Witness Lee has Seven Gods

[aron]

Originally Posted by Terry

...I had read in an email or in a post from another forum that Elden Hall was later used as storage for some of the suits that didn't sell.

I am also vague on the details. Besides the World's Fair thing, I remember reading that some local church meeting halls got plied with chairs from an unsuccessful business venture.

Two (hopefully final) points: one is the idea of apostasy. Apostasy, as I see it, is with someone who is not heretical, and has the basics of the faith. You look at their "confession", and it seems orthodox, maybe even quite orthodox.But there is a long trail of evidence that something just isn't right. They confessed the faith, but eventually they got sidetracked by something. Power, money, fame, ego, control; whatever.

So I believe I am possibly looking at apostasy here. All the theological "i's" are dotted and "t's" are crossed, but there is also a long and unmistakable trail of wreckage. The fruit is testifying as well as the "What we believe" statements. All those "storms" and "rebellions" are lined up, and "speaking in one accord".

Second point is what Jesus said to Peter at the end of John's gospel: "They are going to bind you and take you somewhere you don't want to go." Lee maybe repented of his earlier Oriental failures, and tried to serve the Lord. Then one day in the U.S., a brother came up with an sizeable inheritance, and tried to lay it at Witness Lee's feet, and suddenly "Daystar" was born.

It was like a bank robber that got caught, and did the prison time, and was restored, and one day he walks by a bank and looks over and says, "Wow. Look at all that money and their security is terrible! What an easy mark..." and he begins to think, and he gets taken somewhere he doesn't want to go.

Like a dog returning to his vomit, like a sow going back to the mud; Lee got the potential for easy money placed before him and he couldn't resist. The Gospel Huckster was reborn, and he got taken somewhere he didn't plan on going.

Same with me. I did my time in the Local Church system. I got taken somewhere I didn't want to go. So I accept it. It is part of my journey. It was a lesson I needed to learn. I thank the Lord for all of my experiences.

[OBW]

I think that both the chairs and tennis rackets were attempts to make something besides motor homes in the plant they set up for Daystar. As you recall, the sales company went belly-up (that is the part the members were invested in) while the plant made some money and survived (the part that Lee was invested in).

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

I am also vague on the details. Besides the World's Fair thing, I remember reading that some local church meeting halls got plied with chairs from an unsuccessful business venture.

Two (hopefully final) points: one is the idea of apostasy. Apostasy, as I see it, is with someone who is not heretical, and has the basics of the faith. You look at their "confession", and it seems orthodox, maybe even quite orthodox.

But something isn't right. There is a long trail of stuff that just isn't right. They confessed the faith, but eventually they got sidetracked by something. Power, money, whatever. So I believe I am looking at apostasy here. All the "i's" are dotted and "t's" are crossed, but there is a long trail of wreckage there. The fruit is testifying as well as the "What we believe" statements. All those "storms" and "rebellions".

First. WL bought a myriad of chairs from Taiwan. That's 10,000 total. He told TC, "you just bought a thousand chairs." TC called my elder in Columbus, "you just bought a hundred chairs." The elder called me up, "go to Cleveland and get our new chairs." Then I spent the next 5 years gluing and screwing those junky particle board chairs back together so we had a place to sit.

Second. Great points about having orthodox confessions and unorthodox behaviors. This is why I place great responsibility on the leadership code of ethics, and pay little regard for statements of faith. WL and his team of editors at LSM took great pains to publish book after book, attending to every jot and tittle, but when it came to keeping an eye on their illustrious "Office Manager," they were all like Tommy, that "deaf, dumb, and blind kid."

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

WL bought a myriad of chairs from Taiwan. That's 10,000 total. He told TC, "you just bought a thousand chairs." TC called my elder in Columbus, "you just bought a hundred chairs." The elder called me up, "go to Cleveland and get our new chairs." Then I spent the next 5 years gluing and screwing those junky particle board chairs back together so we had a place to sit.

Now that, my friend, is a funny story. This was exactly what I was referencing when I talked about being bound and taken somewhere that you didn't want to go.

Peter was too cool for school, so he went fishing. Jesus told him where his journey was going to take him (John 21:18). Lee was too cool for christianity, and he convinced us that he had found a shortcut. Remember that song with the refrain "We love the church life" -- the line that said "It may be that you willl find with us a better way." How we all congratulated ourselves that we had found a better way, a shortcut to the throne! But eventually we realized that actually we had been bound, and taken somewhere that we didn't want to go.

Ohio, I totally love that story. Thanks for sharing. You made my day.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Now that, my friend, is a funny story. This was exactly what I was referencing when I talked about being bound and taken somewhere that you didn't want to go.

Peter was too cool for school, so he went fishing. Jesus told him where his journey was going to take him (John 21:18). Lee was too cool for christianity, and he convinced us that he had found a shortcut. Remember that song with the refrain "We love the church life" -- the line that said "It may be that you willl find with us a better way." How we all congratulated ourselves that we had found a better way, a shortcut to the throne! But eventually we realized that actually we had been bound, and taken somewhere that we didn't want to go.

Ohio, I totally love that story. Thanks for sharing. You made my day.

