can't keep it, but faith in Christ makes us righteous because He kept the law, He fulfilled it.
Abraham was accounted as righteous...how does WL address that? Solely with respect to the law no one (save Christ) can be considered righteous. With respect to faith, all those who believe in God and Christ can be considered as such. The assembly of the righteous is the church as it stands in faith and in Christ. I think you're right on target when you say that the Psalms are Christ's words just as much as they are about him. To dismiss any of them is, I think, to miss the mark entirely. Such a slight misstep leads one far far away.
This is a great thread. Thanks to everyone for helping me work through my understanding of Psalms and its place in the Bible.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

Isn't our righteousness in Christ and not from the law? When Paul says, "as it is written, there is none righteous, no not one" he's showing us that the law cannot save us because we can't keep it, but faith in Christ makes us righteous because He kept the law, He fulfilled it.

We do believe that Christ fulfilled the law, and that He then said to us, "A new commandment I give unto you." We are discipled to follow Him. This "new law" is of course fulfilled by the faith of "the new man" in Christ alone and not our "old man" in the flesh. Nonetheless the aspiration of the seeking OT psalmist to obey God's commands is not merely a "natural" aspiration, vain and a distraction to us. On the contrary; perhaps we can see that aspiration fulfilled, even in a higher "interior" or "celestial" level as in Christ Himself.

For example, look at the epistle to the Hebrews' characterization of Jesus. The author only heard about Jesus from others (2:3), yet says "We see Jesus"... where? Among the shadows of the scriptures, penned by the ancients, the writer sees the shining light; among the OT types and figures, the fulfillment emerges. Look at the detailed picture of Jesus that comes forth in this epistle -- surely this is a challenge to us, and an invitation!

Abraham was accounted as righteous...how does WL address that? Solely with respect to the law no one (save Christ) can be considered righteous. With respect to faith, all those who believe in God and Christ can be considered as such.

Agreed. And yet none of these basic tenets of the Christian faith, such as salvation by faith, implies that we should downplay the psalmists' devotions as 'natural' or 'fallen'. Jesus never said nor implied this, nor did Paul, nor did any of the NT writers, nor church Fathers that I am aware of. That kind of diminshment, I believe, came millenia later, mostly in reaction to the Catholic abuse of 'works'. Moreover, I am not aware of any Christian teacher of the last 500 years who so thoroughly disparages the Psalms (among other scriptures) as WL did. It was as if he trusted his "God's economy" template more than the actual words themselves.

The assembly of the righteous is the church as it stands in faith and in Christ. I think you're right on target when you say that the Psalms are Christ's words just as much as they are about him. To dismiss any of them is, I think, to miss the mark entirely. Such a slight misstep leads one far far away.

Amen. But I don't think we need to force anyone to "see Jesus", a la Hebrews 2:9, too extensively in the words of the OT text. If I get an insight into some aspect of the 'hidden life' of Jesus from some seemingly obscure verse (and the Psalms are loaded with obscurity) that doesn't need to be a point of doctrine, and contention toward others who "don't get it". OBW mentioned earlier on this thread about the peril of reading too much into the text, and treating possibility as fact. At the same time, I believe WL sold us far short of the goal by rejecting so much scripture. He not only would not enter in, but forbade any of the rest to enter (Matt 23:13). We know how he mocked those who were singing the Psalms as being unbalanced and departing from the NT revelation.

Ironically, one could say of the Psalms, a WL said about the Trinity, "It's not for doctrine... it's for dispensing". It's for experience, foremost; Jesus is not something for merely for interpretation or understanding. When you experience Jesus Christ it changes your life. The experience changes your outlook, your thinking, and your behavior. And I believe that Christ is right there in the Psalms, waiting for us.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

Aron,
Isn't our righteousness in Christ and not from the law? When Paul says, "as it is written, there is none righteous, no not one" he's showing us that the law cannot save us because we can't keep it, but faith in Christ makes us righteous because He kept the law, He fulfilled it.
Abraham was accounted as righteous...how does WL address that? Solely with respect to the law no one (save Christ) can be considered righteous. With respect to faith, all those who believe in God and Christ can be considered as such. The assembly of the righteous is the church as it stands in faith and in Christ. I think you're right on target when you say that the Psalms are Christ's words just as much as they are about him. To dismiss any of them is, I think, to miss the mark entirely. Such a slight misstep leads one far far away.
This is a great thread. Thanks to everyone for helping me work through my understanding of Psalms and its place in the Bible.

So then, if I understand correctly, the only way Psalm 1 can fit with the rest of the Bible is if it is specifically referring to Christ.

