The Wild, Wild MidWest - All things Great Lakes Area and Canada

[Cassidy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Nothing personal, my friend, but based on every event I have witnessed and studied in my 30+ years inside the LC, and almost a decade outside the LC since I left, this conclusion of yours is pure and unadulterated gobbledygook, which M-W defines as "wordy and generally unintelligible jargon." It may make sense to you, but not one instance provides it with the stamp of validity. Take your explanation of events to a thousand learned Christians on the street, and not one will understand what you are talking about.

No one has ever excluded themselves from the fellowship because they were not standing on the ground of oneness. It just has not happened that way.

Ohio,

There are several fallacies in your argument. Your first fallacy of argumentation is that you have been there and I have not therefore you are the expert and I am not. Then, you've layered that with a second fallacy in argumentation that goes along the line of "I don't understand, it's all gobbledygook to me, therefore it can't possibly be true". You have used that with at least one other poster recently. Your third is that you suggest that you could know what a "thousand learned Christians on the street" think. Since that is not possible it is a fallacy to introduce this to shore up your case.

It would be equally fallacious for me to argue that I have been there longer than you so I won't go down that path and neither of us know what a "thousand learned Christians on the street" would think so we can ignore that one too.

However, I'll will clarify the point about the ground of oneness. The ground of oneness does not embrace those who take just any basis for fellowship. Rather the ground or stand or basis, pick your term, is oneness. Your notion that Paul N. would need to embrace everyone on your reconciliation list regardless of their stand to prove your idea of the ground of oneness is fanciful. It is not even logical. The reason it is not logical because either you choose to take that particular ground, stand, or basis, or you don't. If you don't you exclude yourself from that basis, that is, you have a different basis for fellowship. This is not hard to understand so I do not accept your argument that it is gobbledygook, on the contrary, that just seems like you are unable or unwilling to make a compelling argument.

I would say the ground of oneness is a narrow way and not the broad one you suggest.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Cassidy

Ohio, There are several fallacies in your argument. Your first fallacy of argumentation is that you have been there and I have not therefore you are the expert and I am not.

Not at all Cassidy. I made no comment about your expertise concerning the Recovery. I only mentioned my tenure so that the reader knows that I was once steeped in that system, and now have left. My comment was more about what I know to be true. It's obvious to me that you are more than familiar with Recovery teachings and history.

Originally Posted by Cassidy

Then, you've layered that with a second fallacy in argumentation that goes along the line of "I don't understand therefore it can't possibly be true".

Not at all friend. I do understand what you posted completely. I spent many years there and am well versed in their ideology. I had hoped my point was clear. I am saying that your reasoning here is "wordy and generally unintelligible jargon." You and I may have learned this from the ministry of WL and the Blendeds, but now I am telling you that, though it sounds spiritual and intelligent, it actually makes no sense to the Bible-reading public. It is simply insider jargon designed to deceive us. Your wordy instruction has never matched the facts of history.

Originally Posted by Cassidy

Your third is that you cannot possibly know what a "thousand learned Christians on the street" think therefore it is pointless to introduce this to shore up your case.

It would be equally fallacious for me to argue that I have been there longer than you so I won't go down that path and neither of us know what a "thousand learned Christians on the street" would think so we can ignore that one too.

Now you're nit-pickin. I am saying that no Christian I ever met outside the Recovery speaks like this. These concepts are totally foreign to the body of Christ, except for exclusive sects like the Recovery or the Brethren. The reason they are foreign to the body of Christ is because there is no Scriptural support for them. If you did have some support, you would now be dumping that on me.

Try to understand that WL made up these so-called "principles" to justify his numerous and spurious quarantines. John Darby used these same principles in the 19th century to justify his actions in expelling Newton, Muller, and anyone else who refused to goosestep to his marching orders. Read Brethren history and you'll understand.

Originally Posted by Cassidy

However, I'll will clarify the point about the ground of oneness. The ground of oneness does not embrace those who take just any basis for fellowship. Rather the ground or stand or basis, pick your term, is oneness. Your notion that Paul N. would need to embrace everyone on your reconciliation list regardless of their stand to prove your idea of the ground of oneness is fanciful. It is not even logical. The reason it is not logical because either you choose to take that particular ground, stand, or basis, or you don't. If you don't, you exclude yourself. This is not hard to understand so I do not accept your argument that it is gobbledygook, on the contrary, that just sounds like you are unable or unwilling to make a compelling argument.

I would say the ground of oneness is a narrow path and not the broad one you suggest.

The narrow way is not the ground of oneness, it is the way that leads to life. Our ground is not oneness with the body, it is Christ. Listen to what Paul teaches us in Ephesians 4.1-6

Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

Listen to Paul's admonition "with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love." This is so absolutely contrary to the intolerant and judgmental attitude of WL. This section spells out the fundamentals of our oneness in the Spirit, and Lee's "ground of locality" is no where to be found. So it's no wonder that the Recovery today has become so intolerant and judgmental like her founder. They must be intolerant in order to defend their extra-biblical standards which are applied to all Christians.

Look at our recent history. The Blendeds applied these false standards firstly to TC and the GLA, and then to DYL and Brazil, quarantining and shaming them publicly. Then local discontents become trained by LSM operatives at DCP in order to confiscate church assets via lawsuits. This occurred church after church, while the saints violated clear Biblical mandates with impunity. LSM used their phony principles about "the ground" to divide churches and shipwreck the saints in their conscience, and you want me still to believe that this way is the "narrow path."