I never thought anything about those ugly gold chairs was funny. The backs of those chairs started falling apart right away. I remember finding some old syringes at work, and bought some messy two-part epoxy. We got an assembly line going with the saints, first disassembly, next injecting epoxy into the elongated hole of the particle board back and clamping it together, then reinsert larger screws and pray for the best.

I was actually proud of my efforts to salvage that junk. When I visited other LC's with those same chairs, theirs were the worse for wear, but with my improvements, they outlasted every other church. That's when I found out that some other LC's updated their chairs with soft comfy cushions. Cleveland's were nice, but Akron's were the best, and we were still sitting on particle board.

I should have let them fall apart.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I never thought anything about those ugly gold chairs was funny.

Forgive me if I made light of your experience. I just felt it was God's mercy, combined with His sense of humor. James the brother of John was beheaded with a sword, and eventually Peter also was girded and taken somewhere he didn't want to go.

In your case, it was gluing particle-board chairs back together. God is merciful.

Question (unanswerable perhaps): Did Witness Lee initiate the "myriad of chairs" arrangement, or was this pushed onto him by one of his 'business associates'? I wondered if maybe someone gave him a 'get out of jail free' card at some point, and this was the payback? Or was this a further fallout of the Daystar fiasco, with a factory that needed to produce something, as OBW suggested?

I am wondering because I wonder if Lee the merchant led Lee the Bible expositor, or vice versa. Was the merchandising of the Gospel an outgrowth of a desire for the spread of the Gospel, or was the Gospel seen as a lucrative niche for a would-be merchant? Perhaps the two are so intertwined that unraveling them is not worth attempting.

With Lee the chair 'salesman', and Lee the installer of his neer-do-well son (sorry, 'unspiritual') as the head of his 'publishing company', I see Lee the businessman. Like a line from Marlon Brando in the Godfather movie: "I am a businessman." Oh, really? What business do you do? "Business". Really, chairs or motor homes or rainbow tracts is irrelevant. It is business. In the end it's all about business.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Forgive me if I made light of your experience. I just felt it was God's mercy, combined with His sense of humor. James the brother of John was beheaded with a sword, and eventually Peter also was girded and taken somewhere he didn't want to go.

No apology needed. You just got me going, reminiscing about the endless hours I sat on those gold chairs.

IIRC, the original purchase of those chairs coincided with the construction of the Ball Road facility in Anaheim. The hall was readied for the first Revelations training in August 1976.

Perhaps others were familiar with the purchase details.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

No apology needed. You just got me going, reminiscing about the endless hours I sat on those gold chairs.

IIRC, the original purchase of those chairs coincided with the construction of the Ball Road facility in Anaheim. The hall was readied for the first Revelations training in August 1976.

Perhaps others were familiar with the purchase details.

Well, at the very least it separates them in my mind from the Seattle World's Fair, 1962. Perhaps further details are irrelevant, besides noting that Lee was trafficking in manufactured goods in the U.S. over a span of at least 14 years.

To which one might well reply, "What is the crime in buying and selling manufactured goods?" and I would say, Look at the way goods were sold. Lee calls Titus Chu and says, "You just bought 1,000 chairs." And so on down the line. Nice, huh? Amway would love to have such a marketing arrangement.

On a related note, in my former locality, in the back room of the meeting hall, there were stacks and stacks of cardboard boxes full of what they called "Rainbow booklets". Every book of the Bible got its own color. Ephesians was pink, Colossians was yellow, Galatians was green, etc. Hundreds, probably thousands, of pastel-colored booklets just sitting there, piled up in cardboard boxes and gathering dust. I remember asking what that was about and being told that one day they got a phone call from Anaheim: "You just bought 10,000 Rainbow Booklets".

At that time I was a rank newbie, and I remember thinking how the "saints" let down the "ministry" by not getting out there to sell, sell, sell! Gradually, I realized how dispiriting it was to have these amateurish, marketing "moves from the Lord" continually sweeping through town, each at the latest whim/inspiration of the 'oracle'.

When you think about it, Lee did change over time. In 1962 he didn't have a captive U.S. market. By 1976 he did.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

First. WL bought a myriad of chairs from Taiwan. That's 10,000 total. He told TC, "you just bought a thousand chairs." TC called my elder in Columbus, "you just bought a hundred chairs." The elder called me up, "go to Cleveland and get our new chairs." Then I spent the next 5 years gluing and screwing those junky particle board chairs back together so we had a place to sit.

Would these be those gold colored inter-locking chair that became standard furniture for any localities meetings? If so, the chairs were bought with the intent localities would be billed for the chairs. Local churches would have new chairs and Lee's investment in (Overseas Christian Stewards?) would make a profit.

In my employer's ethics training this scenario is considered a conflict of interest. The alternative would be to have purchased chairs from another vendor.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

Would these be those gold colored inter-locking chair that became standard furniture for any localities meetings? If so, the chairs were bought with the intent localities would be billed for the chairs. Local churches would have new chairs and Lee's investment in (Overseas Christian Stewards?) would make a profit.

That would be them.

I guess at the time I was naive enough to think that WL bought a large quantity to get a better price. Little did I know that he took a commission too.