1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
1:2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
1:3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
More
1:6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

"The way of the righteous" would have to refer to Jesus who said "I am the way". This would have to refer to the way of the cross.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

So then, if I understand correctly, the only way Psalm 1 can fit with the rest of the Bible is if it is specifically referring to Christ.

1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
1:2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
1:3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

1:6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

"The way of the righteous" would have to refer to Jesus who said "I am the way". This would have to refer to the way of the cross.

I think you are certainly closer than WL was. Look also at "fruit"(v.3): his footnote said that this referred only to material blessings and was vain. Again, he ignores the many NT references to "fruit" (gospels, epistles, and Revelation), which are spiritually oriented. A connection seemingly never occurs to him: I think because it would upset his whole premise.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by aron

I think you are certainly closer than WL was.

Psalm
110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. Jesus asked how Christ can be the son of David if David calls Him Lord. Likewise we should ask, what do you think of the Psalms, whose words are they? Are these the words of Christ or the words that are lightly esteemed? Witness Lee said "This shows us that Psalm 1 is good, but it was written with a wrong concept." Are these words a stone that the builder refused? Psalm 118:22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. Or are these words the testimony of God? According to Hebrews 2:6 Psalms are the testimony of God.

Sometimes He testified with a loud voice crying "My God, my God why hast thou forsaken Me".

Other times He confided 41:9 "Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me." Even His dying words 31:5 "Into thine hand I commit my spirit" were His testimony recorded in Psalms.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

are these words the testimony of God? According to Hebrews 2:6 Psalms are the testimony of God...

For years I thought the Psalms were shallow and void of revelation. Turns out I was shallow and void of revelation.

Not only in the Psalms, but also in much more, these ancient writings beckon us to explore the Good Land Himself. The heights, the depths, the breadth unknown and unknowable... our hearts yearn... The journey waits...

[UntoHim]

This reminds me of Witness Lee's ignorant and blasphemous "treatment" of the Epistle of James. The garbage Lee spewed out here alone disqualifies him from being considered anything but a false teacher at best, and really more of a fraud who showed his ignorance and abject disdain for the living Word of God. He showed it in his "teachings" in the Psalms and he showed it even more with what he spoke about James.

http://www.ministrysamples.org/excer...CAL-ITEMS.HTML

VIII. BESIDES THE ABOVE LACKS,
THE EPISTLE OF JAMES BEING DEVOID
OF THE FIVE FOLLOWING CRITICAL ITEMS

Besides the above lacks, the Epistle of James is devoid of the five following critical items concerning the believers' spiritual experiences in life, without which the New Testament becomes only a book of doctrine and no longer a book of experience in the divine life.

A. The Union and Minglingof the Believers with the Triune God

The believers are united and mingled with the Triune God (Matt. 28:19; Eph. 4:4-6).

B. The Believers Being Joinedto the Lord as One Spirit

First Corinthians 6:17 says that we believers are joined to the Lord as one spirit. This means that we become Him and He becomes us. This is not merely union but also mingling.

C. The Believers' Regenerated Spirit

James is devoid of the truth concerning the believers' regenerated spirit (Rom. 8:16; 2 Tim. 4:22).

D. The Discernment of the Believers' Spirit from Their Soul

James is also devoid of the revelation concerning the discernment of the believers' spirit from their soul (1 Thes. 5:23; Heb. 4:12). A sister may want to go shopping for items which are on sale out of the desire from her soul. But another part of her being tells her not to do this. This is her spirit. We need to learn to discern our spirit from our soul.

E. Living by the Spirit and Walking according to the Spirit

James also lacks the thought of living by the Spirit and walking according to the spirit (Gal. 5:16, 25; Rom. 8:4b).
All the lacks and defects in the Epistle of James mentioned above are evidences that the Christian perfection stressed by James is not one up to the standard of the high level of the genuine Christian perfection as revealed in the New Testament, but one which is inadequate in fulfilling God's New Testament economy and which is even mistaken under the vague vision concerning God's eternal economy.
The New Testament, which is of twenty-seven books, is composed of mainly nine items. If we see them, we understand the New Testament. These items are the economy of God, the all-inclusive God with His fullness, the all-inclusive Christ with His riches, the all-inclusive Spirit with His supply, the divine life which is Christ Himself as the embodiment of the Triune God, Christ's death, Christ's resurrection, and the Body of Christ. All these items consummate the New Jerusalem (the final item) as the ultimate goal of God. The economy of God is a plan to produce the Body of Christ through the Triune God (the Father, the Son, and the Spirit), through the divine life, and through Christ's death and resurrection. The building up of the Body of Christ will consummate the New Jerusalem. The entire New Testament covers these nine items. All the other things in the New Testament are like the leaves of a tree, whereas these items are the fruit.
The book of James touches only two of the above items: the begetting Father and the indwelling Spirit. But even these items are spoken of by James in an inadequate way. Thus, the book of James is devoid of the main items in the New Testament.
(Crystallization-Study of the Epistle of James, Chapter 5, by Witness Lee)

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Other times He confided 41:9 "Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me."