Then TC applies these same phony standards to John Myer in Columbus. I'm telling you the system is sick. They absolutely need to reconcile. Reconciliation alone will deliver them from the blindness of their exclusive ways. Start by loving the brothers the Lord put you with! Isn't loving your neighbor the 2nd commandment? Start by dropping these phony ordinances which the Lord abolished on the cross. Don't talk about loving the new ones you just met, how about the ones you were with for 10, 20, 30, 40 years?

[Cassidy]

-2

Thanks for your response and clarifications, Ohio. I will read it a few times before responding.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Cassidy;

I will clarify the point about the ground of oneness. The ground of oneness does not embrace those who take just any basis for fellowship. Rather the ground or stand or basis, pick your term, is oneness......

I would say the ground of oneness is a narrow way and not the broad one you suggest.

Shalom & Blessings Cassidy,

When I first got saved and became part of the LC, the saints "in my locality", were reading and studying the Word in the KJ or NASB. The fundamental Truths ingrained into us were the Assurance of Salvation, the Power of the Precious Blood of the Lamb, Sanctification through the Living Word and the Blood of Jesus and the church being the Body of Christ.

The Lord Jesus was the Ground of Oneness. This is why we chanted over and over "O Lord Jesus".

For my first 2 months in the LC, my fellowship with the saints and their fellowship with me revolved around Christ. The meetings were about the Word of God.

The ground of Oneness was Christ the Solid Rock. All other ground was sinking sand. We stood on THAT Ground.

But as I was introduced to the "Life study" messages, Brother Lee's teachings became the ground of oneness.

We stopped trusting the Holy Spirit, the Life Giving Spirit to open the eyes of our understanding. We relied on Witness Lee to reveal the Word of God to us. No one searched the scriptures for themselves as we are instructed in the Holy Bible.

After all WL was the apostle of the age. He was the "Paul" of our generation. WL was accountable to -NO ONE-. And God forbid, we found error in his teachings. That would bring about expulsion and create division in the church. In the end, the saints were stifled.

The ground of "oneness" became the "life studies", the RcV, and whatever Lee's "revelation" was. In the end, many left. Those that attempted to respectfully confront WL were ostracized. Couples divorced because of their allegience to Lee. Families were/are divided not for their stand for Christ but for their stand on being one with Lee and his teachings.

In 1975-76, there was no official "Lord's Recovery". We were the Local church and Christ and the church. The local churches under Lee's directive had elders and deacons but were on par with the saints. This was true in San Diego.

That is one aspect of the LC to this day I respected in retrospect. I have been to many a "church", where the pastor does not fellowship/mingle with the congregation. I do not know if this still holds true in the LRC today.

Regardless, that behavior no matter how good, is not the the basis of the ground of oness. Christ Jesus, the Living Word is and always will be the Solid Ground of our oneness, the Solid Ground we stand on. In being One with Him, the Body of Christ is fitly framed together.

You are correct in that the Ground of Oneness is narrow, for we must be crucified with Christ, dying to self, and resurrect with Him in Newness of Life.

Blessings and Peace in Christ Jesus,

Carol Garza

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Shalom & Blessings Cassidy,

When I first got saved and became part of the LC, the saints "in my locality", were reading and studying the Word in the KJ or NASB. The fundamental Truths ingrained into us were the Assurance of Salvation, the Power of the Precious Blood of the Lamb, Sanctification through the Living Word and the Blood of Jesus and the church being the Body of Christ.

The Lord Jesus was the Ground of Oneness. This is why we chanted over and over "O Lord Jesus".

For my first 2 months in the LC, my fellowship with the saints and their fellowship with me revolved around Christ. The meetings were about the Word of God.

The ground of Oneness was Christ the Solid Rock. All other ground was sinking sand. We stood on THAT Ground.

But as I was introduced to the "Life study" messages, Brother Lee's teachings became the ground of oneness.

We stopped trusting the Holy Spirit, the Life Giving Spirit to open the eyes of our understanding. We relied on Witness Lee to reveal the Word of God to us. No one searched the scriptures for themselves as we are instructed in the Holy Bible.

After all WL was the apostle of the age. He was the "Paul" of our generation. WL was accountable to -NO ONE-. And God forbid, we found error in his teachings. That would bring about expulsion and create division in the church. In the end, the saints were stifled.

The ground of "oneness" became the "life studies", the RcV, and whatever Lee's "revelation" was. In the end, many left. Those that attempted to respectfully confront WL were ostracized. Couples divorced because of their allegience to Lee. Families were/are divided not for their stand for Christ but for their stand on being one with Lee and his teachings.

In 1975-76, there was no official "Lord's Recovery". We were the Local church and Christ and the church. The local churches under Lee's directive had elders and deacons but were on par with the saints. This was true in San Diego.

That is one aspect of the LC to this day I respected in retrospect. I have been to many a "church", where the pastor does not fellowship/mingle with the congregation. I do not know if this still holds true in the LRC today.

Regardless, that behavior no matter how good, is not the the basis of the ground of oness. Christ Jesus, the Living Word is and always will be the Solid Ground of our oneness, the Solid Ground we stand on. In being One with Him, the Body of Christ is fitly framed together.

You are correct in that the Ground of Oneness is narrow, for we must be crucified with Christ, dying to self, and resurrect with Him in Newness of Life.

Blessings and Peace in Christ Jesus,

Carol Garza

By definition WL's teachings cannot = the ground of oneness. An insignificant number of Christians are familiar with these teachings. If the LRC makes WL's teachings the metric by which we measure oneness then they have left the ground of oneness and are a division.