This verse is indelibly etched in my soul. Years ago I was horribly betrayed by someone particularly close to me. The pain inflicted upon me over the course of months and years was far more than I could hope to bear. There were many nights when I would wake up in fright, after being tormented in my sleep.

This verse was a tremendous anchor against the onslaught of my storm at sea. Jesus Himself was betrayed by His closest friend, Judas. I came to realize that Judas was His own personal valet, arranging his daily meals and accommodations, and that is why he held the "purse" of the offerings given to the Lord. At the last supper, it was John to one side and Judas to His other, eating "of My bread." It is no wonder, since Jesus and Judas were so close, that none of the other disciples even suspected that Judas could betray Him. Judas may not have been the most spiritual one, but he was no doubt the Lord's closest companion as He traveled and ministered.

Our Savior tasted the bitterest of human suffering so that He could sympathize with us in ours. He allowed Judas to betray Him with an affectionate kiss in the night as He prayed at Gethsemane. Other than to fulfill this prophecy, the Lord didn't need to be betrayed by His best friend. But He was, and He was betrayed just for me. And all the others who have endured this during their own journey.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Our Savior tasted the bitterest of human suffering so that He could sympathize with us in ours. He allowed Judas to betray Him with an affectionate kiss in the night as He prayed at Gethsemane. Other than to fulfill this prophecy, the Lord didn't need to be betrayed by His best friend. But He was, and He was betrayed just for me. And all the others who have endured this during their own journey.

Think of how David was betrayed not once, but twice: once when Saul turned against him in jealousy, and once when his son Absalom rebelled. In both cases some of David's "closest companions" suddenly left him and went over to what they thought was the "winning side". What did that feel like to be abandoned and betrayed thus?

"He who eats with me lifts up his heel against me" indeed. But what was WL's take on Psalm 3, that covers David's experiences during Absalom's rebellion?

"Natural"

David's own son rebelled against him, many of his closest allies betrayed him, but WL wasn't interested.

[ABrotherinFaith]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

So then, if I understand correctly, the only way Psalm 1 can fit with the rest of the Bible is if it is specifically referring to Christ.
...
"The way of the righteous" would have to refer to Jesus who said "I am the way". This would have to refer to the way of the cross.

I don't think it's the only way it can fit in the Bible. It fits in the Bible because it's the Word of God, and I'm not adding the caveat that it is although it's written from a man's fallen perspective or something like that.
It fits because it should, in some way, bring us to Christ, just as our study of the law should.

The Bible shows one man who did the things mentioned in the verses you quoted--Jesus Christ. Before Christ came, righteousness came through faith in God (Abraham). Before Christ came the way of the cross wasn't there to offer man anything. Now, after Christ's death, His way (obedience to the Father) is our way through believing in Him and that is our righteousness.

I just can't understand how anyone can read Psalms and say some of it is worth less, is there to teach us how NOT to be/act. Same people who dismiss James I guess.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

The Bible shows one man who did the things mentioned in the verses you quoted--Jesus Christ. Before Christ came, righteousness came through faith in God (Abraham). Before Christ came the way of the cross wasn't there to offer man anything. Now, after Christ's death, His way (obedience to the Father) is our way through believing in Him and that is our righteousness.

I just can't understand how anyone can read Psalms and say some of it is worth less, is there to teach us how NOT to be/act. Same people who dismiss James I guess.

Yes, Abraham's faith was accounted to him as righteousness when he obeyed God and offered his son Isaac up in a figure. However, this "way of righteousness" was authored by Jesus and perfected by Jesus. Jesus said that He was the way and that "no man comes unto the Father but by Me".

So the verse that Witness Lee had trouble with in Psalm 1 was 1:6 "For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish."

This way, to my mind, must refer to Jesus and it can also be referred to as "the way of the cross". Abraham is an example of one man that took this way and it was accounted to him as righteousness.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by aron

I would like to make 3 more comments. I will start with another verse from Psalm 119: verse 120.

"My flesh trembles in fear of you; I stand in awe of your laws." (NIV)

Based on the idea that this must refer to Christ, "standing in awe of your laws" could refer to the idea that according to the Law of God He offered up His son to die on the cross to fulfill all righteousness. A path that Jesus chose to take.

That is certainly a view that would cause my flesh to tremble in fear of God and to also stand in awe of His laws.